Zelda vs. Marth - Practical Strategies?

[Homunkurusu]

Dear Smash Bros. Community;

I just signed up on these forums today, even though I have been playing
Smash Bros. since ssbm first came out. Now, both my brother an I play
ssbb almost daily, and hes main-ing with Marth, and I am sorta trying to
see if I can main with Zelda. In ssbm, I could throunce him as Shiek on a
rather consistent basis, but now in brawl, thanks to diminishing returns on
smash attacks and Marths god-like approach game I'm at a lost on what to do.
Not a single tilt, neutral, or smash attack out-ranges that stupid sword, and
Din's Fire has too much lag/cooldown to be spammed without danger of getting hit
not to mention my brother like any half-decent player can easily guard against it.
Worse yet, Zelda's two best defensive close-quarters move - f-smash , and
u-smash - seem to be much more affected by the new diminishing returns
mechanic than any of Marth's attacks. My brother uses Pit as an alt, and just
like when hes Marth, he spams smash attacks with little consequence. He's convinced
that he's a "better" player than me, and I'm just really frustrated. Any tips on beating
decent, smash spammers?

 

[Homunkurusu]

PS - considering that he doesn't know how to block throw, wave-bounce, RAR or ariel-cancel yet, just adds frustration. How is it that even after practicing all of these he can still smash-spam me across FD... grrr...

 

[Tsuteto]

Timing. He's got it better than you, or he's able to read you easier. Just simply knowing how to use a technique is not enough. How to use a technique while faking out your opponent so you can slip in and retaliate is what is necessary.

From the sound of it your brother has a very guessable style. Stand back, be patient, and figure out what his approach strategy is like. You may have to take a few hits, but if you start analyzing his character, you'll figure out how to counter it.

 

[LouBega]

for "close quarter defensive moves," i wouldn't go with the fsmash or the usmash. zelda's dsmash is so much quicker and can give you breathing room.

 

[Tsuteto]

Although if the match is just starting out you might be able to pull off two u-smashes if the first one picks him up off the ground. I don't know, I haven't tested that out with Marth yet.

 

[Joe_Musashi]

Try to keep control of his approach with din's fire-something easier said than done, I know. Try to avoid being predictable with it, and try to get a feeling for the appropriate range to use it at. Focus on keeping some kind of distance between you. Zelda needs to control the flow of the match.

You said he spams smashes consistently.Look for things like that in his game that are predictable and exploit them. Up-smash and F-smash will still be useful to you (so long as he doesn't know how to escape them, and even then that can be hard to do if you catch them off guard.).

Down smash is a good "clear-out" move and has nice horizontal knockback. Don't be afraid to use it when he's right on top of you and open. Try to hurt his recovery with dins fire-this is the appropriate time to spam it like hell.

 

[rampant_apart]

I also question using f-smash as an in close defense move. Naryu and down smash will probably be a little better for that, imho.

You say that Din can't do you much good, but I request humbly that you don't even try to hit with it anymore if he is so good at defending against it. Keep doing it, mind you, but instead, use it to harass, herd, and in general, harry him. His approach is good, but anyone's approach is handicapped if forced under duress. If he you find this is beginning to annoy him, make it worse with Farore's mind games.

Against pit, short hopping while showing the Naryu's love may help control the arrow problem.

 

[Wildfire393]

So you're saying he repeatedly just runs at you and Forward/down Smashes, and this beats you?

First off, I'd practice your shielding. Especially against Marth, if you shield his forward smash, there is definitely enough time to get an attack in afterwards. Spot Dodging also helps.

Din's fire at long range. Even if you can't actually get through his defenses, you're forcing him to react, which can bait him in to making a mistake.

Naryu's Love is a powerful defensive move. It has some invincibility frames and a fairly long range on the attack part of it. If you can get the timing down, you can cancel out his forward smash and land some damage of your own using this.

Your forward smash and dash attack are fairly long ranged and have high priority. Maybe not more so than his forward smash, but if he's using something else you can sneak them in.

Your down smash is VERY high priority and very quick, and can clink with most moves if you time it right. I'm not sure about marth's forward smash, but it might work there as well.

Vary your approach. Smashes are not the only way to go about it. You have a strong dash attack, a decently ranged grab (running shield-grab for more range), and a decent running upsmash. You can also approach by using Farore's Wind to move on top of him (it explodes coming out), or by shorthopping and using din's fire to glide forward. If you find yourself in close quarters, your jab is quick and is good for getting people out of your hair. Your downtilt is also quick and can combo into itself several times or into a downsmash, which gets people out of your hair better. Naryu's love again comes into play here, or a shorthopped neutral aerial. Roll into downsmash is also a powerful approach/defensive technique.

Spacing is really key. Learn to hang out just outside his forward smash range, and try to bait him in to trying one from that far away, then punish him afterwards. Rolling is your friend. Roll into downsmashes or grabs when possible.

 

[Homunkurusu]

My larger issue is that he can react with little to no lag from his attacks where i find Zelda's moves ofter leave her wide open and unable to react. I know that l-canceling has been removed, but is there anyway to remove some of the animation frames from Zeldas movements/attacks ? Another note is that consistently use of f-smash should lower the damage and knockback on the attack, but he never seems to be affected by this mechanic. I know I can win by down-b, but that defeats the purpose of playing as Zelda... Lastly, the new final destination is significantly smaller length-wise than the old stage; where should I try to make stands: on the edges, or towards the middle...

 

[Luthien]

All smash attacks have lag, so punish that. Some things that will help you a lot in this match are:

Din's Fire (Make HIM frustrated)
Fsmash (not to clear him away from you, but to punish a poorly thought-out dash attack)
Grab (counter-happy?)
Sheild (Just block the smashes)
Naryu's Love (Use this if he rolls a lot, which he probably does if he spams smashes. Invincibility frames and the amount of time the shards take to attack are wonderful)
Dsmash (beat him to the smash attack. Get close)
Kicking out of shield. (This is INCREDIBLE. Practice it till it becomes instinct. I have yet to master it, but it's a stock decider, this thing. It'll help you in any matchup. Powershield-> Kick beats anything Marth can throw at you, period. Just don't let him grab you while your shield is up)

 

[ShadowLink84]

no point.
If you are facing a Marth with skill even just a little bit lesser than yours you are going to get boned.
Jump off the edge and suicide until the game ends.

If however you are facing an idiot, you are still going to have problems.
What is best is that you control the pace of the game, don't let him get too close and when he does Farore towards the other side.

If you can try to sucker him into doing an Fsmash then capitalize on it quickly. Keep to the ground because aerial wise he outranges you, out prioritizes you, is faster, can attack more often.

If its on Final destination make your stand on the edge not the middle so that you can make use of Farore and ensure that you can control the pace, especially since marth wants to avoid the edge since a single mistake means you can grab him and toss him out then airguard him to death.

Do NOT use your Fsmash or your U smash. He can DI out of it and avoid the actual knockback of the attack and actually punish you afterwards so use it as little as possible.

 

[Luthien]

no point.
If you are facing a Marth with skill even just a little bit lesser than yours you are going to get boned.
Jump off the edge and suicide until the game ends.

No. This is Brawl, not Melee. This matchup is about even.

If however you are facing an idiot, you are still going to have problems.
What is best is that you control the pace of the game, don't let him get too close and when he does Farore towards the other side.

Dumb. FW has WAY too much starting lag for that to work, and he can chase pretty well. FW has neither the speed nor the distance to mess with Marth, forget on the ground teleporting. He'll destroy you, even if he is an idiot.

If you can try to sucker him into doing an Fsmash then capitalize on it quickly. Keep to the ground because aerial wise he outranges you, out prioritizes you, is faster, can attack more often.

I have no problem with this.

If its on Final destination make your stand on the edge not the middle so that you can make use of Farore and ensure that you can control the pace, especially since marth wants to avoid the edge since a single mistake means you can grab him and toss him out then airguard him to death.

NO. For the love of...

FW mindgames are risky enough. On the ground FW is HORRIBLE on the ledge of the stage, because you can only teleport to the middle, or stay where you are (next to no point in using the other three teleport distances).

And trying to FW mindgame MARTH is just so stupid I wouldn't reccomend it at all. His grab will destroy you. All he has to do is shield, and he can just grab if you tried to attack him or dash attack if you tried to evade. At least if you're in the middle of FD you can advance, remain, OR retreat to the other side of FD, which gives you maybe a second to gather your wits before he catches up to you. It's FAR safer than FW mindgaming on the ledge.

Do NOT use your Fsmash or your U smash. He can DI out of it and avoid the actual knockback of the attack and actually punish you afterwards so use it as little as possible.

Please. DI is a factor, but how many times does it actually happen in a match? DIing out of them is harder than it seems, especially if you're caught off guard. Seriously. If Marth makes a mistake, feel free to hyphendash his face off.

 

[hario.hige]

I wouldn't say it's a 50/50 matchup, anyway.

For the powershield to kick thing, what's the spacing? If you PS a tipped vs. a nontipped fsmash, can you shorthop a kick?

 

[Homunkurusu]

Thanks for the tips everyone - I took him to the cleaners tonight - he quit after 3 matches.. hehe... I just wanna give a shout out to the awe-inspiring Dark Musician - your videos helped tremendously - you rock dude.

 

[Random_X]

Kicking out of shield. (This is INCREDIBLE. Practice it till it becomes instinct. I have yet to master it, but it's a stock decider, this thing. It'll help you in any matchup. Powershield-> Kick beats anything Marth can throw at you, period. Just don't let him grab you while your shield is up)

Is there anywhere than I could see this technique since I am more of a visual learner?

And after trying B sticking and getting a feel for it, should this become a mainstay in my strategy using DFs this way once I get fluid with it?

 

[Wind Owl]

(I love double posts, don't you?)

 

[Wind Owl]

I wouldn't B-stick with Zelda; her smash attacks are a major part of her game and having a slower Dsmash could kill you. Also, you usually want to go forward with Din's Fire, not backwards.

 

[Luthien]

Is there anywhere than I could see this technique since I am more of a visual learner?

Darkmusician does it a lot, so if you want to see it, watch some of his videos. DM kicks quite a bit, so you should see some kicking out of shield there.

Or, you can just get Ryoko's friend code. <_<; I'm sure he'd be as happy to show you as he was happy to show me.

 

[Random_X]

I wouldn't B-stick with Zelda; her smash attacks are a major part of her game and having a slower Dsmash could kill you. Also, you usually want to go forward with Din's Fire, not backwards.

I was thinking to use it for short hoping away from the opponent and then turning around with it...but I am the one trying to learn so I'll take your advice.

Darkmusician does it a lot, so if you want to see it, watch some of his videos. DM kicks quite a bit, so you should see some kicking out of shield there.

Or, you can just get Ryoko's friend code. <_<; I'm sure he'd be as happy to show you as he was happy to show me.

I have watch Dark's vids a lot...kinda inspired me, but I guess I just did not pay attention to those since I was not looking for them. You know if this was used in the vids posted recently and I'll go back to them?

And I would love to learn by actually playing...but I have no Wii. I can only play right now by a friends house or going to a LAN center to play. If I ever get a Wii though, I will ask for that for sure.

 

[Luthien]

I have watch Dark's vids a lot...kinda inspired me, but I guess I just did not pay attention to those since I was not looking for them. You know if this was used in the vids posted recently and I'll go back to them?

I think I just watched a vid against D3 where he used it. First match, I believe.

And I would love to learn by actually playing...but I have no Wii. I can only play right now by a friends house or going to a LAN center to play. If I ever get a Wii though, I will ask for that for sure.

Got a gamecube? Works in Melee too.

 

[Random_X]

Ok, I'll go back to watch that. What is the input after you shield?

 

[Wind Owl]

I was thinking to use it for short hoping away from the opponent and then turning around with it...but I am the one trying to learn so I'll take your advice.

Oh, I see. Well, since Zelda's Fair and Bair are basically identical, you don't need to Reverse Aerial Rush with her.

As for the input of the kicks, it's just shield > shorthop > Fair.

 

[Random_X]

Ok, short hop fair(preferably clean hit version). Ill have to try to get that down.

 

[Tsuteto]

I, personally, have an easier time with a bair, actually. The minor difference makes a huge difference by my book XD

 

[rampant_apart]

Thanks for the tips everyone - I took him to the cleaners tonight - he quit after 3 matches.. hehe... I just wanna give a shout out to the awe-inspiring Dark Musician - your videos helped tremendously - you rock dude.

Excellent. Exactly what we wanted to hear! Grats!

 

[mOojc]

Kicking out of shield. (This is INCREDIBLE. Practice it till it becomes instinct. I have yet to master it, but it's a stock decider, this thing. It'll help you in any matchup. Powershield-> Kick beats anything Marth can throw at you, period. Just don't let him grab you while your shield is up)

Can someone explain to me the benefits of kicking out of shield? Or generally why doing things (such as jumping) out of shields is helpful?

 

[Luthien]

Can someone explain to me the benefits of kicking out of shield? Or generally why doing things (such as jumping) out of shields is helpful?

Simple really. Say a Zelda comes at you and decides to hyphensmash (usmash while running). You shield the attack, and your opponent is completely open due to usmash's attack lag (not much, but enough). You then short hop out of your shield and bair - that's one of Zelda's strongest attacks - and your opponent is instantly KO'd. It's speed is faster than most (if not all) of Zelda's other attacks too. Bairing/fairing (AKA: kicking) out of shield protects you and is pretty much the ultimate counter-attack due to a sweetspotted kick's incredible knockback and damage.

 

[Tsuteto]

Not to mention that it can put some distance if you're jumping away and kicking, which is almost always good.

 

[Random_X]

While we are talking about specifics on characters, can you all give me some advice on MK? He really annoyed me tonight playing him and I felt abused by his speed.

 

[ded]

this match is all about grabs and ur dsmash. his aproach game is amazing but even that cant stop a good sheild grab. even when he leroys in their u can still side step dsmash and send him back into dins fire country

 

[mOojc]

Simple really. Say a Zelda comes at you and decides to hyphensmash (usmash while running). You shield the attack, and your opponent is completely open due to usmash's attack lag (not much, but enough). You then short hop out of your shield and bair - that's one of Zelda's strongest attacks - and your opponent is instantly KO'd. It's speed is faster than most (if not all) of Zelda's other attacks too. Bairing/fairing (AKA: kicking) out of shield protects you and is pretty much the ultimate counter-attack due to a sweetspotted kick's incredible knockback and damage.

Thank you very much! I shall practice this than.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

I, personally, have an easier time with a bair, actually. The minor difference makes a huge difference by my book XD

I definitely agree..

back-air seems to sweetspot alot easier from the ground.

 

[sFoster]

While we are talking about specifics on characters, can you all give me some advice on MK? He really annoyed me tonight playing him and I felt abused by his speed.

I have a replay of me vs a great metaknight saved, but I don't have the ability to go from the wii to the computer.

If anyone wants to go through the trouble I could send in the file and that would be a good basis for discussion. I didn't win the match but I was exploiting some MK weaknesses.

One thing I can tell you is that n-air will break through his tornado if you time it right.
You can also punish that torado because he is stunned momentarily upon landing, so either dash attack him or come down hard with a sweet spotted kick or n-air

When he's gliding try to get underneath of him .. he can't turn around when gliding, so if you dash past him then he can no longer attack you and he's got his back exposed.
Mostly use PLENTY of air-dodge.

Do not try to engage MK from above, you will get demolished.
Also keep in mind he has no projectiles, so he is forced to come to you.

Use that to your advantage, and employ din's to harass him and get some damage.

 

[sFoster]

Does anybody have advice on m@rth and 1ke's counter attack?

If you air kick or n-air them at the right angle then his counter attack will miss you..
Aside from that and grabs, are there any other attacks you can do without having to worry about his parry?

It breaks my heart to land a sweet spotted f-air, only to receive the damage to my own character.
I feel like the parry forces me into chaotic attack patterns and mind games..

The second they see an attack coming, I just end up hurting myself instead.
I realize you should be playing mind games anyway.. but these 2 characters are ALREADY difficult.

Throwing in this extra distraction when they already give me so much trouble is like salt in the wound.

 

[sFoster]

While we're on the subject of characters, I'll ask about people with long range like w0lf.

The thing about w0lf is that he can be out of range of my f-sm@sh, but I'll still be within range of his.
Even if I roll toward him, I'm still within his f-sm@sh range!

So I get injured because I can't fall back on my usual hand-to-hand combat abilities.
Normally I would do an n-air attack here to close the gap, but w0lfs character is specifically GOOD at attacking short hoppers.. I think it's his forward-b attack that sends him ripping diagonally forward so short hopping when you're near him just puts you right in it's path

To make matters worse his laser is faster than din's f1re, so w0lf can actually force you into approaching!
Nayru's love doesn't relfect the lasers back far enough, or quickly enough, to be worthwhile.

I've found the best approach from long range is to jump and then glide forward with din's for protection, but I feel like he has a strong advantage in close to mid-range combat.

Any idea's on what a zeld@ should do in this situation?

 

[CCC07]

While we're on the subject of characters, I'll ask about people with long range like w0lf.

The thing about w0lf is that he can be out of range of my f-sm@sh, but I'll still be within range of his.
Even if I roll toward him, I'm still within his f-sm@sh range!

So I get injured because I can't fall back on my usual hand-to-hand combat abilities.
Normally I would do an n-air attack here to close the gap, but w0lfs character is specifically GOOD at attacking short hoppers.. I think it's his forward-b attack that sends him ripping diagonally forward so short hopping when you're near him just puts you right in it's path

To make matters worse his laser is faster than din's f1re, so w0lf can actually force you into approaching!
Nayru's love doesn't relfect the lasers back far enough, or quickly enough, to be worthwhile.

I've found the best approach from long range is to jump and then glide forward with din's for protection, but I feel like he has a strong advantage in close to mid-range combat.

Any idea's on what a zeld@ should do in this situation?

I agree wolf seem to be one of zelda's hardest matchups. I fight a very good wolf (everyday)so it can be very challenging. wolf is invincible during his shine so he can short hop aireal - shine with out being punish. wolf d smash is crazy strong and fast (kills zelda around 70+). usually when wolf sh air i use forward tilt to hit him but the start up lag can be really annoying. his blaster shots beats dins fire and the knife on the blaster has insane priority. challenging wolf in the air is very dangerous and due to the multi air dogde system landing an up or down air can be very diffucult. once wolf knocks u off the stage it can be a bit of a pain getting back due to wolf's blaster and his fast air attacks. intially wolf's down b was thought to be worthless but it gives him invincible frames and repels n e attack. even lucas,ness PKT2 (thats when they hit themelves with PKT). following up an attack can be tricky b/c wolf can shine it , cancelling it out. wolf's scar can also be annoying and its an automatic sweetspot. u shouldnt have to worry about wolf F smash , its easy to see coming so just block. also wolf is a heavy char WTF??? so it can be a little hard to KO him. also egde gaurding and hogging can be very dangerous on wolf his up end with a kick that can messed u up bad when ur trying to edge hog. spacies are already a bad match up for zelda because they cause her to play aggressive which clearly they are better at. or running straight at them will cause u to be sheild grabbed. Dins fire also doesnt work as well B/c of their shine but when u knock them off the stage they to lure them with dins fire then pop them with up smash. zelda's smash attacks work well except the are DIable. nyaru love can be a good friend but the lag can be devastating sometimes. try fighting spacies on stages they are weaker on like castle seige,
pikimin, luigi's masion. changing to shiek maybe a choice but it seems that the spacies are eons better than her in air and on ground(to much nerfing **** u sakurai get it right).

 

[Random_X]

I have a replay of me vs a great metaknight saved, but I don't have the ability to go from the wii to the computer.

If anyone wants to go through the trouble I could send in the file and that would be a good basis for discussion. I didn't win the match but I was exploiting some MK weaknesses.

One thing I can tell you is that n-air will break through his tornado if you time it right.
You can also punish that torado because he is stunned momentarily upon landing, so either dash attack him or come down hard with a sweet spotted kick or n-air

When he's gliding try to get underneath of him .. he can't turn around when gliding, so if you dash past him then he can no longer attack you and he's got his back exposed.
Mostly use PLENTY of air-dodge.

Do not try to engage MK from above, you will get demolished.
Also keep in mind he has no projectiles, so he is forced to come to you.

Use that to your advantage, and employ din's to harass him and get some damage.

If you can find someone to do that...please do. I need to learn how to get past the glide since I see the good ones abused it and cancel it into an attack so much.

 

[AbsoluteZero0K]

I mained Ganondorf in Melee, and he turned into something that I no longer recognize (the nerf to his air fsmash totally killed my Ganon-game). I always liked Zelda's style, but as others have pointed out, she was not all that hot in Melee, and why play as Zelda when Shiek was the far superior choice?

My secondary characters from Melee-Link and Samus-also went through changes and I'm figuring them out. Basically, with everyone that I played with in Melee, tactics have changed.

Well, I call myself trying to main Zelda. My roomate from college mained Marth in Melee, and in Brawl, he's doing the same. Like the topic creator, Marth would dodge and shorthop while spamming c-stick smashes, and I would get beat down from one side of the stage to the other. And wow, don't let me catch myself in the air, because I would have no chance.

Even if I dodge him, he always seems to be able to get his attacks off faster than I can, OR, I wiff because Marth's range is better than Zelda's. I was looking for a video of Darkmusician vs Marth, but I have not seen any.

It's quite embarrassing when I face him over the WFC because he completely dominates the match. I'll try some of these tactics and see if there is any change.