Zelda's Falling Nair true combos into Up B

[Anthonio WIlliams]

Zelda's a monster now.

 

[evmaxy54]

It's kinda unreliable sooooooooooooooooooooooo

Alsoooooooooooooooooo

Why is this a topic?

Alsoooooooooooooooooo

This isn't anything new either, she could do it before the patch

 

[Anthonio WIlliams]

Oh, my bad

 

[Zylach]

It's not entirely unreliable. I think he might be referring to the fact that the elevator can be DI'd so it's not a guaranteed kill. Also, if you hit with the very last hitbox of nair, you'll send the opponent away instead of down into the elevator startup so knowing the timing for it is crucial but it's definitely reliable especially if you know how to time your nair to always drag the opponent down and can react to the opponent's DI which is incredibly difficult but possible.

Also, I don't recall being able to do it before the patch. If we could than very few people were talking about it. Furthermore, the patch has made it exactly 3 frames and 1% KBG easier thereby making it guaranteed if you do it like you ought to.

But, in response to the OP, we Zelda mains have known this since the patch came out. We've got a very dedicated lab team here so we got on that ASAP. It's good that other people are figuring this out. It means people won't necessarily see Zelda as a read-only killer anymore and she may garner more respect out of this.

 

[ZombieBran]

Having reliable or even near reliable kill set ups is going to become pretty much required once players get better if your character is not overstuffed with safety like Sheik or Pikachu. Reading and punishes can only do so much. So despite the damage loss from D-throw follow ups, I feel the Nair change is a significant buff for Zelda in a game where stocks are harder to finish off.

btw there definitely is a vacuum effect on Nair, it's pretty hilarious seeing it in effect. Was that always there or what? I never noticed it, and I've used nair a lot since Brawl.

On prepatch FF Nair combos; I didn't try them often. They usually got out of hitstun before Zelda could do anything with the land lag and miniscule stun. If they were there then they were few and far between.

 

[Zylach]

I never remember there being a vacuum effect and have only seen it rarely in this new patch. I assumed it was something I just hadn't been paying attention to pre-patch.

 

[Meru.]

So this isn't even half as good as I had thought it would be. It's very unsafe in the Nair is shielded, somewhat incosistent (they pop up too high if you hit them with the first hit) and the UpB can be DI'ed out of. I feel you're usually better off doing a Fair/Bair for punishes from the air.

also http://smashboards.com/threads/zeld...e-use-this-instead-of-making-a-thread.406166/

 

[evmaxy54]

It's not entirely unreliable. I think he might be referring to the fact that the elevator can be DI'd so it's not a guaranteed kill. Also, if you hit with the very last hitbox of nair, you'll send the opponent away instead of down into the elevator startup so knowing the timing for it is crucial but it's definitely reliable especially if you know how to time your nair to always drag the opponent down and can react to the opponent's DI which is incredibly difficult but possible.

Also, I don't recall being able to do it before the patch. If we could than very few people were talking about it. Furthermore, the patch has made it exactly 3 frames and 1% KBG easier thereby making it guaranteed if you do it like you ought to.

But, in response to the OP, we Zelda mains have known this since the patch came out. We've got a very dedicated lab team here so we got on that ASAP. It's good that other people are figuring this out. It means people won't necessarily see Zelda as a read-only killer anymore and she may garner more respect out of this.

No, sometimes it just doesn't combo (& it's due to how high the last hitbox you get with Nair is or something). The elevator itself should be the stock regardless if the first hit was DI'd or not.

Myself or someone will need to check out which characters Nair combos are reliable on; I know ZSS gets hit hard by near enough everything from it, but on Bowser, not even Dtilt or Dsmash is a guaranteed combo (it's just p reliable at best).

Also, @ M Meru. congrats on becoming a Red Tyrant Moderator! =3

 

[Zylach]

No, sometimes it just doesn't combo (& it's due to how high the last hitbox you get with Nair is or something). The elevator itself should be the stock regardless if the first hit was DI'd or not.

Myself or someone will need to check out which characters Nair combos are reliable on; I know ZSS gets hit hard by near enough everything from it, but on Bowser, not even Dtilt or Dsmash is a guaranteed combo (it's just p reliable at best).

Also, @ M Meru. congrats on becoming a Red Tyrant Moderator! =3

I literally went on to FG the day after posting that and found out how unreliable it can be. I had character being popped up too high for the followup and some characters being popped away. Granted, it requires good timing and I think my timing was off (FG does that). Basically, if you input the nair as you start falling from the apex of your jump and don't FF, you'll get it every time on a standing opponent of Mario height. I had shorter characters just never get hit as I fell though. I saw the sparkles just dance around the character as they stood there taking no damage. Also, Yaaay is right in that it's definitely not safe to approach with nair as 18 frames of landing lag is still bad. That said, I usually use it as a punish just like everything else. If I'm in the air, I'll try and condition the opponent to shield by landing with nair just outside of grab range which is possible. Then, under the same circumstances, I'll double jump instead of land with a nair and see if they try for the shield grab anyway in which case I can FF nair to a guaranteed elevator. I have found it increasingly difficult to do this against smart opponents. It's more helpful when the opponent is in the air so we can drag them down with FF nair into the elevator. Just be careful as our air game is beaten out by most other characters' air games.

 

[Alacion]

This is so 2014.

 

[Zylach]

Since this is the closest thread to what I want to talk about right now, I'm gonna use it despite the fact that this may be a tad off topic. I just don't wanna create a new thread for this thought. With the changes to nair in the most recent patch, I've been looking into incorporating it much more into my gameplay. The higher damage on the front end and the slightly lower landing lag have encouraged me to focus more on Zelda's aerial game (Let's face it, she didn't really have one pre-patch as her aerials are beaten by everyone else's aerials save for Mac... maybe). The reason for this is my recent experience with high mobility characters such as Sheik and ZSS have made me realize that Zelda needs some form of mobility in order to even put up a fight against these kinds of characters. Having an aerial game is how most characters are able to stay mobile alongside fast movement speed and AT's like jump cancelled glide toss. Basically, Zelda only has two things that can keep her mobile without being incredibly dangerous at the same time (LC FW for instance). Those two options lie in her aerial game with autocancelled nairs and autocancelled dairs. The immediate problem with this is that nair doesn't have the disjoint necessary to beat out most aerials so she ends up trading or being beaten by most other aerial attacks and trades with nair never end in her favor. As for dair, the fact that it needs to be sweetspotted, only hits opponents directly below her, and is useless against aerial opponents makes it nearly useless in these kinds of MU's.

So, in order to make Zelda more mobile, we have to find unconventional uses for these moves so we don't have to find ourselves in situations where we are mobile but still vulnerable. I've actually been using nair more in the past week than I have at any other point in the game's life trying to find some interesting ways to use it so I'm no longer a sitting duck. One very simple use for it is as a pseudo-approach option in which we SH nair over a grounded opponent thereby landing behind them with no lag. The nair itself won't affect shielding or short opponents but fairly often the opponent will assume that I ought to be landing with lag and go for a grab or attack which means we can take advantage of their approach with a Nayru's Love or SH bair. If the opponent is tall enough and isn't shielding, then it's free percent for us and we can followup from autocancelling that nair with another nair, utilt, dash attack, etc. I've been doing this on FG recently which has led to big nair chains (similar to Palutena fair chains) and I've been able to carry some opponents off the stage like this. These chains are, by no means, guaranteed but since we are autocancelling the nairs, it's fairly safe against opponents that don't have combo-breaking attacks like Luigi's nair or counters.

The second thing I've been experimenting with is SH rising nair, oftentimes from an empty hop or just plain running up to the opponent as if I were about to dash attack. The standard followup from an empty hop is to grab and a smart opponent will realize this and either spotdodge or roll to get away before the grab comes out. Using a SH nair as a mixup to grabs after empty hops is a safe option when whiffing a grab means a punish. Furthermore, we can do a simple SH nair from empty hop if we suspect the opponent will spotdodge so we can FF with it to punish the spotdodge or hit them with Nayru's Love, dtilt, or grab when we've autocancelled the nair and their spotdodge invincibility has ended. SH nair is one of those weird ways of approaching an opponent while also not approaching them at the same time. Typically, Zelda has two options when she runs up to a grounded opponent and both are very unsafe which is why her approach game is nonexistent: Dash attack and grab. Both can actually be spotdodged and swiftly punished which I find a lot of opponents do when I want to create a, supposedly, 50/50 situation between grab or dash attack. Instead, they spotdodge and my 50/50 situation just turns into pain. By throwing in a SH nair, we are completely safe whether they spotdodge, block, or do nothing. With a SH, we are also free to move to either side of the opponent (retreat or flank). This is especially useful when the opponent is obsessed with shield grabbing our dash attacks. Instead of using the dash attack, we rise with a nair which can catch tall opponents and can FF with it if they still go for the shield grab so we can punish the whiff.

Both of those techniques are used against grounded opponents but the really tricky stuff comes when the opponent is also in the air. Zelda loses to most characters in the air which is why it's typically risky for her to challenge them here. The important thing about nair when it comes to challenging other characters' aerial games is that it has a disjoint, albeit a really tiny one. This means spacing with nair is incredibly important since it can be the difference between a successful aerial challenge or a terrible trade/failure entirely. Utilizing this tiny disjoint in our nair means we can't be overly aggressive with it. Never go balls deep with nair because we will almost always lose unless we're certain we can do it (typically when we're using it to punish a whiffed laggy aerial). One way that I personally try and space with it against an aerial opponent is by showing aggression by dashing forward from the ground and jumping towards the opponent forcing them to cover themselves with an aerial attack or an airdodge. The moment I initiate the jump forward, however, I'll initiate the nair as well but hold back on the control stick thereby feigning the approach and instead retreat with it against opponent with aerial attacks that aren't disjointed (Luigi for instance) we should be safe against their attack as we're now retreating instead of approaching but we also have a chance at catching their extended hurtbox with our minimally disjointed hitbox. Because we'll be autocancelling the nair, we can followup another nair (an autocancelled nair will never drag the opponent down for a FW followup unfortunately since the final hitbox sends the opponent away and that hitbox needs to come out in order for the nair to autocancel) or catch their landing with one of our many multihit attacks, especially usmash now that it kills early. The great thing about this technique is that we can choose to delay the nair so we catch the opponent but don't autocancel the nair meaning we can drag them down into a FW kill which is a lot safer than approaching a grounded opponent with a non-autocancelled nair.

I've also started using nair offstage a little more than dair for gimps since I can drag the opponent down and away from the stage after they've used their second jump making it nearly impossible for most of the cast to recover while I'm perfectly safe with my outrageous recovery. There are two reasons I've started doing this. The first one is that nair is a multihit so it has more potential at catching an opponent out of an airdodge. The second is that, if I do catch the opponent, it's just as effective at killing most characters as dair so long as I FF with it. The key here is the FF. Zelda can recover from FF nair offstage so don't be afraid to do it because chances are, our opponents can't recover from it. This is my favorite way to kill the new characters now, especially Roy. I've even been able to gimp Mewtwo with this technique.

The reason I choose nair over dair despite the fact that they both autocancel and nair doesn't even hit short grounded opponents is because the hitbox lasts much longer on nair, doesn't have a sweetspot, and, therefore, can more reliably do higher damage should it actually land since sourspotted dairs do nothing.

A lot of what I've been experimenting with was possible pre-patch but the buffs to nair in the recent patch have really encouraged me to use this move more. After everything I've found so far, I'm convinced that nair is one of Zelda's best moves. We're able to stay mobile with it, something that held us back in the metagame. We actually have somewhat of an aerial game with it. We have another gimping tool with it alongside dair. It acts as a hit confirm for our killing moves giving us kill setups. I feel like our nair is what can give us a shot against top players playing top characters.

Any thoughts on this, whether this is already a well known tool and I'm just behind the times, or additions to nair's usefulness is appreciated. I wanna unlock the full potential of this move and propel Zelda into top level play with this attack.

 

[MadCanard]

I've been having luck using falling Nair to FW as an edge guard. If I'm fighting an opponent that likes to get up from the ledge using any method but rolling, then it should be easy to catch them with this combo.

If they jump or stand up from the ledge its easy to catch them with a fast falling Nair -> FW

If they attack get up then hopefully you timed it right and you catch them with one of the hits of Nair (not the last one, cause that will send them flying...which isn't the worst thing). If you completely whiffed the Nair you may be able to catch their attack get up with an in place FW.

If they roll you won't hit them, but you can easily do a short angled FW to punish.

If everything fails you can just FW the heck out of there!

Just make sure you don't do the fast falling Nair directly on the edge. You need to do it about a Zelda's arm reach away from the edge otherwise the fast falling Nair will throw them down past the ledge.

 

[KarmaCastle]

The second thing I've been experimenting with is SH rising nair, oftentimes from an empty hop or just plain running up to the opponent as if I were about to dash attack. The standard followup from an empty hop is to grab and a smart opponent will realize this and either spotdodge or roll to get away before the grab comes out. Using a SH nair as a mixup to grabs after empty hops is a safe option when whiffing a grab means a punish. Furthermore, we can do a simple SH nair from empty hop if we suspect the opponent will spotdodge so we can FF with it to punish the spotdodge or hit them with Nayru's Love, dtilt, or grab when we've autocancelled the nair and their spotdodge invincibility has ended. SH nair is one of those weird ways of approaching an opponent while also not approaching them at the same time. Typically, Zelda has two options when she runs up to a grounded opponent and both are very unsafe which is why her approach game is nonexistent: Dash attack and grab. Both can actually be spotdodged and swiftly punished which I find a lot of opponents do when I want to create a, supposedly, 50/50 situation between grab or dash attack. Instead, they spotdodge and my 50/50 situation just turns into pain. By throwing in a SH nair, we are completely safe whether they spotdodge, block, or do nothing. With a SH, we are also free to move to either side of the opponent (retreat or flank). This is especially useful when the opponent is obsessed with shield grabbing our dash attacks. Instead of using the dash attack, we rise with a nair which can catch tall opponents and can FF with it if they still go for the shield grab so we can punish the whiff.

See, this is what I was saying when we were in the wisdom's weapons thread. Ways to cope with our weaknesses. Using SH FF Nair strings I've carried DK and Link off stage in 5-6 strings. SH Nair is incredibly strong, but also probably some of the hardest timings to get down without being too slow on the follow ups. I still get punished when I nair into a shield, though that's likely just me needing to practice nair spacing. SH is definitely the tech direction we need to start looking in, ESPECIALLY in aggressive matchups.

As well I always see you talking about our weak air game; while approaching wide spacing characters like Diddy/ZSS that dominate the air is suicide (unless we pull out the big Mind Game Guns with a mix up by engaging) I find nair beats almost anyone when spaced nicely, and with the pseudo vacuum it's seemed to pick up it makes it even scarier. I never really minded engaging mid air with most characters with obvious exceptions. And Love Jumps can be used in place of Nair. People almost never see mid air NL coming. And the glide has saved me from many a perilous Falcon Smash.

 

[MadCanard]

Has anyone been able to pull off this D-Tilt setup into fast falling Nair -> FW?

This video is titled true combo but I don't think the D-Tilt to Nair is.
https://youtu.be/yI6W7MkqjV8

I could see this being useful if you condition your opponent to air dodge after mid-high percent D-Tilts (or maybe even Down Throw) and then catching the air dodge with the fast falling Nair.

 

[ZombieBran]

Nair beats anything if you space it right because it has transcendent priority; it can't clash. It's very good, though just a bit more disjoint would be nice if it's going to remain our only aerial we can actually throw out.

 

[TheLegendaryFoxFire]

Nair beats anything if you space it right because it has transcendent priority; it can't clash. It's very good, though just a bit more disjoint would be nice if it's going to remain our only aerial we can actually throw out.

It has Transcendent Priority? I never knew that. I learned something new today. I guess that is why I never lost an air battle with Zelda with her Neutral Air before then/.

 

[Rickster]

I believe all of Zelda's attacks are disjointed and transcendent, except for Dtilt, Dsmash, Din's, Phantom, and Farore's Disappear. Farore's and Phantom are still disjointed, however.

I'm not sure about Ftilt and Kicks though. They probably are though.

EDIT: So apparently the sweetspots on her aerials can clank, but the sour spots can't. That's weird. The last hit of Usmash can also clank, but the move won't stop. Ftilt is disjointed and transcendent.

 

[BJN39]

I believe all of Zelda's attacks are disjointed and transcendent, except for Dtilt, Dsmash, Din's, Phantom, and Farore's Disappear. Farore's and Phantom are still disjointed, however.

I'm not sure about Ftilt and Kicks though. They probably are though.

EDIT: So apparently the sweetspots on her aerials can clank, but the sour spots can't. That's weird. The last hit of Usmash can also clank, but the move won't stop. Ftilt is disjointed and transcendent.

Actually it's the sour spot in LKs that clanks. Not the sweet-spot.

If the sweet-spot clanked it could technically cancel out a Samus charge shot due to damage ratio if placed perfectly LOL.

 

[Rickster]

Actually it's the sour spot in LKs that clanks. Not the sweet-spot.

If the sweet-spot clanked it could technically cancel out a Samus charge shot due to damage ratio if placed perfectly LOL.

Wait a minute...am I misunderstanding this then?

Spoiler

I think I'm going crazy

 

[BJN39]

Wait a minute...am I misunderstanding this then?

Spoiler

View attachment 68833

I think I'm going crazy

oop that's definitely an error in the thread. My b I'll go fix it.

Edit : Altered now. Sweet-spots were supposed to say NO and Sour-spots YES.

 

[Rickster]

Welp there goes my dreams of kicking projectiles out of the air with a cinematic 1.5x hitlag pause...oh well.

 

[Anthonio WIlliams]

oop that's definitely an error in the thread. My b I'll go fix it.

Edit : Altered now. Sweet-spots were supposed to say NO and Sour-spots YES.

what's that app?

 

[BJN39]

what's that app?

App? Rickster's image is just a phone (I think phone.) taken image from the Great Fairy Fountain thread here. I-if that's what you were asking about.

 

[Genuine_Angus_B33F]

Make Farore's Ladder guaranteed on Fast Fallers (Mega Man, DDD, Fox) and make Dins Fire worth using by giving it more control. Also make Phantom Unreflectable/Have more health.
I'd rather see Zelda balanced with more options than better frame data

 

[Zylach]

See, this is what I was saying when we were in the wisdom's weapons thread. Ways to cope with our weaknesses. Using SH FF Nair strings I've carried DK and Link off stage in 5-6 strings. SH Nair is incredibly strong, but also probably some of the hardest timings to get down without being too slow on the follow ups. I still get punished when I nair into a shield, though that's likely just me needing to practice nair spacing. SH is definitely the tech direction we need to start looking in, ESPECIALLY in aggressive matchups.

As well I always see you talking about our weak air game; while approaching wide spacing characters like Diddy/ZSS that dominate the air is suicide (unless we pull out the big Mind Game Guns with a mix up by engaging) I find nair beats almost anyone when spaced nicely, and with the pseudo vacuum it's seemed to pick up it makes it even scarier. I never really minded engaging mid air with most characters with obvious exceptions. And Love Jumps can be used in place of Nair. People almost never see mid air NL coming. And the glide has saved me from many a perilous Falcon Smash.

Nair doesn't beat out a lot of characters that we face often and I find it trading more often with really popular aerials. Examples of this include Sheik's fair, Captain Falcon's nair/uair, Fox's fair, Rosie's fair, Pika's fair, etc. I like nair but find that it's really difficult to space it effectively against characters that have truly strong air games. I've strung nairs together on people from one end of FG omega stages to the opposite blast zone but it's possible to get out of Zelda's nair strings which is why we call them strings and not combos. All it takes is some DI'ing away from one nair to get out of the other. Some characters are more vulnerable to this than others but a lot of characters can easily DI away and cover themselves with quick aerial to make us back off.

I do like the idea of mixing up SH's between NL and nair though both are punishable (NL much more so) if whiffed. Zelda has no safe aerials even though two of them autocancel because the autocancel window is late and she doesn't have ridiculously fast moves to cover herself when she lands anyway (Her fastest followup from landing is a 5 frame dtilt). I'll try and SH nair when I feel like I can get away with it but it's not as wonderful a tool as most other characters have (Mostly because of how laggy it is if not AC'ed).

Has anyone been able to pull off this D-Tilt setup into fast falling Nair -> FW?

This video is titled true combo but I don't think the D-Tilt to Nair is.
https://youtu.be/yI6W7MkqjV8

I could see this being useful if you condition your opponent to air dodge after mid-high percent D-Tilts (or maybe even Down Throw) and then catching the air dodge with the fast falling Nair.

That's actually my video that I uploaded the moment I did it. I got ridiculously excited because I thought it was a true combo. You're right, the dtilt to nair is not guaranteed. Basically, it's a reliable followup if the opponent chooses to:
a) Do nothing
b) Attack with a laggier attack than our nair
c) Jump
d) Airdodge which means we have to delay the nair

If the opponent DI's away, this becomes a lot trickier and it gives them more time to use an aerial against us or jump away. Don't think you shouldn't do this, though, as once you land the nair, as long as you get the timing right and read the opponent's DI of the initial ribbon of FW (If they decide to DI it), then it's a guaranteed kill starting around 80% on most characters depending on rage.

 

[Anthonio WIlliams]

App? Rickster's image is just a phone (I think phone.) taken image from the Great Fairy Fountain thread here. I-if that's what you were asking about.

oh ok lol