Yoshi's Egg Roll

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I've been wondering this for a while, but why is Yoshi's side special considered to be such garbage? I use it situationally and I find it really useful for mixing up recovery and just mixing up the neutral game as well.

I just want to hear other fellow Yoshi mains' thoughts on this move.

 

[DD151]

Its hitbox is horrible, it can be seen coming from a mile away because of long startup, it's easily punished on whiff, it doesn't help recovery unless you have no horizontal aerial momentum to begin with, and if you win neutral with it, what do you gain? You can't combo out of it because of the cooldown and you barely get any advantage in stage position.

I think some Yoshi mains will still advocate using it as a mix-up on occasion, but I personally think that Egg Roll is one of the moves that Yoshi should never use under any circumstance against a decent player - not even as a recovery mix-up.

 

[birthgirth]

I hate everything about this move. 99% of the time this move comes out is an accident for me. The only time I actually use it is against Ness. (For some reason Ness vs Yoshi is kind of a popular matchup). I personally hate the Ness matchup because there's not a lot of combos on Yoshi and Ness can prevent Yoshi from getting combos with fairs and dash attack which can't really be parried. So it's a bunch of tiny hits until you're at kill percent. ANYWAY!

PK thunder breaks DJ Armor at 121% or something so while you're recovering they can hit you with it and make you fall to your death. However now every time they go for it I just side-b and it breaks the egg but gives some upward trajectory and always throws me towards the stage. Although if close enough to the stage it's still better to air-dodge it and punish their thunder lag.

 

[Nuttre]

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Its hitbox is horrible, it can be seen coming from a mile away because of long startup, it's easily punished on whiff, it doesn't help recovery unless you have no horizontal aerial momentum to begin with, and if you win neutral with it, what do you gain? You can't combo out of it because of the cooldown and you barely get any advantage in stage position.

I think some Yoshi mains will still advocate using it as a mix-up on occasion, but I personally think that Egg Roll is one of the moves that Yoshi should never use under any circumstance against a decent player - not even as a recovery mix-up.

One of the main reasons I use it in neutral is to get my opponent away from me; a lot of times they won't expect it and I can smash into them and keep whizzing past.

 

[DD151]

I hate everything about this move. 99% of the time this move comes out is an accident for me. The only time I actually use it is against Ness. (For some reason Ness vs Yoshi is kind of a popular matchup). I personally hate the Ness matchup because there's not a lot of combos on Yoshi and Ness can prevent Yoshi from getting combos with fairs and dash attack which can't really be parried. So it's a bunch of tiny hits until you're at kill percent. ANYWAY!

PK thunder breaks DJ Armor at 121% or something so while you're recovering they can hit you with it and make you fall to your death. However now every time they go for it I just side-b and it breaks the egg but gives some upward trajectory and always throws me towards the stage. Although if close enough to the stage it's still better to air-dodge it and punish their thunder lag.

It's 114%. Although if you're high enough above the stage, you should just take the hit because the attack will have hardly any residual knockback and you can just fall to the stage while Ness is in cooldown.

I find that I accidentally side-B a lot when I'm trying to do the running up-B edgehog, which is frustrating because it means that I'm guaranteed to drop an edgeguard.

One of the main reasons I use it in neutral is to get my opponent away from me; a lot of times they won't expect it and I can smash into them and keep whizzing past.

The hitbox thread doesn't even have frame data for side-B startup, but I bet it's something like 1/3 of a second. This is totally reactable by just jumping or shielding, and then your opponent can just chase after you for a free punish. It should especially not work if your opponent is in neutral, where he has all of his offensive and defensive options available. Like, I don't want to be badmouthing the quality of your opponents, but every time you side-B against them, they should be getting a free punish. The fact that they're not punishing you for it means that they're reinforcing your bad habit of using side-B in neutral.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

The hitbox thread doesn't even have frame data for side-B startup, but I bet it's something like 1/3 of a second. This is totally reactable by just jumping or shielding, and then your opponent can just chase after you for a free punish. It should especially not work if your opponent is in neutral, where he has all of his offensive and defensive options available. Like, I don't want to be badmouthing the quality of your opponents, but every time you side-B against them, they should be getting a free punish. The fact that they're not punishing you for it means that they're reinforcing your bad habit of using side-B in neutral.

I guess that the reason I use it is because I'm not really someone who likes to "go for the optimal strat," and instead prefer to just do my own thing and have fun with it. I wouldn't really consider it a bad habit, because I'm not one who likes to believe that there should be only one way to play.

 

[DD151]

I guess that the reason I use it is because I'm not really someone who likes to "go for the optimal strat," and instead prefer to just do my own thing and have fun with it. I wouldn't really consider it a bad habit, because I'm not one who likes to believe that there should be only one way to play.

There are no "optimal strats" in fighting games with a semblance of balance because everything is a mix-up; there are, however, plainly suboptimal strats. At any moment in neutral you can be trying to bait out your opponent and counterpoke with a variety of options, such as a tilt, DJC aerial, or dash grab. None of these are the "optimal strat," but some carry higher risk or reward. But if you were, for example, playing Ganondorf and evaluated your neutral options between SH aerial, DJ aerial, or waveland F-tilt, you're not also going to consider using U-tilt in neutral because you "prefer to just do your own thing and have fun with it." Don't let's pretend that bad decisions don't exist.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

There are no "optimal strats" in fighting games with a semblance of balance because everything is a mix-up; there are, however, plainly suboptimal strats. At any moment in neutral you can be trying to bait out your opponent and counterpoke with a variety of options, such as a tilt, DJC aerial, or dash grab. None of these are the "optimal strat," but some carry higher risk or reward. But if you were, for example, playing Ganondorf and evaluated your neutral options between SH aerial, DJ aerial, or waveland F-tilt, you're not also going to consider using U-tilt in neutral because you "prefer to just do your own thing and have fun with it." Don't let's pretend that bad decisions don't exist.

I understand that throwing out an up-tilt in neutral with Ganon is indeed a "bad choice" in competitive play, but I just don't think that Egg Roll has that same property since it actually has movement. It might not be amazing, but it's not like it's a "bad habit" though either.

Perhaps I worded the OP incorrectly; "staple" wasn't the correct word. I don't throw out egg rolls every few seconds, I only use them when I believe the situation would suit it.

 

[Dinowulf]

I'm really dumb with Frame data and have no idea how to capture it but when you're trying to recover you can fall straight down while in the Yoshi Egg Roll animation then continue to move when you're close enough to throw your opponent off. I don't think the Eggroll is that bad when you're trying to recover especially when you've lost your double jump and knocked back off the stage. it's either that or the Air dodge in quite honesty most opponents expect the Air Dodge.

 

[Sashimi]

Egg Roll is definitely punishable enough for it to be a bad habit. You are better off without it 99 times out of 100.

 

[DD151]

I understand that throwing out an up-tilt in neutral with Ganon is indeed a "bad choice" in competitive play, but I just don't think that Egg Roll has that same property since it actually has movement. It might not be amazing, but it's not like it's a "bad habit" though either.

Perhaps I worded the OP incorrectly; "staple" wasn't the correct word. I don't throw out egg rolls every few seconds, I only use them when I believe the situation would suit it.

And I'm saying that there are no situations that suit usage of Egg Roll. I wouldn't blame someone for using it as recovery in desperation (though even changing up the direction of the air dodge is a better mix-up), but there's no situation in neutral where it's better than even dash attack or wavedash to F-smash or D-smash. And dash attack is bad in neutral.

 

[Scootch]

I don't like this move because almost every attack can break it.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

After a lot more Melee, I hate this move, it's absolute garbage. I retract everything I've said about it.

 

[Scootch]

Yes, it definitely is GARBAGE!

 

[dahuterschuter]

Reverse-transcendent priority means it gets railed by any move.

However, I've actually found it comically useful for techchasing if you time it right. If your opponent rolls forwards or techs in place or gets stuck with normal get-up it'll simply hit them, and if they try to roll away it covers ground faster than any of Yoshi's other movement options and you can actually pop out of the egg and use a well spaced Smash or aerial as they get up. It's a goofy way to mix-up tech-chases that can actually pull off good combos.

 

[TacoLord9000]

At least it is better than Zelda's side-b.

 

[BanYoshi2015]

You can also use this move from the edge if you hold away from the stage then towards the stage. The egg will pop you up and over the stage and suddenly you're flying across the stage in an egg. Only could be used as a mix up but could be used as a mix up haha