Your views on SLHG and its Meta

[CaP_Omega]

General information of "SLHG"​

SLHG is an acronym that stands for: "Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity". The SLHG game setup grants each character a landlag buff and increased nuanced downward velocity, emphasizing certain approaching strategies and allowing for more combos to be possible.

Links to Referential Content​

There are a few YouTube accounts that currently (while this thread becomes active and before then) hold video content of matches between players and representations of character potential with the SLHG game setup. Some channels would be:

Zaddthemadd
https://www.youtube.com/user/hellachill42069
Artful Hobbes
https://www.youtube.com/user/PokeH0bbes77
TheRealCarterer
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealCartererer​

My Views on SLHG
(DISCLAIMER: if you would prefer to preserve your opinion based on your own experience and views before your vote, do not read the following paragraph before the next subtitle)
​

It may be assumed that by my way of political speech I have no experience with and little viewing of SLHG matches, and those assumptions would be correct. I am simply assuming that whatever I say after this statement is true.
It appears to me that the SLHG game setup has potential for balancing the roster as a whole, as it seems in this mode that characters with the stronger overall neutral game to start with have a much less strong recovery, and characters with an exclusively close ranged moveset can now easily challenge characters with a vast ranged moveset (applicable video example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ7WZWw_HEM). Because of this, I personally believe that the SLHG setup is more fit for developing the tournament based meta of this game.

Requests for this Thread​

Please state your ideas and responses politely and respectfully. Be honest to yourself when you vote. Try your best to consider the other side of things even though you don't like someone else's views.

Thank you.

- CaP Omega

 

[FP-Takyon]

I think the sheer amount of trouble you'd have to go through to get however many sets of equipment you'd need to both have slhg and also somehow balance out all stats to neutral makes this pretty unfeasible.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Actually, if you believe that would be the case, you may honestly be stoked by how easy it can be to unlock Smooth Lander on Super Smash Bros. for WiiU. You can read about that (and much more about SLHG) through:

• this thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/smooth-lander-and-heavy-gravity-slhg-update-online.383506/

There is always hope.

 

[Balgorxz]

I think the sheer amount of trouble you'd have to go through to get however many sets of equipment you'd need to both have slhg and also somehow balance out all stats to neutral makes this pretty unfeasible.

replies like this makes me believe people only read the title in smashboards, SLHG stuff is easier to unlock than moves, even easier than unlocking all the characters.

 

[Big-Cat]

This game isn't Melee or Project M. People should make strategies for this game and think of **** to do for neutral that doesn't involve combos.

 

[Bedoop]

I'm questioning why something only available in the Wii U Version is being specified in the 3DS Boards

Aside from that, I sorta like SLHG.
But I like my Smash the way it is. :b

 

[CaP_Omega]

This game isn't Melee or Project M. People should make strategies for this game and think of **** to do for neutral that doesn't involve combos.

Honestly, I never thought about it that much, but looking at things now, we could use some study on strategies about getting into neutral game and staying there. To me, it seems like using alternate special moves could be the option, but there may be more techs that could be figured out alongside that (ex: Sonic's boosted Spin Jump).

I'm questioning why something only available in the Wii U Version is being specified in the 3DS Boards

Aside from that, I sorta like SLHG.
But I like my Smash the way it is. :b

That's actually a great question, and it makes me wonder if this thread can be moved to the Smash Bros. for WiiU General Discussion board. Is that possible?

 

[IsmaR]

That's actually a great question, and it makes me wonder if this thread can be moved to the Smash Bros. for WiiU General Discussion board. Is that possible?

On it.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Wow, nice! Thank you!

 

[LancerStaff]

I've messed around with it. Really don't think it helps anything gameplay wise enough to offset the balance issues. That, and it requires it's own learning curve since it's both not Smash 4 and not Melee, and people aren't going to invest time in something people aren't playing.

 

[Muro]

This game isn't Melee or Project M. People should make strategies for this game and think of **** to do for neutral that doesn't involve combos.

What makes Smash 4 unique is its customization. So SLHG is not melee or project M, it's sm4sh. Melee doesn't have a monopoly on combos.

I've messed around with it. Really don't think it helps anything gameplay wise enough to offset the balance issues. That, and it requires it's own learning curve since it's both not Smash 4 and not Melee, and people aren't going to invest time in something people aren't playing.

But we can't really know about the balance until we see it tested though. I think the hype it would generate for smash 4 would be very much worth it. People like combos, and SLHG has tons of them.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I've messed around with it. Really don't think it helps anything gameplay wise enough to offset the balance issues. That, and it requires it's own learning curve since it's both not Smash 4 and not Melee, and people aren't going to invest time in something people aren't playing.

Well, honestly, I cannot agree with that statement.
Firstly, because I've analyzed enough to know that the gravity does enough to certain characters to effect their recoveries in such a way that it makes up for their great neutral game (for example: Sonic's recovery abilities become hardly effective at all and that makes up for him being so fast and efficient when he's got control of the field. Duck Hunt Duo's recovery abilities are reduced and that makes up for him having range and versatility in neutral game, etc.), and character's who will still have ok recovery abilities will also receive a pretty good neutral game (for example: Ganondorf still keeps his recovery and that would be equated by him receiving decent control while in neutral game and while edgegaurding). You can see all of that by watching videos of SLHG matches and combo presentations from links that have already been placed in this thread, as well as this one, especially if you are interested in balancing by the recovery-to-neutral-game ratio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kESEW0sz3Ds.

Secondly, even though SLHG does "have" a different learning curve, it still is the same game; you can still make the same movements if you choose to but you can do even more because new elements are brought to the table. It doesn't require much more finesse to make these elements work out either, because Smooth Lander makes it so your landlag is reduced automatically (no more having to press a button to make a smooth landing). And it's not Melee, either, because dodges and shields still have a certain priority in this mode, and SSB4 has had that as part of its meta for almost as long as it's been out.

Thirdly, if you have looked at the content that is now here in this thread, you would realise that people are using the SLHG setup.

 

[LancerStaff]

What makes Smash 4 unique is its customization. So SLHG is not melee or project M, it's sm4sh. Melee doesn't have a monopoly on combos.



But we can't really know about the balance until we see it tested though. I think the hype it would generate for smash 4 would be very much worth it. People like combos, and SLHG has tons of them.

How many combos are even created? How many are lost from losing autocancel timing being impossible from short hop? How many characters are invalidated

 

[Muro]

How many combos are even created? How many are lost from losing autocancel timing being impossible from short hop?

Well I don't have a number for you if that's what you're asking, but it's not even close. SLHG has a lot more combos.

How many characters are invalidated

Hard to say without actual results, some characters get worse and some get better. I'd guess the number of viable characters stays around the same, give or take a couple.

 

[CaP_Omega]

How many combos are even created? How many are lost from losing autocancel timing being impossible from short hop? How many characters are invalidated

I don't have the energy to tell you exactly how many and which combos are possible and I don't have the equipment to tell you anything about frame data, right now. All I should ask is for you to look at the videos and just think about if it is possible to dodge out of combos, and for anyone who is more knowledgeable than I am about this situation to see that I am wrong in anything I'm saying.

Combos are not lost from auto canceling being more difficult because auto canceling is only used for dodging. If you try to make a better hit, rather than a better wall or a better avoidance tactic, you will actually be able to do combos.
(Edit: I just remembered that auto-cancelling is an effect of landing lag from an aerial attack being similar to that of an L-cancelled aerial in Melee. I was thinking of dodge cancelling. My mistake.
That aside, auto cancelling does not become less effective but more versatile among the cast due to the effect of Smooth Lander.)

I am nobody to say which characters are valid or not. I do not collect frame data, I do not record combos, I do not make tier lists and I do not run tournaments.
However, if you want an answer straight from me, I would allow every character to be viable to start with. More information would have to be recorded in order to decide which characters should not be viable because there has yet to be a record of any character offering particularly lacking abilities or results in an SSB4 - SLHG tournament.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well I don't have a number for you if that's what you're asking, but it's not even close. SLHG has a lot more combos.



Hard to say without actual results, some characters get worse and some get better. I'd guess the number of viable characters stays around the same, give or take a couple.

Not from my experience, no. There's less combos in SSB4 due to the hitstun mechanics and reducing landing lag doesn't do a whole lot.

And the problem with SLHG is that certain characters are just ruined and not merely low tier due to the gravity messing up their recovery.

I don't have the energy to tell you exactly how many and which combos are possible and I don't have the equipment to tell you anything about frame data, right now. All I should ask is for you to look at the videos and just think about if it is possible to dodge out of combos, and for anyone who is more knowledgeable than I am about this situation to see that I am wrong in anything I'm saying.

Combos are not lost from auto canceling being more difficult because auto canceling is only used for dodging. If you try to make a better hit, rather than a better wall or a better avoidance tactic, you will actually be able to do combos.

I am nobody to say which characters are valid or not. I do not collect frame data, I do not record combos, I do not make tier lists and I do not run tournaments.
However, if you want an answer straight from me, I would allow every character to be viable to start with. More information would have to be recorded in order to decide which characters should not be viable because there has yet to be a record of any character offering particularly lacking abilities and results in an SSB4 - SLHG tournament.

I've watched and I'm not remotely impressed. And auto cancels are incredibly important for many characters' ability to approach. Most of the currently agile characters rely on them and the game is slown down by their removal.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Not from my experience, no. There's less combos in SSB4 due to the hitstun mechanics and reducing landing lag doesn't do a whole lot.

And the problem with SLHG is that certain characters are just ruined and not merely low tier due to the gravity messing up their recovery.



I've watched and I'm not remotely impressed. And auto cancels are incredibly important for many characters' ability to approach. Most of the currently agile characters rely on them and the game is slown down by their removal.

Look, at this point, you're just being obstinate and self contradicting. Hitstun frames are the same when using SLHG but landing lag is reduced and gravity is increased so it is much easier for every character to make followups and combos - it takes away some but many others are given.
If you believe otherwise, fine, but unless you can elaborate on your beliefs without dismissing any possibe way that this meta could develop, you can get out of here. People are trying to enjoy figuring something out and you're hurting it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Look, at this point, you're just being obstinate and self contradicting. Hitstun frames are the same when using SLHG but landing lag is reduced and gravity is increased so it is much easier for every character to make followups and combos - it takes away some but many others are given.
If you believe otherwise, fine, but unless you can elaborate on your beliefs without dismissing any possibe way that this meta could develop, you can get out of here. People are trying to enjoy figuring something out and you're hurting it.

Quick question, what's the optimal way to DI out of combos in Smash 4?

 

[CaP_Omega]

Quick question, what's the optimal way to DI out of combos in Smash 4?

That question does not have to do with this thread directly. I would recommend asking that question on a thread about DI and/or Vectoring in SSB4 to avoid going against forum guidelines.

 

[LancerStaff]

That question does not have to do with this thread directly. I would recommend asking that question on a thread about DI and/or Vectoring in SSB4 to avoid going against forum guidelines.

I ask because people still don't know how to DI properly in Smash 4. What would of been the best DI before is almost always the worst now, and just about every combo that goes past two hits that I've seen can be easily DI'd out of on reaction. By the time somebody goes "pro" in SLHG people are going to realize that very few of the added combos actually work in practice.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I ask because people still don't know how to DI properly in Smash 4. What would of been the best DI before is almost always the worst now, and just about every combo that goes past two hits that I've seen can be easily DI'd out of on reaction. By the time somebody goes "pro" in SLHG people are going to realize that very few of the added combos actually work in practice.

Well then I would ask that question to someone who has the information and equipment to find out what works and what doesn't. Once again, I am not equipped to record combos or collect frame data - someone else is likely to be able to do this. All I can say toward answering your statement is that with how difficult it is for most characters to be able to do combos in SSB4 due to how little reach or speed they have is likely solved by increasing the gravity (in order to bring aerial bound characters closer to the ground faster) and reducing landing lag (in order to make it so after a player's character uses an aerial attack they can become active within 1/3 of a second - 1/5 of a second after hitting the ground). As for assuming that professionals will inevitably find out otherwise: I would leave that decision to them. They are the ones with the equipment and skills who are capable of finding out what information could be true and what can actually be done.

 

[Muro]

I ask because people still don't know how to DI properly in Smash 4. What would of been the best DI before is almost always the worst now, and just about every combo that goes past two hits that I've seen can be easily DI'd out of on reaction. By the time somebody goes "pro" in SLHG people are going to realize that very few of the added combos actually work in practice.

lol is this serious? do you think there will only be 1 hit non combos in vanilla then? why does your ridiculous scenario only apply to added combos? DI is not magic, there's a limit to what it can do.

SLHG has a lot more combos, and it's not close.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well then I would ask that question to someone who has the information and equipment to find out what works and what doesn't. Once again, I am not equipped to record combos or collect frame data - someone else is likely to be able to do this. All I can say toward answering your statement is that with how difficult it is for most characters to be able to do combos in SSB4 due to how little reach or speed they have is likely solved by increasing the gravity (in order to bring aerial bound characters closer to the ground faster) and reducing landing lag (in order to make it so after a player's character uses an aerial attack they can become active within 1/3 of a second - 1/5 of a second after hitting the ground). As for assuming that professionals will inevitably find out otherwise: I would leave that decision to them. They are the ones with the equipment and skills who are capable of finding out what information could be true and what can actually be done.

I've told you already, my personal experience says that 90% of these combos are easily escaped. Every decent smash player I've heard talk about SLHG says the exact same thing. Until we get somebody (that actually knows what they're doing) proves that there's significantly more combos people are going to be highly skeptical.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I've told you already, my personal experience says that 90% of these combos are easily escaped. Every decent smash player I've heard talk about SLHG says the exact same thing. Until we get somebody (that actually knows what they're doing) proves that there's significantly more combos people are going to be highly skeptical.

Okay, and I haven't argued against that. What I am arguing against is the message that you have been projecting throughout your postings on this thread which now seem to be about there actually being less combo potential and less balance, because you have mentioned that people do not know how to DI properly and that auto cancelling priority is reduced due to reduced landing lag in SLHG, neither statement making any sense because you fail to bring any proof of there being a better way to DI than what has already been figured out and because auto cancelling works faster in SLHG by nature of Smooth Lander. And if people are skeptical, let them be skeptical - that's how the game is figured out. You get nowhere if you expect people to believe you when you say "things you believe in don't work because I say so and whatever I say is true so believe in me". Other people have brains, too.

 

[Roukiske]

It's cool and everything, but the patches and balance changes are not (to my knowledge) catering to this mode. Playing Sm4sh they way you want to is great and I encourage that, but Nintendo is sort of lending a small (very small) hand in competitive Sm4sh in the direction of "Normal" smash mode.

Some users have speculated some physics changes in the recent patch. With this in mind they can potentially fix many oddities which gives me more hope for the base game.

 

[CaP_Omega]

It's cool and everything, but the patches and balance changes are not (to my knowledge) catering to this mode. Playing Sm4sh they way you want to is great and I encourage that, but Nintendo is sort of lending a small (very small) hand in competitive Sm4sh in the direction of "Normal" smash mode.

Some users have speculated some physics changes in the recent patch. With this in mind they can potentially fix many oddities which gives me more hope for the base game.

I would believe the same, however I think that any changes that would effect the base game would have to be drastic in order to hurt the SLHG game setup at all. It's safest to take the patch as a small change at first and then to test and research it in order to look at things in a broader perspective.

 

[Kurri ★]

So why is there no option that disagrees with SLHG?

 

[CaP_Omega]

So why is there no option that disagrees with SLHG?

Because this board is meant to help the growth of SLHG; if someone does't want to try it, test it, promote it or make it a standard, it can be easily assumed that they want to stop it. And all I want to do here is help the meta of this game grow so we can make the game more depthy and more exciting. To stop it would be like trying to hold someone's head underwater.
(Edit: this is important to consider because the true possibilities in SLHG are still yet to be recorded, and there has yet to be a representation of which characters perform best in the pit of battle in this mode. Also, as Muro has said: "People like combos, and SLHG has tons of them".)

 

[LancerStaff]

lol is this serious? do you think there will only be 1 hit non combos in vanilla then? why does your ridiculous scenario only apply to added combos? DI is not magic, there's a limit to what it can do.

SLHG has a lot more combos, and it's not close.

Escaping combos is easy in Smash 4, just hold up or up and right. Anybody with any reaction time whatsoever will try to DI after the first hit, right? Now imagine when everybody DIs the complete wrong way. It would appear there's more combos then there actually is. It's like Sonic's Bthrow all over again. It killed super early because people were DI'ing the worst possible way during the lengthy animation and killing themselves quicker.

Okay, and I haven't argued against that. What I am arguing against is the message that you have been projecting throughout your postings on this thread which now seem to be about there actually being less combo potential and less balance, because you have mentioned that people do not know how to DI properly and that auto cancelling priority is reduced due to reduced landing lag in SLHG, neither statement making any sense because you fail to bring any proof of there being a better way to DI than what has already been figured out and because auto cancelling works faster in SLHG by nature of Smooth Lander. And if people are skeptical, let them be skeptical - that's how the game is figured out. You get nowhere if you expect people to believe you when you say "things you believe in don't work because I say so and whatever I say is true so believe in me". Other people have brains, too.

I'm still seeing actual professional players DI the complete wrong way. Not hard to assume that lesser players still haven't heard.

Smooth Lander does jack for autocancels, and the lag even with SL is much greater then an autocancel.

They have brains and, assuming they can read, now know how to properly DI in SSB4. So now when they go to try SLHG they can see the game for what it actually is.

 

[CaP_Omega]

Escaping combos is easy in Smash 4, just hold up or up and right. Anybody with any reaction time whatsoever will try to DI after the first hit, right? Now imagine when everybody DIs the complete wrong way. It would appear there's more combos then there actually is. It's like Sonic's Bthrow all over again. It killed super early because people were DI'ing the worst possible way during the lengthy animation and killing themselves quicker.



I'm still seeing actual professional players DI the complete wrong way. Not hard to assume that lesser players still haven't heard.

Smooth Lander does jack for autocancels, and the lag even with SL is much greater then an autocancel.

They have brains and, assuming they can read, now know how to properly DI in SSB4. So now when they go to try SLHG they can see the game for what it actually is.

Then if that method of DI and Vectoring can take away any and all combo potential in SLHG, that's fine. There is not a %100 chance that someone will DI or Vector properly unless they are holding back from their opponent %100 of the time (even then it can be difficult to tell which way your opponent is going to send you). And if the situation is otherwise, the player can already react fast enough that they can counteract every movement their opponent makes - that would require the ability to react to vibrations in real time at sublight speed or the ability to read inputs from the source and to consistently act against them. And I have not seen that there is any scientific record of anyone being able to do either in the history of Smash.
All in all, whatever happens with DI and Vectoring in SLHG I will be satisfied with. I will still know what I have already mentioned is honest, as these are just my beliefs from considering timing, assuming possibility and viewing video content.

PS: The landing lag for aerials being "much greater" than an auto cancelled aerial still seems like an exaggeration because landing lag from aerial attacks, once again, varies from 1/3 of a second - 1/5 of a second in SLHG (that is a significant decrease in lag from the ratio of roughly 3/4 of a second - 1/3 of a second), which is close to instant in SSB4; at the very least, auto cancelling is still possible with Smooth Lander.

 

[Muro]

Escaping combos is easy in Smash 4, just hold up or up and right. Anybody with any reaction time whatsoever will try to DI after the first hit, right? Now imagine when everybody DIs the complete wrong way. It would appear there's more combos then there actually is. It's like Sonic's Bthrow all over again. It killed super early because people were DI'ing the worst possible way during the lengthy animation and killing themselves quicker.

lol is that your big secret? DI out? lmao. Dude we know what DI is, HG prevents you from going far, while keeping the same hitstun, whatever combos you could DI out of in SLHG you can definitely DI out of in vanilla. Meanwhile there are a ton of situations you can't DI out of, and even in the situations you can, keeping the chase going is easier because air dodges are horrible in HG.