Zelda Vs. Sonic, the Matchup export. NOW! with MOAR Sheik!!

[Kinzer]

Hi There, I'm Kinzer from the Sonic boards, and I just want to let all of you know that back at my home board, our matchup thread has gotten up to #16 A.K.A. Zelda.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=122

The discussion starts there...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510

And the 11th post for you would be using Mario as an example of what we usually strive for.

We want to know anything and Everything you have to tell us about your character, we want to make sure that we send in our pet Hedgehogs into the warzone with as much accurate information as we can get.

We would prefer that you have some matchup experience. If you still want to contribute but have never fought a Sonic, please feel free to request a Wi-Fi duel in the matchup trhead, or one of the other respective threads. We wouldn't go and say that Sonic wins 80:20 over Zelda, so please play nice, we have quillls otherwise.

Sonic can be quite a complicated character for those who have never done their homework on him, and that's fine. If there is something you are unsure of about Sonic, please don't hesitate to ask, we will answer to our best efforts.

Some fun facts to start you off with:

ASC - Abbreviation for Aerial Spin Charge. Spin Charge is Sonic's Down-B, and as you mgiht know by now, ASC is just a SC...in the air...

Spinshot - Fakeout Sonic can do with his Side-B, gives him a big push forward, and for a short amount of time gives him the most aerial acceleration in the game. Usually used to get around projectiles like Lucario's Aura Sphere.

GTFOOSB - Short for "Get the @#$% out of mah Sonic Boards!", if any of us are telling you this, we're doing it wrong. Get Wolf to put those flamers in their place.

That's all for now, we'll be looking forward to seeing you in the matchup thread.

Edit: As of December, the Sonic boards are now discussing the full matchup, so tell us from EVERY aspect just how badly Sonic may lose out when Zelda applies Sheik into the battle.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll be sure to put some input tomorrow

let it be known I normally lose this matchup... becuase if I'm playing a sonic, it's normally shugo.

and shugo is amazing.

I've destroyed shugo before, but he's done likewise.

 

[-Mars-]

I've only played Sonics online so i'm not too qualified to discuss this matchup. The Sonic I play online is amazing though, Kai937 is a beast and he attends EC tournaments as well.

 

[Alopex]

This is Sonic's match. I play against very often offline against a good Sonic, and I always have to use Sheik.

I know this isn't the Sheik vs Sonic match-up, but I think most Zelda players will prefer to use Sheik against Sonic. It's just so much easier (at least for me...).

Zelda is slow. Sonic is fast. Din's Fire doesn't damage a Spindashing Sonic, it just pings with it. In general, Sonic has a good approaching game against Zelda, which is something Zelda isn't quite used to seeing. Plus Zelda is very floaty and Sonic doesn't really have any problems comboing her from below. And below Zelda is the safest place to be. Since Sonic has many tricks that rely on the opponent being throw above him, Sonics have it good with Zelda being very defenseless below her.
Her light weight means Sonic's UpB Uair combos will kill her that much easier.

Zelda has a much better ground game than Zelda, but Sonic is able to camp Zelda with ease while Zelda can't approach worth crap (this is becoming a common theme...). What gives Sonic the edge over other characters is the fact that he can actually approach her. Spindash mindgames work surprisingly well. Spindash UpB Dair, Spindash UpB Homing Attack, Spindash combos... the Spindash is what screws up Zelda's defense game.
Which is why I go Sheik. Needulls pwn Sonic wit eezy. And Nair pwns Homing Attack. Oh Sheik...

- If you're going to kill a Zelda though, don't do it from the ground. Plain and simple. Zelda will beat you. She has way more range and power.
- You want to UpB Dair into her sparingly. I know you guys love this, but Zelda's UpSmash wrecks your Dair.
- Sonic is medium weight and has a great recovery, so he can live longer than most people against Zelda.
- You can't gimp Zelda's recovery with a Dair to UpB like you can a lot of characters. She has too much recovery distance with Farore's.
However, timing a homing attack to hit Zelda at the Farore's start-up can be very effective. It is kind of hard to time, though. You need to read your opponent well.
- You don't want to use the Homing Attack when returning to the stage. A good Zelda will just time it so that you'll home yourself straight into a Lightning Kick.
- Your Dair is useful in getting you down to the ground quickly. This is good because it gets you away from being above Zelda much faster. And you'll land lagless if you're high enough, so there's not much drawback to using the Dair to flee to the ground.
- Be careful with you UpB recovery. The path is very easy to predict, and if you're coming from below the stage you just might end up putting yourself into an easy Lightning Kick spot.
- Grabbing Zelda is pretty key for Sonic since it's his best way of getting Zelda in the air, but Zelda's grab outranges Sonics, so this could be tricky.

So yeah... I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty of things, but this will do for now. I think you get the picture.

I'd say it's 60-40 Sonic.

I know my post makes it seem like Sonic has a bigger advantage, but Zelda's ground game really is that powerful in this case. A Zelda with proper spacing has more than enough ground advantages against Sonic to get the win. So it's Sonic advantage, but it's perfectly winnable by Zeldas. They just need to be very attentive to the Spindash approaches and try to punish accordingly.

 

[Alopex]

*sigh*
Stupid internet... apologies for double post.

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic camps Zelda? This is news to me.

 

[Alopex]

Everyone camps Zelda.
Doesn't mean they pressure her, though.
Isn't this something we both agreed on in NinjaLink's thread?

Sonic can camp Zelda, like every character can, but he can't force Zelda to approach, like only a few characters can.
But Sonic has a good approach game on Zelda instead. So it's actually kind of weird. Sonic will camp Zelda until HE'S ready to approach, as opposed to camping someone to make THEM approach.

 

[-Mars-]

Everyone camps Zelda.
Doesn't mean they pressure her, though.
Isn't this something we both agreed on in NinjaLink's thread?

Sonic can camp Zelda, like every character can, but he can't force Zelda to approach, like only a few characters can.
But Sonic has a good approach game on Zelda instead. So it's actually kind of weird. Sonic will camp Zelda until HE'S ready to approach, as opposed to camping someone to make THEM approach.

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game. Your logic makes no sense, your not camping me and i'm not camping you.........we're both just sitting there. I still have a projectile, a crappy one yes, but I still can fight long range.

In NinjaLinks thread, I agreed that the better characters that you always see in tournies camp her............Sonic is not one of those.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game. Your logic makes no sense, your not camping me and i'm not camping you.........we're both just sitting there. I still have a projectile, a crappy one yes, but I still can fight long range.

In NinjaLinks thread, I agreed that the better characters that you always see in tournies camp her............Sonic is not one of those.

at least it's not as outlandish as DanGR claiming Ganon outcamped her months ago.

 

[PK-ow!]

This should be Sonic's match.

Zelda is slow.
Zelda's attacks work like bullets: They hit one point hard, but still only one point.

Sonic can overwhelm Zelda, and either she starts throwing out attacks and then she's lost because she's playing by his pace, or she becomes reserved, in which case Sonic can walk run all over her; she becomes his ideal matchup (does she not?).

To top it off, she's one of the lightest, so K.O.s aren't Sonic's woes this match.

Still, Sonic has all his priority trouble. I think you need to figure out what their options are in the air.

Also, what happens (just out of curiosity) when they use dtilt simultaneously?

 

[-Mars-]

This should be Sonic's match.

Zelda is slow.
Zelda's attacks work like bullets: They hit one point hard, but still only one point.

Sonic can overwhelm Zelda, and either she starts throwing out attacks and then she's lost because she's playing by his pace, or she becomes reserved, in which case Sonic can walk run all over her; she becomes his ideal matchup (does she not?).

To top it off, she's one of the lightest, so K.O.s aren't Sonic's woes this match.

Still, Sonic has all his priority trouble. I think you need to figure out what their options are in the air.

Also, what happens (just out of curiosity) when they use dtilt simultaneously?

So your saying Zelda is slow, Sonic is fast, and that's what swings the matchup in his favor?

Wow good post.

 

[Tenki]

Zelda's not that slow.

Requiring >10 frames of startup/setup time would be slow enough to be considered 'baitable' in Sonic's terms.

 

[-Mars-]

Ya there's this common misconception by most people that Zelda plays like Ike, Bowser, and DK.

She has one of the fastest, most powerful smashes in the game; auto cancelled aerials, dtilt, Naryus, bair, above average horizontal aerial speed, and not much cooldown on multiple attacks

She certainly can be baited by Sonic though.

 

[Alopex]

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game. Your logic makes no sense, your not camping me and i'm not camping you.........we're both just sitting there. I still have a projectile, a crappy one yes, but I still can fight long range.

In NinjaLinks thread, I agreed that the better characters that you always see in tournies camp her............Sonic is not one of those.

Zeldas have no approach. An approaching Zelda is a fail Zelda. Everyone knows this.

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game because that is all she can do. She is made to punish anyone who tries to get near her.

If the opponent does not try to get near her, Zelda can't do anything.

Din's Fire is horribly predictable and most opponents who know Zelda will prefer to deal with that than attempt to get near her. They know, as we know, that Zelda will do way more damage to you if you try to approach her.

It's hard to force someone to approach Zelda if they really don't want to. It doesn't matter what character they are. If they know Zelda enough to know Din's Fire, there's nothing stopping them from camping her while slowly moving forward. Then it's a game of who thinks they have an opening first.
So yeah, it's not uncommon to have both characters "just sitting there" in a Zelda match. No one wants to approach Zelda and Zelda can't approach worth crap. So both will just wait it out until they think they have an opening. Mindgames, baiting and luring, etc. This happens all the time.

Now, Sonic has something most characters do not, which is a way to approach Zelda safely and quickly. That is the charged Spindash.

A Sonic charging his Spindash can get Zelda before Din's even has a chance to reach Sonic. It's very fast and can easily get a Zelda before they can explode the Din's. Which means the Sonic has reached Zelda while she was in Din's animation, meaning they hit her with the Spindash and have now performed a Spindash combo (and there are many of those). Once that combo is performed, you are in the air and Sonic is below you. I don't need to tell you that this is not a good position for Zelda.

If you managed to explode the Din's on an advancing Spindashing Sonic, you need to hope that the explosion was strong enough to ping with the Spindash, otherwise Sonic will go right through it. If it pings, Sonic will take no damage anyway and Sonic has zero lag when he is pinged out of his Spindash, allowing him to get right back to charging it. Only this time he is closer to you and is more likely to beat your Din's.
Conversely, if he's pinged out of it close enough to you, then he can just go and attack you. A pinged out Sonic actually has less lag than a Zelda post-Din explosion. And Sonic is fast enough to cover the distance before your lag is totally finished (since odds are he's not far away from you anyway).

Now, if you choose to not use Din's but instead want to wait for the Spindashing Sonic to come at you and attempt to FSmash or USmash them when they get near you, you will be met with Spindash canceling tricks.
Simply put, if you're not using Din's, the Sonic will know you are waiting to hit them with a smash. They will just use the Spindash, head for you, and then jump out of the Spindash or UpB out of the Spindash to avoid your hit. After that, they can use a Dair if you used an Fsmash or a Homing Attack if you used Usmash. And it's not like they have to take their time to accomplish this. Trust me when I say that an UpB > Dair out of a Spindash will hit you before you are done executing the Fsmash. And the Sonic Dair pops you up, too, so uh-oh.
A good Sonic will never hit you with the Spindash unless you're vulnerable. They always go for Spindash cancels, and the fact that they have so many options out of the Spindash means you'll have a hard time predicting them and they'll have an easy time punishing you.

A good Sonic can most certainly outcamp a Zelda, and a good Sonic is one of the few characters that can actually overcome Zelda's strong anti-approach game. For a good Sonic, this match is in their advantage.

 

[-Mars-]

Zeldas have no approach. An approaching Zelda is a fail Zelda. Everyone knows this.

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game because that is all she can do. She is made to punish anyone who tries to get near her.

If the opponent does not try to get near her, Zelda can't do anything.

Din's Fire is horribly predictable and most opponents who know Zelda will prefer to deal with that than attempt to get near her. They know, as we know, that Zelda will do way more damage to you if you try to approach her.

It's hard to force someone to approach Zelda if they really don't want to. It doesn't matter what character they are. If they know Zelda enough to know Din's Fire, there's nothing stopping them from camping her while slowly moving forward. Then it's a game of who thinks they have an opening first.

Now, Sonic has something most characters do not, which is a way to approach Zelda safely and quickly. That is the charged Spindash.

A Sonic charging his Spindash can get Zelda before Din's even has a chance to reach Sonic. It's very fast and can easily get a Zelda before they can explode the Din's. Which means the Sonic has reached Zelda while she was in Din's animation, meaning they hit her with the Spindash and have now performed a Spindash combo (and there are many of those). Once that combo is performed, you are in the air and Sonic is below you. I don't need to tell you that this is not a good position for Zelda.

If you managed to explode the Din's on an advancing Spindashing Sonic, you need to hope that the explosion was strong enough to ping with the Spindash, otherwise Sonic will go right through it. If it pings, Sonic will take no damage anyway and Sonic has like no lag when he is pinged out of his Spindash, allowing him to get right back to charging it. Only this time he is closer to you and is more likely to beat your Din's.
Conversely, if he's pinged out of it close enough to you, then he can just go and attack you. A pinged out Sonic actually has less lag than a Zelda post-Din explosion. And Sonic is fast enough to cover the distance before your lag is totally finished (since odds are he's not far away from you anyway).

Now, if you choose to not use Din's but instead want to wait for the Spindashing Sonic to come at you and attempt to FSmash or USmash them when they get near you, you will be met with Spindash canceling tricks.
Simply put, if you're not using Din's, the Sonic will know you are waiting to hit them with a smash. They will just use the Spindash, head for you, and then jump out of the Spindash or UpB out of the Spindash to avoid your hit. After that, they can use a Dair if you used an Fsmash or a Homing Attack if you used Usmash.
Trust me, a good Sonic will never hit you with the Spindash unless you're vulnerable. They always go for Spindash cancels, and the fact that they have so many options out of the Spindash means you'll have a hard time predicting them and they'll have an easy time punishing you.

A good Sonic can most certainly outcamp a Zelda, and a good Sonic is one of the few characters that can actually overcome Zelda's strong anti-approach game. For a good Sonic, this match is in their advantage.

Zelda has a plethora of anti-approach moves. In the sonic matchup i'm not just going to sit there throwing out random fsmashes and usmashes. Like i've said before jab and dtilt are excellent options against Sonic. If you try to outrange dtilt with your dtilt(I think) or fsmash, then and only then will I be using fsmash against Sonic. I'm aware that Sonic is a bait and punish character, I play Fox and you have to play him the same way as Sonic so I run into similar problems you Sonic users face all the time. Jab and dtilt are significantly harder to punish then one of her smashes because of their low cooldown time, making them easily better options against Sonic.

If your sitting there trying to bait me with spindash cancels, i'm not an idiot. I'll walk into jabs and dtilts or I can just stay put were I am. I also, if I feel like it will land, I can take advantage of Naryus invincibility frames and it's extremely quick startup time. Forget what I said about Dins, I was only referring to extremely long distances such as most of FD.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up yet is Farore's. If you're going to sit there and play Spindash Cancel mindgames with me, then i'll turn around and play Farores mindgames with you. As far as I know Sonic can't instantaneously change directions out of a Spindash Cancel, so what's to stop me from teleporting behind you while your charging?

You keep using the term "good Sonic". Of course we're talking about high levels of play here right? I thought that was just implied when the thread was made. Your saying a "good" Sonic can outcamp a Zelda, but I could just turn around and say that a "good" Zelda will outcamp a Sonic. Since we're talking about high levels of play, the term "good" really shouldn't be thrown out there as both players will be "good" and will both understand the matchup. Since the Zelda player understands the matchup and that jabs and dtilts are vital........Sonics options are limited....does anyone besides Alopex disagree?

 

[Alopex]

First, you are talking about a match-up that you have stated you have little experience with. So everything you are saying is theoretical. What I say comes from having witnessed their applications first hand many times, so keep an open mind. Don't make assumptions and suggestions if you haven't tested it against a human in a real offline match. I'll tell you right now that Sonic's speed makes him one of the characters most downgraded by WiFi lag. Don't compare an online Sonic experience with an offline one.

Second, I'm a Zelda main. So I'm speaking from the perspective of a Zelda who's played countless offline matches against a Sonic. I don't play Sonic. Not even every now and then. Everything I say comes from a Zelda perspective. I know the character, and I've experienced what Sonic can do against her.

If your sitting there trying to bait me with spindash cancels, i'm not an idiot. I'll walk into jabs and dtilts or I can just stay put were I am. I also, if I feel like it will land, I can take advantage of Naryus invincibility frames and it's extremely quick startup time. Forget what I said about Dins, I was only referring to extremely long distances such as most of FD.

You don't seem to understand what the Spindash cancel is.
It's not just a mindgame. It's an attack.

Spindash canceling is jumping a MOVING spindash into an immediate aerial or B move.

You don't seem to believe how effective this is likely because you haven't experienced it. It gives them TONS of options immediately out of the spindash jump, and you won't know what they'll do until after they've done it.

With the spindash they are capable of concealing their approach. You'll need to try to guess what the Sonic will do out of the spindash to be able to punish them accordingly. And the Spindash's speed means you don't have much time to make up your mind.
This a problem Zelda only faces with Sonic. Every other character has FAR more predictable approaches that Zelda would have no problem anticipating.

You can't anticipate Sonic's spindash approach. More often than not, that means you'll mess up the defense and Sonic will get to you.
Sure you'll stop him plenty of times, it's not like the spindash is unstoppable, but the net gain will be Sonic's.

Zelda has a plethora of anti-approach moves. In the sonic matchup i'm not just going to sit there throwing out random fsmashes and usmashes. Like i've said before jab and dtilt are excellent options against Sonic. If you try to outrange dtilt with your dtilt(I think) or fsmash, then and only then will I be using fsmash against Sonic. I'm aware that Sonic is a bait and punish character, I play Fox and you have to play him the same way as Sonic so I run into similar problems you Sonic users face all the time. Jab and dtilt are significantly harder to punish then one of her smashes because of their low cooldown time, making them easily better options against Sonic.

Yeah, everything you're suggesting as a counter for Sonic are things no Sonic would ever do.

No Sonic will EVER challenge Zelda's ground game. They're goal will be to get you in the air. They do this with throws or spindash combos.
So there's no point in stating how you can beat Sonic's ground game, because they'll never use it in this match.

If you're not fighting a Sonic that spends this entire match trying to get you in the air, then that Sonic has no idea what he's doing.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up yet is Farore's. If you're going to sit there and play Spindash Cancel mindgames with me, then i'll turn around and play Farores mindgames with you. As far as I know Sonic can't instantaneously change directions out of a Spindash Cancel, so what's to stop me from teleporting behind you while your charging?

First, I'll reiterate that you don't seem to fully understand what the spindash cancel is. The things you've mentioned in relation to it don't really make sense. Hopefully my description above helps you get a better picture of it.

Now, what's stopping you from using Farore's while the Sonic charges the Spindash? Well, if a Sonic is charging the spindash and sees you start Farore's, they can just jump...
They'll jump, you'll appear behind them, the explosion will miss, Sonic will Bair you.

If you don't teleport to them (in a mindgame attempt), then they can just start the ASC and will be fully charged before you can teleport towards them again.

If you wait until they're moving towards you to Farore's, then I guarantee you they'll hit you before the Farore's start-up is over.

I really think you are underestimating the versatility of the spindash and all its varied uses.

You keep using the term "good Sonic". Of course we're talking about high levels of play here right? I thought that was just implied when the thread was made. Your saying a "good" Sonic can outcamp a Zelda, but I could just turn around and say that a "good" Zelda will outcamp a Sonic. Since we're talking about high levels of play, the term "good" really shouldn't be thrown out there as both players will be "good" and will both understand the matchup. Since the Zelda player understands the matchup and that jabs and dtilts are vital........Sonics options are limited....does anyone besides Alopex disagree?

I use the term "good Sonic" because everything you've suggested so far on Sonic's behalf are things a BAD Sonic would do. You're assuming high level play for both, but you don't seem to have encountered high level Sonic play yet.
All the counters you're suggesting (Dtilt, Jab) are things that won't affect high level Sonic play because the high level play Sonic vs Zelda match will have Sonic doing most of his work in the air. The only grounded thing Sonic needs here is a grab. Fortunately for Zelda, she is good at preventing grabs. Unfortunately, Sonic does have other ways of getting you in the air, and the speed of his dash-shielded grab means he's more capable of capitalizing on Zelda's mistakes than most other characters.

 

[Umby]

Too much talk about Spin Dash. Not enough talk about Side Taunt and Dash Attack.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I play regularly against Shugo who is a very good sonic. He wins normally no matter which character he plays Sonic may be underrated, but that doesn't give him the advantage here.

Zelda>Sonic really. she's got a lot more going for her. it's true sonic has the ability to bait and punish, but all that can do is bring the matchup to equality. ignore it all you want but Zelda kills sonic easily. you (sonic mains) have to work a hell of a lot harder at it.

 

[smasher?o.0]

zelda vs sonic?
doesnt sound good
but tenki right
zelda is underestamated badly in fastness

 

[Tenki]

You don't seem to understand what the Spindash cancel is.
It's not just a mindgame. It's an attack.

Spindash canceling is jumping a MOVING spindash into an immediate aerial or B move.


talk about high level sonic etc

Spindash cancelling is actually cancelling the spindashes into shield

...

......

Like, Sonic's coming at me with an aerial spin charge!! oh noes!! he's gonna roll into me in like, 15 frames! omgomgomogm i gotta get ready to spotdodge....!!!!
[spotdodge]
[Sonic cancels the spin with shield, runs into you and grabs you]
Sonic: you're too slow! lolololol

Too much talk about Spin Dash. Not enough talk about Side Taunt and Dash Attack.

Dash attack is an amazing punisher :3

 

[Brinzy]

Zeldas have no approach. An approaching Zelda is a fail Zelda. Everyone knows this.

lol

Why is this? Why does everyone say she has no approach? You don't have to be running in and attacking to approach. She might run slow on the ground, but... she's still running. Or walking, even. Everyone can close distance (approach), and she can just space her attacks at a closer range, since she can't blindingly fly past people like Sonic can. What's the point of saying she has no approach when, in fact, she does?

Zelda is one of the best anti-approach characters in the game because that is all she can do. She is made to punish anyone who tries to get near her.

If the opponent does not try to get near her, Zelda can't do anything.

Din's Fire is horribly predictable and most opponents who know Zelda will prefer to deal with that than attempt to get near her. They know, as we know, that Zelda will do way more damage to you if you try to approach her.

Who cares about Din's Fire? It's not even near the core of her game. It's just some extra little chance you get at hitting someone from obscenely far distances when they're off of the stage.

If the opponent doesn't try to get near her, then what are they doing to her? There are characters who place themselves at a disadvantage or a smaller advantage than if they do try to be at a closer distance. Robot, for example, is going to stick with stuff like ftilt and dtilt to attack with instead of sitting back and eating Din's while trying to camp her. What can Sonic do to camp?

I'm under the influence that someone who isn't going near another opponent when they don't have anything to use from afar is... well, doing nothing. If you're playing hit and run, that's one thing, but I think every semi-decent Zelda player and above realizes that it's better to close distance between a standing opponent and herself than it is to use Din's. (Besides, the opponent is going to be near an edge if they try to stay away from Zelda, which... uh... isn't exactly the best place to be).

It's hard to force someone to approach Zelda if they really don't want to. It doesn't matter what character they are. If they know Zelda enough to know Din's Fire, there's nothing stopping them from camping her while slowly moving forward. Then it's a game of who thinks they have an opening first.
So yeah, it's not uncommon to have both characters "just sitting there" in a Zelda match. No one wants to approach Zelda and Zelda can't approach worth crap. So both will just wait it out until they think they have an opening. Mindgames, baiting and luring, etc. This happens all the time.

Again, if Zelda just moves in to space Fsmash or jab (or rather, be right out of the range of those moves), then how exactly is she just standing there? As mediocre as I am because of far too many reasons to name, even when I face better opponents, I at least realize that just "standing" there is a dumb idea for Zelda because nobody is gonna allow her to stand there and/or they're not going to walk into her moves. I mean, she still has a shield, a dodge, disjointed attacks, a lasting nair, and a few other things. It's not like forcing Zelda to move = auto-win for the opponent. This is a common misconception.

Now, Sonic has something most characters do not, which is a way to approach Zelda safely and quickly. That is the charged Spindash.

A Sonic charging his Spindash can get Zelda before Din's even has a chance to reach Sonic. It's very fast and can easily get a Zelda before they can explode the Din's. Which means the Sonic has reached Zelda while she was in Din's animation, meaning they hit her with the Spindash and have now performed a Spindash combo (and there are many of those). Once that combo is performed, you are in the air and Sonic is below you. I don't need to tell you that this is not a good position for Zelda.

It's one thing to get caught into this move in general.

It is an entirely different thing to be caught in it because Zelda was throwing out Din's. That would be a stupid Zelda. How many high-level Zeldas have you seen just throw out Din's, both in Melee and in Brawl?

If you managed to explode the Din's on an advancing Spindashing Sonic, you need to hope that the explosion was strong enough to ping with the Spindash, otherwise Sonic will go right through it. If it pings, Sonic will take no damage anyway and Sonic has zero lag when he is pinged out of his Spindash, allowing him to get right back to charging it. Only this time he is closer to you and is more likely to beat your Din's.
Conversely, if he's pinged out of it close enough to you, then he can just go and attack you. A pinged out Sonic actually has less lag than a Zelda post-Din explosion. And Sonic is fast enough to cover the distance before your lag is totally finished (since odds are he's not far away from you anyway).

Still on nigh useless Din's?

Now, if you choose to not use Din's but instead want to wait for the Spindashing Sonic to come at you and attempt to FSmash or USmash them when they get near you, you will be met with Spindash canceling tricks.
Simply put, if you're not using Din's, the Sonic will know you are waiting to hit them with a smash. They will just use the Spindash, head for you, and then jump out of the Spindash or UpB out of the Spindash to avoid your hit. After that, they can use a Dair if you used an Fsmash or a Homing Attack if you used Usmash. And it's not like they have to take their time to accomplish this. Trust me when I say that an UpB > Dair out of a Spindash will hit you before you are done executing the Fsmash. And the Sonic Dair pops you up, too, so uh-oh.
A good Sonic will never hit you with the Spindash unless you're vulnerable. They always go for Spindash cancels, and the fact that they have so many options out of the Spindash means you'll have a hard time predicting them and they'll have an easy time punishing you.

A good Sonic can most certainly outcamp a Zelda, and a good Sonic is one of the few characters that can actually overcome Zelda's strong anti-approach game. For a good Sonic, this match is in their advantage.

It's stupid to keep saying "a good Sonic this, a good Sonic that" and that the Sonic is going to read all of Zelda's moves and that she's going to fall for them most of the time. I need to confirm this, but can't the stupid Spindash be stopped by her jab (which is basically a very weak Fsmash with a lot less cooldown)? Even if it doesn't, we STILL have a shield! Can you grab out of a Spindash? If not, then that probably reduces a lot of what you said to "catch her off guard", which would be useless for this type of analysis. If you can, then I say spotdodge when he comes close and just hope you made the right decision.

The point is, Zelda can still do more than Din's and Fsmash. I don't care how many times you've seen Zelda stand somewhere and just mindlessly throw Din's and just stood there. The Zelda and Sonic scenario you described is basically me vs. someone like Mr. 3000 or Tenki. They can do all of these things while I can only spam Fsmash. Right, Perfect analysis.

Spindash cancelling is actually cancelling the spindashes into shield

Wonderful. This means that it's not immediate and that Zelda can use something OoS herself. He was saying it like... well, you saw it.

 

[Umby]

Just to make sure we all understand:

Spin Dash Canceling - Pressing shield during the side B charge to immediately STOP the charge BEFORE it fully charges.

Spin Dash Roll Canceling - Jumping out of a Spin Dash Roll (Not the hop part. The part where you roll on the ground) to "cancel" it.

Tenki Canceling - a.k.a the condition known as colorblind.

 

[Tenki]

Just to make sure we all understand:

Spin Dash Canceling - Pressing shield during the side B charge to immediately STOP the charge BEFORE it fully charges.

Spin Dash Roll Canceling - Jumping out of a Spin Dash Roll (Not the hop part. The part where you roll on the ground) to "cancel" it.

Tenki Canceling - a.k.a the condition known as colorblind.

lol, for the non-sonic mains, I decided to group ASC cancelling with 'spindash cancels'

>_> <_< >_>
tenki cancel D:

Wonderful. This means that it's not immediate and that Zelda can use something OoS herself. He was saying it like... well, you saw it.

Yeah. Something like that. The main problem with that is that the OoS reactions may or may not be punishable lol.

I mean, what he mentioned can happen, where you jump out of a spindash and perform some other move instead, but the spindash cancels with shield are, IMO alot more versatile in a sense, because:

1) With an ASC, it "pins" you to a reaction, because in a very short amount of time (>20 frames), Sonic is either making contact with you (not cancelled) or actually camping for a reaction in your face(cancelled).
2) With a side-B charge, it can make it look like Sonic is vulnerable from his charge when he can actually shield cancel it and counter you out of shield, or he can jump at you via releasing the charge or spinshot. On top of that, he can use it to pivot or stop momentum from his run.

So it really depends on what you use out of shield

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sounds like a lot of what sonic has going for him as that foes don't know how to fight against him or what he can do

 

[Tenki]

sounds like a lot of what sonic has going for him as that foes don't know how to fight against him or what he can do

Kind of.

The interesting thing about it is that even if you find a 'countermovement' to the shield cancel, it's only the most shallow level of the attack. The move is variable to the point that if you find a countermovement to it, like running forward and grabbing/attacking at the landing or something, Sonic still has options to mix it up. That 2nd/3rd/x level of mixup really rare to find, but that's what makes it so versatile and what brings it to the player level in the matchup. The main issue is that most Sonic players don't take advantage of it.

It works in Sonic dittos - where people are ultimately familiar with their own character. I don't see how it would somehow eventually be neutralized through matchup knowledge lol.

 

[Umby]

Another good part of Sonic's pros is that he's great a punishing due to his ground speed. So more often not, his aim is to bait opponents into a vulnerable position to be punished. A number of Sonic's tools can accomplish this effectively.

 

[Kinzer]

Umby, why don't you come back to the Shawnik boards?

by the way, I want to personally thank all Zeldas for giving their input on the matchup, it couldn't have been possiblee without you guys.

 

[Umby]

Umby, why don't you come back to the Shawnik boards?

Why would I want to do something as silly as that?

 

[Kinzer]

'Cause we miss you and you still have a stickied thread index zone that needs tending to?

Please?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*holds teh umby ransom just 'cause*

 

[Umby]

'Cause we miss you and you still have a stickied thread index zone that needs tending to?

Please?

You can unsticky the thread and make your own thread? Besides, you have Boxob. That's all you'll ever need.

*holds teh umby ransom just 'cause*

Hopefully this doesn't mean I have to play Zelda. ._.

 

[Kinzer]

But Boxob keeps getting banned XD.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hopefully this doesn't mean I have to play Zelda. ._.

of course not.

but I mean... why wouldn't you want to play zelda? you got a problem with her?

I mena she plays SO much like sonic anyway

*tries to think of reasons why*

 

[Umby]

of course not.

but I mean... why wouldn't you want to play zelda? you got a problem with her?

I mena she plays SO much like sonic anyway

*tries to think of reasons why*

She doesn't have the shoes. Not interested if she doesn't have the shoes.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

She doesn't have the shoes. Not interested if she doesn't have the shoes.

O.O Zelda's shoes >>>>>>>>> Sonic's shoes.

they have teh lightnin!

 

[ShadoFiend]

I was reading this thing and I was going to post a few things myself. But after seeing Tenki in here I know that I am not need. I think he can explain what a real Spin Dash cancel is since it seems none of you got it right...

 

[Kinzer]

I'm reviving this thread to let you Zeldas know that the Sonic boards have finally gotten to Sheik, so you may now discuss the full matchup between Sonic and Zelda/Sheik.

Any feedback is highly appreciated, and thank you for your cooperation.

Also do mind that the original matchup manager has left on a trip for a couple weeks, so it may look liek we are still on Ganon... -_-