Zelda, Gold Edition.

[Justbngoode]

As of 12/1/2015, the PMDT has officially stopped all development of Project M.

But what does that mean for us? where do we go from here?
I'm aware that a fair amount of you Zelda mains distaste her current kit and were really advocating for buffs.
Unfortunately such changes will never come (But Elf's custom builds will hopefully still be around), but that doesn't mean we hang up our controllers or swap mains. Our endeavors as advocates of Zelda has simply shifted platforms...

Instead of arguing why Zelda is bad, argue why she is good.

The reasoning behind this is that now Project M is in it's final version, negative reinforcement for both Zelda mains and outsiders conveys the message that people should not pick up Zelda or continue to play her.

I for one wish that this character continues her growth in this now solidified meta. We can only grow if we stop lamenting over what could be, and focus on what we have. As Zelda mains we have the most power in shaping the opinion of her, good or bad it's up to us.
~Goode

 

[Kaeldiar]

Why you should play Zelda: brought to you by someone who has enjoyed playing her for 15 years

The POWER: She has kill moves. Zelda has arguably the best toolkit in the game. Put her moveset on someone with better movement, survivability, or She has 3 disjointed aerial kill moves (fair, bair, up-air). Only Ganon and Bowser rival her in kill options. Dair is one of the strongest meteors in the game. D-smash sends at a low angle to kill fast fallers. F-smash kills everyone and has noticeable disjoint and range.

The FLASH: Can you say sparkles? Multihits galore, flashing, explosions, magic...this girl has it all. A great Zelda at work is incredibly fun to watch. She also has some of the coolest unique tech in the game. Teleport shortening, edge-canceling, controlling Din's, manipulating its movement, timing the explosions...You get to combo off of a mine that you can put literally anywhere on the stage. The kicks have an electric effect, so there's a bit more hitlag to give you that extra satisfaction when they land :D

The CHALLENGE: Zelda is tricky to play at a high level, but that's part of what makes her so rewarding. Landing b-throw > Din's timed explosion is NOT an easy task. There are a bunch of tiny details that go into the set-up and execution, but when you land it, the feeling is that much greater. Her Lightning Kicks only kill well on the first frame they are active. Her strong dair hitbox is about the size of the Rest hitbox. Here is a kick that MISSED. She has poor mobility, so landing those great hits isn't the easiest thing to do. She dies rather early due to a below-average weight and an incredibly low fall speed. But that means that you fought for the wins. You worked hard for what you got, and you won because you know how to play this game.

The FORGIVENESS: All that said, she has some tools that make other aspects of the game easy. Her grounded neutral-b has invincibility on start-up and shuts down standard approaches. You force the opponent to play YOUR game. You have one of the longest recoveries in the game, AND it can be shortened for mix-ups. You can even land-cancel it for 0 endlag if you're good enough! Her kicks are non-committal as long as you don't end up right in their face. That's right. Your BEST kill option is NON-COMMITTAL. You can short hop and throw out 2 of them before you land.

The MENTAL GAME: She is not as button heavy as most characters. This does not mean that she lacks tech skill, but rather that her challenges come from a different part of the game. As Zelda, you need to outsmart your opponent. She has DI mix-ups galore and fewer true combos. Instead, her combos rely a bit more on improvising and reading DI. If you would prefer to outwit your opponent, rather than outspeed them, you should consider Zelda. If you want to save your hands, you should consider Zelda.

Did I leave anything out? Oh! And she can transform into Sheik whenever you want. Picking Zelda means you get to play TWO characters.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Instead of arguing why Zelda is bad, argue why she is good.
The reasoning behind this is that now Project M is in it's final version, negative reinforcement for both Zelda mains and outsiders conveys the message that people should not pick up Zelda or continue to play her.

I have been saying this since 3.5 and I will continue saying it. Now that the changes have stopped we can finally focus on what we're left with. Yes her specials were heavily changed in these last patches but her core character has remained largely unchanged. She has so much untapped technology that she didn't have before while also retaining the creative setups provided by a Din's Fire trap. She's still super fun to play and now we don't have to worry about silly little nerfs every patch. -sigh- Imagine if 3.6 hadn't changed up b's hitboxes... Anyhow, the meta is still young and our character is far from fully explored. Just look at Melee! It's been out for more than a decade and people are still finding new technology. Thanks for posting this Goode, we have to keep our Triforces of Wisdom polished.

Oh, and I hope you Sheilda's are happy.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Oh, and I hope you Sheilda's are happy.

We are very happy, thank you for asking

 

[WhiteCrow]

Lucky punks. All I wanted was a longer wave-dash and a down special hold-to-transform, but those days of hope and speculation are over. If I ever transform in bracket it's a mistake 90% of the time. -Me when I try crouch cancel>teleport/Nayru- http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...acepalm.png/revision/latest?cb=20130505162445

Y'all better start coming out of the woodwork with some Sheilda combos/tech or I'm calling fraudulence.

 

[Mentor]

Let's take a moment to giggle with glee at the quirky stuff we do have:

1. Manually detonated full explosions up to 23 frames before it comes out naturally
2. Edge cancelling full up-b
3. Nayru's Glide
4. Nayru's Glide's up-b/down-b equivalent
5. Orbitals with dins (seriously, this would've been reeeeeeeeal easy to take away)
6. Auto-cancelled up-airs (aka jazz hands)
7. Invincible arm during u-tilt
8. A d-tilt that has guaranteed follow ups for almost the entire cast after 60%
9. Hitboxes on the beginning & end of up-b
10. An absurd aerial glide toss

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

So like. Zelda's cool and stuff.







I think.





No but really this is a placeholder post until I can actually write something up about this. Also thanks to Kael for linking my video <3

 

[Downdraft]

I respectfully disagree with the sentiment of this thread. Since the PMDT no longer has authority over the direction of this mod, I see two major outcomes for people that continue playing Project M. I see people playing 3.6 or eventually returning to 3.02. 3.6 was not intended to be the final build, and several characters feel unfinished thanks to bugs and flaws in their designs. Rolex and Seagull Joe are two notable professional Smash players that have tweeted about 3.02 being the final version, and they are far from the only ones that considered 3.02 to be the most fun version to date.

3.5 was a dark time that saw the exodus of many big names and drastic decreases in the viability of several characters. 3.6 managed to attract a few big names back such as Plup and ESAM, but several characters still needed additional work that has virtually no chance of actually occurring and being accepted by the PM community now. The community has already become divided over whether or not a community lead team should continue the project, but that wouldn't even be necessary if the 3.02 community and mod were resurrected.

Best wishes to players that favor 3.6 Zelda over 3.02/2.6b Zelda. I'd encourage people that prefer the 3.02 iterations of their character to begin having serious discussions with their friends or communities about whether 3.6 or 3.02 should be the version their community endorses.

Ideally, we could have the best of 3.02 and 3.6, but I don't see the overall community accepting new leadership, so players would sacrifice the new content that was added since 3.02.

As a player that likes Zelda and Pit, I don't see myself reentering the 3.6 competitive community unless I main Sheik or Meta Knight, which are top 10 characters. However, Meta Knight and Sheik were good in 3.02 too. I don't currently see how I can enjoy 3.6 outside casual matches now since 3.02 is without question better for the 4 characters I've grown to like since I started playing PM nearly 3 whole years ago.

 

[Justbngoode]

I respectfully disagree with the sentiment of this thread. Since the PMDT no longer has authority over the direction of this mod, I see two major outcomes for people that continue playing Project M. I see people playing 3.6 or eventually returning to 3.02. 3.6 was not intended to be the final build, and several characters feel unfinished thanks to bugs and flaws in their designs. Rolex and Seagull Joe are two notable professional Smash players that have tweeted about 3.02 being the final version, and they are far from the only ones that considered 3.02 to be the most fun version to date.

3.5 was a dark time that saw the exodus of many big names and drastic decreases in the viability of several characters. 3.6 managed to attract a few big names back such as Plup and ESAM, but several characters still needed additional work that has virtually no chance of actually occurring and being accepted by the PM community now. The community has already become divided over whether or not a community lead team should continue the project, but that wouldn't even be necessary if the 3.02 community and mod were resurrected.

Best wishes to players that favor 3.6 Zelda over 3.02/2.6b Zelda. I'd encourage people that prefer the 3.02 iterations of their character to begin having serious discussions with their friends or communities about whether 3.6 or 3.02 should be the version their community endorses.

Ideally, we could have the best of 3.02 and 3.6, but I don't see the overall community accepting new leadership, so players would sacrifice the new content that was added since 3.02.

As a player that likes Zelda and Pit, I don't see myself reentering the 3.6 competitive community unless I main Sheik or Meta Knight, which are top 10 characters. However, Meta Knight and Sheik were good in 3.02 too. I don't currently see how I can enjoy 3.6 outside casual matches now since 3.02 is without question better for the 4 characters I've grown to like since I started playing PM nearly 3 whole years ago.

Gonna be brief since I'm on my phone.

Are you under the conception that the PMDT would release a product that they considered inferior? The majority of PM players agree that 3.6 is the most perfected version of PM.

As somebody that knows Seagull Joe personally, I know that he just wants busted Diddy Kong again. I can't talk much on Rolex's behalf, but he hasn't put much time into new snake, if I've heard correctly.

Trying to revert to 3.02 will only create a split in the community, when we need to unite. Top 8 characters in 3.0 completely retconned the rest of the cast, so I don't know why you'd want to go to an update where Zelda is still not even good, IMO. The level of power in between characters is so fluctuated and high/varied that player skill rarely can make a difference, when in post 3.0 the power levels are notably more normalised, which is ultimately more balanced.

Plus there's the fact that the meta isn't even that developed, and you're making long term judgements off of the equivalent of melee first tier list.

What do you know, that wasn't short at all.

 

[Downdraft]

Gonna be brief since I'm on my phone.

Are you under the conception that the PMDT would release a product that they considered inferior? The majority of PM players agree that 3.6 is the most perfected version of PM.

As somebody that knows Seagull Joe personally, I know that he just wants busted Diddy Kong again. I can't talk much on Rolex's behalf, but he hasn't put much time into new snake, if I've heard correctly.

Trying to revert to 3.02 will only create a split in the community, when we need to unite. Top 8 characters in 3.0 completely retconned the rest of the cast, so I don't know why you'd want to go to an update where Zelda is still not even good, IMO. The level of power in between characters is so fluctuated and high/varied that player skill rarely can make a difference, when in post 3.0 the power levels are notably more normalised, which is ultimately more balanced.

Plus there's the fact that the meta isn't even that developed, and you're making long term judgements off of the equivalent of melee first tier list.

What do you know, that wasn't short at all.

I find 3.02 Zelda more enjoyable. If I'm going to play a version of Zelda that isn't good relative to the rest of the cast, then I'm going to pick one of her two most equipped iterations. I don't believe Zelda has the tools to compete long term in 3.6. F-air, B-air, D-air and Nayru's Love were unarguably nerfed. Farore's, Din's, and Jab lost important utility that made up for Zelda's shortcomings. U-smash and her throws do less damage. The change in the BKB/KBG values for U-smash is a nerf in the Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Falcon matchups. Fox, Falco, and Falcon are common characters and difficult matchups for Zelda. When one pays close attention to Zelda's changes since 2.6b, they can see her matchups versus fast fallers getting increasingly difficult.

I am not under the conception that the PMDT would release a product that they considered inferior, but the balance team and Jedi council's decisions have been far from perfect. I can see how the majority may consider 3.6 the most perfected version of PM, but many of the "lost" would disagree. Furthermore, I think the community's opinions of Zelda range from apathy to hatred. With that in mind, I don't understand why you'd side with most of the PM players when most of them haven't stood for our character. Additionally, people's views are easily influenced by their characters' standings. People that play characters that are widely considered in the Top 25 in the current meta or projected to be Top 25 in the long term may express satisfaction with the game's current state. People that play Bottom 15 characters might enjoy the game while expressing disapproval for the current state. At the very least, there are numerous moves in the game that aren't functioning as intended or designed. If one's character has several such moves, then he or she is now stuck playing a bugged character.

 

[Karmaic Avidity]

If my local scene returned to 3.02, I'd probably stop playing in tournaments. 3.02 was much more unbalanced than 3.6, and there were a lot of things that the DT did to remedy the game as a whole, even outside of characters.

The new tether mechanics and the ledge grab limit were amazing to combat stalling and other such shenanigans. I'd much rather deal with 3.6 G&W than 3.02 Mewtwo and Diddy. Zelda has much more potential in this patch, to be completely honest with you. She had a lot of basic things just missing from her kit in 3.02. Not to mention, everyone I talk to, including other Zelda mains and myself, believe that 3.02 Din's were extremely unhealthy for gameplay.

3.6 is by far the most balanced version. Just because Zelda doesn't have some broken mechanic doesn't mean she's absolutely terrible. She's kind of bad, but there's a lot to be done, especially since we have time to flesh out this kit. We have boundless tech on our specials, and a LOT of combo potential. We can also finally figure out how to supplement Zelda's lack of a neutral game, rather than relying on just spamming the screen with 3 mines.

Aside from Zelda, there are a lot of characters that are either good, or just like Zelda, and have flaws, but are viable. The only three exceptions in my mind are DDD, Bowser, Squirtle, and Olimar. But here's the thing; They've always been either terrible, or just silly to the point they had to nerf them. We've seen what Ripple did with DDD in this patch, and that was commendable, however silly and annoying it was to play/watch. I'm sad that he's choosing to drop the big penguin, but that's his decision.

3.02 was a fun patch, but it was so detrimental to the game's health and design. There were so many awful things that going back to it would make me so upset that I have to deal with it again.

 

[Downdraft]

If my local scene returned to 3.02, I'd probably stop playing in tournaments. 3.02 was much more unbalanced than 3.6, and there were a lot of things that the DT did to remedy the game as a whole, even outside of characters.

The new tether mechanics and the ledge grab limit were amazing to combat stalling and other such shenanigans. I'd much rather deal with 3.6 G&W than 3.02 Mewtwo and Diddy. Zelda has much more potential in this patch, to be completely honest with you. She had a lot of basic things just missing from her kit in 3.02. Not to mention, everyone I talk to, including other Zelda mains and myself, believe that 3.02 Din's were extremely unhealthy for gameplay.

3.6 is by far the most balanced version. Just because Zelda doesn't have some broken mechanic doesn't mean she's absolutely terrible. She's kind of bad, but there's a lot to be done, especially since we have time to flesh out this kit. We have boundless tech on our specials, and a LOT of combo potential. We can also finally figure out how to supplement Zelda's lack of a neutral game, rather than relying on just spamming the screen with 3 mines.

Aside from Zelda, there are a lot of characters that are either good, or just like Zelda, and have flaws, but are viable. The only three exceptions in my mind are DDD, Bowser, Squirtle, and Olimar. But here's the thing; They've always been either terrible, or just silly to the point they had to nerf them. We've seen what Ripple did with DDD in this patch, and that was commendable, however silly and annoying it was to play/watch. I'm sad that he's choosing to drop the big penguin, but that's his decision.

3.02 was a fun patch, but it was so detrimental to the game's health and design. There were so many awful things that going back to it would make me so upset that I have to deal with it again.

I agree that there were many awful things, but should fun not matter the most? The primary purpose of video games generally is entertainment, which is twofold. PM 3.02 was very entertaining to watch and even fun to play. While 3.6 designs are less toxic, making the game healthier, some characters are much less fun to play due to their increased limitations. I believe most would rather play a character that is or seems OP rather than one that feels underwhelming. Many of the Zelda optimists around here give me the impression that they don't think she feels weak.

Zelda didn't need her specials reverted in a special patch. She needed compensation for the power she lost. 3.5 drastically reduced the power levels of an already average character. The PMDT never got around to rebuilding the character after they tore much of her down. I don't think she's terrible. Zelda just has to work harder than most other characters for the win. Matchup inexperience hurts her much more than many other characters too since she can't dictate the match when facing superior players or better characters that understand the matchup. I would have preferred 3.5 start from scratch rather than ultimately leave us with this unfinished result. It was unjust not to properly compensate Zelda for what she lost. It's not fair that other characters are able to do what Zelda is disallowed. For instance, why does Falcon have reliable setups into knee? Why does Falcon's D-air have sizable hitboxes? Why is Snake allowed to control the ground and air with his weapons? Why are Shine and Magnet so much safer than Nayru's on shield? Zelda is a character that generates many questions from the opposition and her players. Well designed characters have little to ask for from either side.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I think you should read this Downdraft, if you haven't already.(https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3vh34x/my_own_personal_apology_to_the_community_the_pmdt/)
I also recommend watching the most recent Salt Mines since they voice many of my opinions. The PMDT obviously doesn't want to be in this position, and they have made clear that they do not consent to pushing forward development. The community has already started recuperating around 3.6, why continue separating the community? Just (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybb6HPDENnE&ab_channel=RehanGifari)

Every character has weaknesses, some more exploitable than others. That's how all fighting games end up. (Also seriously? at the Snake comment, Din's can cover even more space). Falcon, Fox, and Lucas are all heavy combo fodder for Zelda, so our punishes just have to be really good. If they get grabbed they could die. If they get up smashed they die. Why aren't shine and magnet as big or high knock back as Nayru's? Why can't they land cancel those options or Nayru's Glide like Zelda can? How come Zelda gets lightning bair and fair when Falcon's knee is slower? It goes both ways. The problem with these conversations has been that there has been the chance for things to change. For some reason, without a Zelda main in the PMDT, we thought that posting here and seeking out the PMDT would change things. But it didn't, things are the same, and the developers are done. We need to accept this iteration and try and move forward. There is still a lot to discuss regarding Zelda, and a new website to help organize Zelda mains like never before. I plan on contributing articles and guides as soon as possible to get the ball rolling.

If you plan on posting more about further modding 3.6 I suggest you make a new thread, as this one was created as a focus on 3.6 as a Gold edition. I'm sure others who support your opinion would join you.

 

[Downdraft]

I think you should read this Downdraft, if you haven't already.(https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3vh34x/my_own_personal_apology_to_the_community_the_pmdt/)
I also recommend watching the most recent Salt Mines since they voice many of my opinions. The PMDT obviously doesn't want to be in this position, and they have made clear that they do not consent to pushing forward development. The community has already started recuperating around 3.6, why continue separating the community? Just (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybb6HPDENnE&ab_channel=RehanGifari)

Every character has weaknesses, some more exploitable than others. That's how all fighting games end up. (Also seriously? at the Snake comment, Din's can cover even more space). Falcon, Fox, and Lucas are all heavy combo fodder for Zelda, so our punishes just have to be really good. If they get grabbed they could die. If they get up smashed they die. Why aren't shine and magnet as big or high knock back as Nayru's? Why can't they land cancel those options or Nayru's Glide like Zelda can? How come Zelda gets lightning bair and fair when Falcon's knee is slower? It goes both ways. The problem with these conversations has been that there has been the chance for things to change. For some reason, without a Zelda main in the PMDT, we thought that posting here and seeking out the PMDT would change things. But it didn't, things are the same, and the developers are done. We need to accept this iteration and try and move forward. There is still a lot to discuss regarding Zelda, and a new website to help organize Zelda mains like never before. I plan on contributing articles and guides as soon as possible to get the ball rolling.

If you plan on posting more about further modding 3.6 I suggest you make a new thread, as this one was created as a focus on 3.6 as a Gold edition. I'm sure others who support your opinion would join you.

Has this new website been launched?

Regarding past iterations of Zelda, Highlights such as Zelda Can Jab, FS| Zhime, and Project M 2.6 @ Pound V.5 - Chillindude (Wolf) vs Zhime (Zelda) are irreplaceable IMO. Decreasing the KBG of F-tilt and removing the supersweetspots makes several of these highlights impossible under identical circumstances in 3.6. Most people see the previous iteration of Din's as OP, free damage, polarizing, or overcentralizing, but much of Zhime's footage proves otherwise. Part of Zelda's bad reputation comes from the way many people play her, and none of us have the authority to dictate that Zelda mains play in a more interactive style.

I'll resume my absence. Good luck to all whom continue to explore the character competitively.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Has this new website been launched?

www.*****************

FS| Zhime,

YO! That's me at 0:38!

 

[Downdraft]

www.*****************

YO! That's me at 0:38!

I've seen that website. I was thinking that the Zelda community had created their own site specifically for us.
Anyways, I'm done expressing my dissent.

 

[4tlas]

Y'all better start coming out of the woodwork with some Sheilda combos/tech or I'm calling fraudulence.

I've been doing both since I started playing in 3.02. Some are even in the gfy thread.