Your opinion: Is the conserving air dodge good now?

[Quillion]

As in: does it better balance its utility with the game's offense. It was OP in Brawl but these changes have been made to it:

• You can no longer cancel hitstun with it, actually allowing combos this time.
• Carelessly air dodging near the ground gives you landing lag. It means no more short-hop air-dodges that render projectiles (other than Falco's Blaster) useless, and air dodges are now much easier to punish by the slower attackers.

But these problems remain:

• You can still do it as many times as you like in the air.
• You can still spam it as much as ever.

 

[Quillion]

Bumping.

I really need to see the opinions here.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

The air-dodging, though changed up a bit from Brawl, is still way too easily spammed and rewarding. Most people I play online do nothing but air dodge all the way through the air, and although you can't immediately cancel hitstun, you can still air-dodge pretty dang fast out of a hit and attack immediately.
I really wish they had brought back the air-dodging that was in Melee, because the style of air-dodging that we have now just adds too much defensive-rewarding play to an already defense-heavy game. At least in Melee you had to actually be careful about air-dodging because you only had one and it put you in special fall. Now all you have to do is spam the button in the air and you're safe.

 

[smashbrolink]

If you were limited to one air-dodge per jump, meaning one for your first jump and one for your second, it would be far more balanced.
Maybe reduce the landing lag a smidge as compensation for that draw-back? But even without it, limiting the number of times you can do it in the air would make the game far more balanced.

Or, if limiting the number of times it can be done is too harsh, then put a forced delay between consecutive air dodges.
Maybe a full second between them? Does that sound fair?

 

[Lichi]

I do not think that the air dodge is a huge problem, it is easily baited and punished. I liked the Melee version better though - being able to change direction and therefore be limited to a single dodge was a great thing. Too bad it allowed for glitched movements...

 

[Quillion]

I actually prefer using the conserving dodge over the directional dodge, but I still see that in Brawl, it pretty much broke the game.

It's not that it's unpunishable, it's just really annoying to have to deal with since the dodger controls the pace of the match instead of the attacker.

But even with the massive nerf, it's still bad?

 

[Quillion]

I do not think that the air dodge is a huge problem, it is easily baited and punished. I liked the Melee version better though - being able to change direction and therefore be limited to a single dodge was a great thing. Too bad it allowed for glitched movements...

What if we had the directional air dodge WITHOUT wavetechniques?

 

[WinterShorts]

What if we had the directional air dodge WITHOUT wavetechniques?

How would that be possible? Would someone have to make the wavedash lag as soon as it lands in order for it not to be exploited?

 

[viewtifulduck82]

How would that be possible? Would someone have to make the wavedash lag as soon as it lands in order for it not to be exploited?

No, you'd just have to make it so that no momentum is carried on from the air dodge. I don't think people would want it back as much if that happened.

 

[Quillion]

How would that be possible? Would someone have to make the wavedash lag as soon as it lands in order for it not to be exploited?

Just make it so that if you air dodge into the ground, all your momentum is cancelled and you can't slide.

Yes, the air dodge would be near-useless if they did that, but at least it's not as disruptive to the game as the conserving dodge is.

 

[WinterShorts]

No, you'd just have to make it so that no momentum is carried on from the air dodge. I don't think people would want it back as much if that happened.

Just make it so that if you air dodge into the ground, all your momentum is cancelled and you can't slide.

Yes, the air dodge would be near-useless if they did that, but at least it's not as disruptive to the game as the conserving dodge is.

get rid of the momentum, got it.

 

[Quillion]

Geez, why do people hate the conserving air dodge when clearly dedicated players of that style know how to punish it?

 

[Ganreizu]

Too bad it allowed for glitched movements...

A smashboards member that thinks wavedashing is a glitch? I thought we were past this scrub nonsense.

Geez, why do people hate the conserving air dodge when clearly dedicated players of that style know how to punish it?

If it's "easily" punished, why wouldn't someone hate it? Naturally conserving it to be less predictable would be best but if it's being punished either way i guess it wouldn't matter. It's the same thing with melee air dodge, it's better to be less predictable but you're probably going to be punished either way so it doesn't matter.

 

[Quillion]

A smashboards member that thinks wavedashing is a glitch? I thought we were past this scrub nonsense.

Bug or not, it still could be removed if the directional AD comes back.

 

[Ganreizu]

Bug or not, it still could be removed if the directional AD comes back.

I never argued that it couldn't be removed, since it can.

 

[Raijinken]

Airdodging is fine. There is no reason for it not to be abusable in midair, especially with how many characters have short endlag spammable midairs and the mobility to back it up. Removing multidodge would only make those characters stronger.

Returning the dodge limit would be like adding a limit to one dodge per ground time, requiring a jump to refresh. It's illogical.

 

[warriorman222]

Give a 10-20 frame cooldown between uses. FIX'D

 

[AugsEU]

I'm not saying that I want Melee air-dodge back due to Wavedashing, but I liked that they were vulnerable after they used it.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

So what from what I'm seeing you guys like using 1 air dodge then getting juggled in the air endlessly after that and getting killed for free? Nice

 

[warriorman222]

So what from what I'm seeing you guys like using 1 air dodge then getting juggled in the air endlessly after that and getting killed for free? Nice

Not me. But i don;t like spam of anything. A small frame cooldown prevents spamming while retaining it's use. Stop interpreting the words of one as the thought of all. Sorry, but i really h8 that m8.

 

[Cherubas]

I don't think the airdodge in this game is all that different from a roll in this game. Timed properly you can use it to dodge an attack. Timed properly you can attack a vulnerable enemy after you bait their airdodge. The landing lag is pretty substantial, and an airdodging character can't grab the ledge at the same time, so overall I think it works as good as it needs to. I'd take it over Melee's version at least.

 

[Lichi]

A smashboards member that thinks wavedashing is a glitch? I thought we were past this scrub nonsense.

I know the sliding itself is intentional, but how it is utilized in competitive gameplay was not. Poor choice of words by me.

 

[Quillion]

I know the sliding itself is intentional, but how it is utilized in competitive gameplay was not. Poor choice of words by me.

Semi-intentional. It meant that they discovered it but they left it in anyway.

 

[Lord P Wallington]

I miss the old airdodge. Airdodging now just makes it way too hard to dodge combos.

 

[Quillion]

I miss the old airdodge. Airdodging now just makes it way too hard to dodge combos.

*too easy

But what do you think about airdodge baiting, especially since you can't AD out of hitstun anymore?

 

[Lord P Wallington]

*too easy

But what do you think about airdodge baiting, especially since you can't AD out of hitstun anymore?

Meant to say easy. They are more punishable now, but not punishable enough imo. You should be able to punish them somehow when they're still in the air.

 

[Ganreizu]

I know the sliding itself is intentional, but how it is utilized in competitive gameplay was not. Poor choice of words by me.

Exploit, not glitch.

 

[Vanillascout]

imo airdodges should be like Fox/Falco's shine (sideB).
- Can be used only once.
- Landing or getting hit allows you to use it again.

Edit: or just make it like melee, where you can't airdodge out of tumble (the falling animation after taking a hit).

Being limited to just 1 airdodge would make it a lot more valuable, while also allowing a lot more followups.

Rolls and airdodges both suffer from having too many iframes, with too little downtime inbetween if you spam them. Sure it's punishable behavior, but not nearly punishable enough.

If you launch someone upward and want to followup, you're out of luck. If you jump directly at them and try to attack, they airdodge. If you shorthop to bait them into an airdodge and THEN go for the attack, they... just airdodge again anyway, and you'll miss unless you timed your attack perfectly for those few frames of downtime.

 

[D-idara]

The air-dodging, though changed up a bit from Brawl, is still way too easily spammed and rewarding. Most people I play online do nothing but air dodge all the way through the air, and although you can't immediately cancel hitstun, you can still air-dodge pretty dang fast out of a hit and attack immediately.
I really wish they had brought back the air-dodging that was in Melee, because the style of air-dodging that we have now just adds too much defensive-rewarding play to an already defense-heavy game. At least in Melee you had to actually be careful about air-dodging because you only had one and it put you in special fall. Now all you have to do is spam the button in the air and you're safe.

Yeah, until you land and get a ton of landing lag from airdodging. I've personally never had a problem.

 

[the8thark]

Easy solution is this.
Every air dodge you do in one jump adds to your landing lag. So the more you spam air dodge in one jump, the more you pay for it with a longer landing lag. I think that's fair.

 

[Lord P Wallington]

Yeah, until you land and get a ton of landing lag from airdodging. I've personally never had a problem.

You can cancel the lag. If you dodge someone's attack they will also get lag and not be able to properly punish.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not every character is supposed to be to easily deal with airdodges. I play Pit and Dark Pit, characters who can easily bait airdodges. But I'm also not good at actually getting back to the ground from a juggle, either. Regardless, I haven't seen a thing that makes it look like a big issue.

A smashboards member that thinks wavedashing is a glitch? I thought we were past this scrub nonsense.

Considering that "exploit" is a fictitious term, yes. People can legitimately call Wavedashing a glitch.

 

[Deadshot]

I didn't even have problems with it in brawl, baiting it out is pretty easy, especially if you pay attention to how your opponent is playing.

 

[Ganreizu]

Considering that "exploit" is a fictitious term, yes.

Wow. No.

 

[Metaler]

I don't think it's a huge problem. Sure, you can spam it, but the landing lag when using it close to the ground makes it easily punishable. Besides, it's still a good idea to time your dodges carefully. I feel like there are a few frames after air dodging that can easily be punished.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wow. No.

Sure is. Not recognized by any dictionary.

 

[Lord P Wallington]

Sure is. Not recognized by any dictionary.

Exploit is definitely in several dictionaries, man.

 

[Spirst]

Sure is. Not recognized by any dictionary.

What? Yeah it is.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/exploit

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=exploit

At least do a quick search before making a statement like that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Exploit is definitely in several dictionaries, man.

What? Yeah it is.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/exploit

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=exploit

At least do a quick search before making a statement like that.

Wrong. "To make use of" isn't the definition I'm talking about. I'm talking about "To make use of what's totally not glitch (IMO)."

 

[Lord P Wallington]

Wrong. "To make use of" isn't the definition I'm talking about. I'm talking about "To make use of what's totally not glitch (IMO)."

Exploit is a verb. You are EXPLOITING a bug.