You know what is really sweet?

[King Malice]

I hate Marth. I can never do anything to beat a marth. Sure, I can combo and mindgame him, but once I avoid the first ANYTHING, he swings another something at me before I have time to get to him. How do you get in Marth's reach without EPICALLY failing? (include what stages to pick, and NOT pick... and why.)

If you do help, thanks.

If you don't. I hate you.

 

[Dogysamich]

Well, i dont know the specifics of Mario vs Marth, but im pretty sure it's about the same as Doc.

But basically, you have to wait around and make him miss. By wait around, i dont mean camp your shield or stand still, but you have to generally move away and try to catch him after missing something.

A short f.air, f.tilting your fireballs, missed grab; something.

It's hard because there is a range where marth can hit you and you cant do anything (what i call, the danger range). Most people think that beating marth is staying on the inside of that range; but that's not it.

You have to be active once you get in, or you have to be moving away; because marth grabs are kinda scary.

_____

In short, i'm saying you basically want to try to make him give up his range by swinging "wildly". You have to be kind of patient, because again; you have the shorter range (i honestly dunno if mario's f.smash compete's with the range of marth's f.smash, but im assuming it doesnt)

 

[maelstrom218]

DogySamich has it right. Basically, the thing with a Marth matchup is that you have to actively avoid Marth at all times, and poke at his defenses/bait him the whole while, waiting for an opening.

Generally, there are a few rules when you're playing against Marth:

1) Learn tipper range: if you're not familiar with his range, you lose, straight up. Staying just outside tipper range helps you avoid hits, but also positions yourself to take advantage of lag as quickly as possible.

2) Learn to DI: DI'ing is critical in this matchup. DI behind Marth to avoid consecutive u-tilts, DI away from f-airs to avoid f-air juggling, learn to DI away/against Marth's f-throw to avoid tipper f-smashes, etc.

3) Don't try to combo: you can't combo Marth. If you can, the Marth you're playing is terrible. He can f-air out of anything you dish out (especially your u-air/u-tilt combos). Rely on quick 2-3 hit chains--you want reliable (albeit low output) damage. Stuff like d-throw -> sex kick, jab -> d-smash, that kind of stuff.

4) Learn to edgetech: it makes his d-tilt/f-smash much less intimidating.

With respect to stage choice--obviously, smaller stages are detrimental to you since smaller, platformed stages tend to be Marth-centric (i.e. Yoshi's Story). Larger stages are better, mostly because you have more room to maneuver around the sword. Pokemon Stadium and DL64 (despite that inability to KO there) are ideal; FD is alright (no platforms = less maneuverability, but at least you have lots of space), and everything else is mediocre.

As for getting inside tipper range, I'm going to quote myself from a previous post, because it seems as if the vs. Marth matchup gets asked all the time:

When Marth's extremely aggressive, there's really not that much you can do about it. Fireball deterrence is pretty useless and puts you in a dangerous spot unless he's on the other side of the stage. Mario doesn't have anything that can even remotely compete with Marth's massive disjointed hitbox. You basically HAVE to run.

When you're not running away directly, you're trying to get inside. You do that by dashdancing to bait certain laggier attacks (u-tilt sort of, f-smash, f-tilt) and taking advantage of that said attack with a quick shffl'd aerial. Or you can wavedashing back, or wavedash out-of-shield (great for shifting immediately from defense to offense, especially when you wavedash out-of-shield into a grab or d-smash). Spot-dodging is also handy if you can predict a Marth's grabs or f-smash. Selectively choosing when to roll can also throw off a Marth's rhythm, provided that you're smart about it.

You should try to mix in some offensive moves now and then, just to throw Marth off. . .obviously not a lot of it (because Mario is at a horrible disadvantage when it comes to offense), but it really is necessary in getting an idea of Marth's patterns. Wavedash forward + f-tilt, or wavejabbing, or limited shffl'd sex kicks and b-airs are good for this kind of stuff.

During this whole run-away and evasive maneuvering routine, the one thing you need to do is to look very carefully at how Marth responds to your evasiveness (or limited aggressive pokes). No Marth is 100% invulnerable; no matter how carefully the Marth sets up his offense, there WILL be holes. It's just your job to see where they are.

Standard openings are after Marth's f-smash (your biggest opportunity; definitely learn to get a feel as to when a Marth will pull out a f-smash), right in between his double-f-airs-in-one-short-hop (shielding the first one, the jump-cancelling into an u-air right before the second f-air comes out), during his f-airs (you can crouch-cancel the non-sweetspotted ones pretty well at low %s into a d-smash), missed grabs (try to see a grab pattern), etc.

Other Marth advice is to edgeguard aggressively (keep him off the stage no matter what), learn his sword range (the more familiar you are with it, the more formidable an evasive game you have), learn to DI properly (away from f-airs, behind his u-tilts, against f-smash, etc.) and avoid combo'ing (it doesn't work on Marth, ever).

The last part bears a bit of repeating, mostly because as Mario, you'll be tempted to go into u-airs and u-tilts and your standard bread-and-butter. Try combo'ing the Marth; if he lets you do it, great. Except, Marth can break out of any combo Mario dishes out with his f-air, so you're much better off playing it safe with limited 2-3 hit combos, and backing off.

 

[Dogysamich]

i wouldnt go as far as to say you cant combo marth.

I would easily say it's dangerous as hell, though. Because anything you miss can get f.air'd (like mael said).

And the main problem is, they can turn your missed attack into a f.air into a grab or into their own combo.

 

[Eggz]

i wouldnt go as far as to say you cant combo marth.

I would.

Unless your **** is frame perfect, your **** is wizeak

 

[iMichael]

From what I know on Marths...Don't pick Marths Story...I mean Yoshi's Story..pfft talk about epic fails.

Edit: Maelstrom already stated this =*(....he basically said everything you needed to know =D

 

[Matador]

*Comes from melee discussion thread on techskill vs mindgames*
This fight is all about mindgames. Bait him into an opening and abuse it. Play as friggin cheap as you can; the fact that he's using marth gives you this privilege.

 

[King Malice]

Thanks for the input, I honestly thought all I would get were "HEY DOUCHEBAG, GTFO MY INTERNETS".

But anyway, I would have to be honest and say I try to combo marth a lot. Usually, it sucks, but every now and then I embarrass him by comboing him. I guess I will stop trying to combo him. What am I supposed to do now? Rely on the DSmash to victory?

I need a way to actually kill him rather than just get into the range.

(BTW, thanks again Maelstrom for reminding me how cool Mario can be) I learned Marth's range ever since I had to deal with two of them twice in a row in a tourney.

 

[The Kraken]

You can sometimes use Mario's Cape to make marth turn around, and you can get a few hits on him. I use the cape ALOT when playing with Mario, just cause it's such a great move to counter or destroy what the opponent is intending to do.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

DogySamich has it right. Basically, the thing with a Marth matchup is that you have to actively avoid Marth at all times, and poke at his defenses/bait him the whole while, waiting for an opening.

Generally, there are a few rules when you're playing against Marth:

1) Learn tipper range: if you're not familiar with his range, you lose, straight up. Staying just outside tipper range helps you avoid hits, but also positions yourself to take advantage of lag as quickly as possible.

2) Learn to DI: DI'ing is critical in this matchup. DI behind Marth to avoid consecutive u-tilts, DI away from f-airs to avoid f-air juggling, learn to DI away/against Marth's f-throw to avoid tipper f-smashes, etc.

3) Don't try to combo: you can't combo Marth. If you can, the Marth you're playing is terrible. He can f-air out of anything you dish out (especially your u-air/u-tilt combos). Rely on quick 2-3 hit chains--you want reliable (albeit low output) damage. Stuff like d-throw -> sex kick, jab -> d-smash, that kind of stuff.

4) Learn to edgetech: it makes his d-tilt/f-smash much less intimidating.

With respect to stage choice--obviously, smaller stages are detrimental to you since smaller, platformed stages tend to be Marth-centric (i.e. Yoshi's Story). Larger stages are better, mostly because you have more room to maneuver around the sword. Pokemon Stadium and DL64 (despite that inability to KO there) are ideal; FD is alright (no platforms = less maneuverability, but at least you have lots of space), and everything else is mediocre.

As for getting inside tipper range, I'm going to quote myself from a previous post, because it seems as if the vs. Marth matchup gets asked all the time:

What a coinceidence, i've been seeking help on this match up as well. Many thanks.

Also Maelstrom, it's been a while. Where have you been buddy? =D

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

Act on marths mistakes but i am sure someone said this already. Also use and develop mindgames, look at vids on how marth fights and learn his common and uncommon strategies. Does your opponent use that "same old trick" that you always succumb to?

 

[maelstrom218]

Also Maelstrom, it's been a while. Where have you been buddy? =D

Well, I retired from competitive Smash a while back. . .that's why I've been AWOL for a bit. Although, it seems like I'm getting back into it again, which is something I really shouldn't be doing.

King Malice, if you can combo the Marth you're playing against, by all means, do so. It's just that you should keep in mind (if you one day happen to face some uber-level Marth) that you can't juggle him since he can always f-air out of it. All the Marth has to do is DI away from Mario and properly time a f-air, and the combo's broken. It's basically a free alpha counter; no meter required. (random old-school reference)

As far as straight-out KO'ing Marth, that's. . .something of a hassle. When I play against Marths, I usually get my KOs from d-smash/sex kick, and edgeguarding. . .that's about it.

In terms of edgeguarding Marth, don't be afraid to edgeguard him because of the sword. Marth can f-air/side-b on the way back to deter you, and his up-b can be annoying to edgeguard, but this doesn't mean that his recovery is safe. If you can nail him with a fireball right as he starts his double jump, it'll neutralize it and stunt his recovery (fireball spike Cape style).

You can also try to fastfall a b-air into him, either away or into the stage (for a stage spike if he bounces off the wall), but be wary if he has good teching skills. You can also cape his up-b--just stand a bit away from the edge to cape the tip of the sword, and you'll be able to cape him. Usually, when a Marth up-b's, you'll notice that Marth's body remains below the edge, but his disjointed hitbox (sword) pops up above the edge--and that's what you should be caping.

Also--and Eggz, I need your help on this one--I'm not sure if the light-shield -> edgehog works on Marth with Mario. Basically, you're suppose to roll at the edge of the stage (so you're as close as possible) and light shield (press Z during the roll to make sure you're using the lightest shield possible) while angling the shield diagonally downwards towards the edge of the stage.

When Marth up-b's, it's *supposed* to knock you down into grabbing the edge--seeing this, the Marth can't sweetspot (because he'll be automatically edgehogged) so he can only recover onto the stage, where you can take advantage of the lag. It's not as effective with Mario as it is with Falcon, because it's harder for Mario to take advantage of the lag (possibly an edge-dashed grab into b-throw, or ledgehopped sex kick, but that's about it), but it's just another edgeguarding tactic to consider--provided it works with Mario, I can't remember.

 

[Eggz]

Also--and Eggz, I need your help on this one--I'm not sure if the light-shield -> edgehog works on Marth with Mario. Basically, you're suppose to roll at the edge of the stage (so you're as close as possible) and light shield (press Z during the roll to make sure you're using the lightest shield possible) while angling the shield diagonally downwards towards the edge of the stage.

I was practicing my lightshield edgehogs earlier this week. I used to be able to do it perfectly without Z every time, but my tech skill has waned in the last few months. =/

But yeah, it works. =D

 

[King Malice]

I have no problem edgehogging Marth. That is actually the easiest thing to do against a Marth in my opinion.

Other than that, I will try more DSmash whoring and I will throw a rogue sex kick in when the time seems appropiate.


Just to get this straight, I should look for fuxed up FTilts and grabs as an opening? Because going after a missed FSmash is a terrible.. terrible terrible idea indeed.

 

[shizzlee]

I don't know if I should be giving advice or anything, but when I ever end up fighting Marth, I usually try to rush him for a little bit then move away. To be honest, I guess I learned the distance of his attacks over the years, but fighting Marth seems kind of easy to me for some reason.

 

[-PM-]

You can sometimes use Mario's Cape to make marth turn around, and you can get a few hits on him. I use the cape ALOT when playing with Mario, just cause it's such a great move to counter or destroy what the opponent is intending to do.

saddest thing iv ever heard

ever
ever
ever

god

 

[iMichael]

You can sometimes use Mario's Cape to make marth turn around, and you can get a few hits on him. I use the cape ALOT when playing with Mario, just cause it's such a great move to counter or destroy what the opponent is intending to do.

@_@ whoa.....

 

[Super Mari0]

you remind me of myself... only i had a vid... where i ****ing got tipped with 30% and died right after

**** MARTH!!! but you can go with Falco against him then your quite fine...

and stick with the help you got just now... im gonna use it too
DONT PICK POKEMON STADIUM!!!

Final Destination is the best for evading and fireball spamming and also good for mindgames AND combos