Warning: This document may contain generalizations. Know that many statements must be taken with a grain of salt.
This thread was inspired by Defender’s thread, “Yoshi and an Aggressive Defense.” Though I believed that it was a great idea to keep Yoshi from being put on the defensive, I really didn’t know what “aggressive defense” was supposed to mean. So, in order to try to explain it, I created this thread, which will give you different options apart from shielding.
Now we all know that Yoshi has a crappy shield. It takes a bit longer to end, and although the inability to jump out of it isn’t really a constant problem, it limits Yoshi’s options. His laggy roll and out-of-shield grab don’t really help things. So what can keep Yoshi from getting into trouble with his shield?
To start, here’s a list of what Yoshi DOESN’T like. There are five basic scenarios that make Yoshi put himself in a defensive position:
1. The opponent is running toward you. Your first instinct may be to shield. Again, there are better options.
2. Against projectile spams. There are better things to do in that situation.
3. Yoshi fears a counterattack. This could be after one of his few attacks with cooldown lag, when the opponent has a chance to capitalize on his lag.
4. Opponents use a smash or other attack with windup lag. This is pretty much the opposite of #3.
5. The opponent is in Yoshi’s face. He’ll want to roll away, but it’s not always a valid option.
I’ll address these one by one.
1. Charging Opponents
So the other guy is just running toward you. It seems like a terrible situation… you don’t have time to throw an egg and you have nowhere else to go except off the stage. In a panic, you might think of using your shield. DON’T. Yoshi has so many options that he can use depending on who he’s facing and what the situation is. If the opponent is dashing, that tends to limit their options. Out of a dash they only have a few things they can do: usmash, dash attack, running grab, or jump to aerials (of which only fair and possibly nair or dair will be useful).
Ike, Dedede, Squirtle and Ness are some exceptions in which their disjointed usmashes can hit you from a good horizontal distance. If one of these characters decides to approach with a usmash, your best option may actually be to shield, because most of these have enough knockback to push you back while you’re still in your shield, and you can drop it from a safe distance. However, almost every other character will avoid this move as an approach, because in most cases, usmash won’t hit you unless it’s almost right on top of you.
Dash attacks are commonly dealt with by other characters with a shield-grab. Yoshi doesn’t have this luxury, so he’ll have to get creative. Depending on which character you’re facing, a dtilt or ftilt may stop their approach. However, if you’re facing an opponent with a disjointed dash attack or another high-priority attack, it may be wiser to attempt a pivot grab, or a grab whose lag is significantly reduced by quickly turning around and using it. To perform a pivot grab easily, press the control stick in the opposite direction to which you’re facing, press z (or whatever your grab button is) and jam the c-stick in the direction opposite to which you pressed the control stick. Done in quick succession, these buttons result in a grab whose lag is significantly reduced. If you miss the grab, you really don’t have any choice but to shield, which will likely end up with you getting punished for it. Another option is simply to spotdodge, because almost every dash attack will have ending lag that you can punish them for.
Aerials can be tricky to counter with Yoshi, since he doesn’t have that much range in front of him in the air. The shield can actually be beneficial in this case, because jab out of shield is a great punisher for laggy aerials. Other options include an angled-up ftilt or a usmash, but both of those usually don’t have a good chance of stopping opponents unless their aerials aren’t very rangy. On the plus side, usmash often has enough priority to cancel out an aerial, but this is situational at best. Most aerials should be reacted to on a case-by-case basis and can’t really be completely covered in blanket statement. Just use common sense!
Running grabs are, in most cases, the easiest to deal with. I don’t mean zairs like those of Samus and Link (which ultimately amount to just annoyances to Yoshi), but the opponent just running up to you and pressing z. There are only a few characters that will even attempt to do this, and those are the characters that have tether grabs: Link, Lucas, Olimar, Ivysaur, Samus, Toon Link, Yoshi, and Zamus. The problem with running grabs is that they tend to have massive amounts of both windup and cooldown lag. As such, the best way to deal with them is to spotdodge, then punish with a tilt, a jab, or a pivot grab of your own. The third option, if you can pull it off in time, is usually the best, as most characters will shield after their grabs in an attempt to keep themselves from being punished. (More on that in Section 3.)
2. Projectile Spams
This might just be another instinct thing, but whenever some characters start throwing projectiles out at other characters, they sometimes shield. Against most projectiles this is pretty much pointless, and it’s a practice that everyone should get out of the habit of doing. If you want to shield against one projectile, like a Samus charge shot, that’s fine. But come on, don’t go shielding Falco’s lasers because that won’t do anything. Your safest bet in projectile spamming situations is just to absorb as many projectiles as possible with your DJ jugg frames and approach the enemy.
3. Cooldown Lag
This is actually less of a problem for Yoshi than it is for most other characters. Few of his ground options have cooldown lag, the exceptions to which are his smashes and a standing or running grab. The grabs are easy to fix: just use pivots instead. Don’t bother with a standing grab when a pivot has less lag on both sides. Running grabs are a decent approach, but they should definitely be used with caution because if they whiff, you’re in big trouble.
Smashes are a bit more difficult to avoid use of. They’re some of Yoshi’s few KO moves, so when the opponent’s percentage is high, you’ll need them. Some Yoshi players barely use them, opting instead to play it safe and wait for a possible nair or uair kill. If you’re facing a grounded opponent, this is easier said than done. I would suggest simply waiting for them to use a laggy attack of their own before you attempt to do the same, leading us to…
4. Windup Lag
Say Dedede or Ike has just started their fsmash. You aren’t close enough for a jab or a tilt, and you can’t take the hit. That doesn’t mean you should automatically use your shield. If you don’t have time to do anything else, it’s probably your only option, but if you’re up against an attack with punishable windup, do your best to punish it. Pivot grabs usually won’t work here, as they take a split-second to set up, and that’s a split-second you usually won’t have. Your best punishing option is a jab or tilt. Of course, you may not always have time to use them. But if you can, do it. Punishment is key in Yoshi’s metagame and this particular situation shouldn’t be any different.
5. Shield Pressure
Here’s where the one benefit of Yoshi’s shield comes into play: it doesn’t decrease in size when it’s used. This means that he can hold his shield a lot longer than other characters without fear of being shieldstabbed… in other words, it will always cover his entire body, so opponents be unable to hit the part of his body that the shield doesn’t cover. Unfortunately, Yoshi’s out-of-shield game is so crappy that it’s difficult to counterattack, not to mention that the opponent will probably just grab him out of the shield anyway.
Your best bet when the opponent is right up in your face and spamming jabs is just not to shield. Since most jabs are multi-hit attacks, take the damage from the first hit and do your best to DI away. But in almost every case, you’ll take a lot more damage from staying shielded than you will from getting jabbed. And, of course, you could try some jabbing of your own to cancel out theirs.
That about wraps it up. There aren’t many other situations in which you’ll have to shield, and there are almost always better options. So don’t fall prey do instinct: keep a cool head, react in an offensive way, and most importantly, don’t get hit.
- Kiwi
This thread was inspired by Defender’s thread, “Yoshi and an Aggressive Defense.” Though I believed that it was a great idea to keep Yoshi from being put on the defensive, I really didn’t know what “aggressive defense” was supposed to mean. So, in order to try to explain it, I created this thread, which will give you different options apart from shielding.
Now we all know that Yoshi has a crappy shield. It takes a bit longer to end, and although the inability to jump out of it isn’t really a constant problem, it limits Yoshi’s options. His laggy roll and out-of-shield grab don’t really help things. So what can keep Yoshi from getting into trouble with his shield?
To start, here’s a list of what Yoshi DOESN’T like. There are five basic scenarios that make Yoshi put himself in a defensive position:
1. The opponent is running toward you. Your first instinct may be to shield. Again, there are better options.
2. Against projectile spams. There are better things to do in that situation.
3. Yoshi fears a counterattack. This could be after one of his few attacks with cooldown lag, when the opponent has a chance to capitalize on his lag.
4. Opponents use a smash or other attack with windup lag. This is pretty much the opposite of #3.
5. The opponent is in Yoshi’s face. He’ll want to roll away, but it’s not always a valid option.
I’ll address these one by one.
1. Charging Opponents
So the other guy is just running toward you. It seems like a terrible situation… you don’t have time to throw an egg and you have nowhere else to go except off the stage. In a panic, you might think of using your shield. DON’T. Yoshi has so many options that he can use depending on who he’s facing and what the situation is. If the opponent is dashing, that tends to limit their options. Out of a dash they only have a few things they can do: usmash, dash attack, running grab, or jump to aerials (of which only fair and possibly nair or dair will be useful).
Ike, Dedede, Squirtle and Ness are some exceptions in which their disjointed usmashes can hit you from a good horizontal distance. If one of these characters decides to approach with a usmash, your best option may actually be to shield, because most of these have enough knockback to push you back while you’re still in your shield, and you can drop it from a safe distance. However, almost every other character will avoid this move as an approach, because in most cases, usmash won’t hit you unless it’s almost right on top of you.
Dash attacks are commonly dealt with by other characters with a shield-grab. Yoshi doesn’t have this luxury, so he’ll have to get creative. Depending on which character you’re facing, a dtilt or ftilt may stop their approach. However, if you’re facing an opponent with a disjointed dash attack or another high-priority attack, it may be wiser to attempt a pivot grab, or a grab whose lag is significantly reduced by quickly turning around and using it. To perform a pivot grab easily, press the control stick in the opposite direction to which you’re facing, press z (or whatever your grab button is) and jam the c-stick in the direction opposite to which you pressed the control stick. Done in quick succession, these buttons result in a grab whose lag is significantly reduced. If you miss the grab, you really don’t have any choice but to shield, which will likely end up with you getting punished for it. Another option is simply to spotdodge, because almost every dash attack will have ending lag that you can punish them for.
Aerials can be tricky to counter with Yoshi, since he doesn’t have that much range in front of him in the air. The shield can actually be beneficial in this case, because jab out of shield is a great punisher for laggy aerials. Other options include an angled-up ftilt or a usmash, but both of those usually don’t have a good chance of stopping opponents unless their aerials aren’t very rangy. On the plus side, usmash often has enough priority to cancel out an aerial, but this is situational at best. Most aerials should be reacted to on a case-by-case basis and can’t really be completely covered in blanket statement. Just use common sense!
Running grabs are, in most cases, the easiest to deal with. I don’t mean zairs like those of Samus and Link (which ultimately amount to just annoyances to Yoshi), but the opponent just running up to you and pressing z. There are only a few characters that will even attempt to do this, and those are the characters that have tether grabs: Link, Lucas, Olimar, Ivysaur, Samus, Toon Link, Yoshi, and Zamus. The problem with running grabs is that they tend to have massive amounts of both windup and cooldown lag. As such, the best way to deal with them is to spotdodge, then punish with a tilt, a jab, or a pivot grab of your own. The third option, if you can pull it off in time, is usually the best, as most characters will shield after their grabs in an attempt to keep themselves from being punished. (More on that in Section 3.)
2. Projectile Spams
This might just be another instinct thing, but whenever some characters start throwing projectiles out at other characters, they sometimes shield. Against most projectiles this is pretty much pointless, and it’s a practice that everyone should get out of the habit of doing. If you want to shield against one projectile, like a Samus charge shot, that’s fine. But come on, don’t go shielding Falco’s lasers because that won’t do anything. Your safest bet in projectile spamming situations is just to absorb as many projectiles as possible with your DJ jugg frames and approach the enemy.
3. Cooldown Lag
This is actually less of a problem for Yoshi than it is for most other characters. Few of his ground options have cooldown lag, the exceptions to which are his smashes and a standing or running grab. The grabs are easy to fix: just use pivots instead. Don’t bother with a standing grab when a pivot has less lag on both sides. Running grabs are a decent approach, but they should definitely be used with caution because if they whiff, you’re in big trouble.
Smashes are a bit more difficult to avoid use of. They’re some of Yoshi’s few KO moves, so when the opponent’s percentage is high, you’ll need them. Some Yoshi players barely use them, opting instead to play it safe and wait for a possible nair or uair kill. If you’re facing a grounded opponent, this is easier said than done. I would suggest simply waiting for them to use a laggy attack of their own before you attempt to do the same, leading us to…
4. Windup Lag
Say Dedede or Ike has just started their fsmash. You aren’t close enough for a jab or a tilt, and you can’t take the hit. That doesn’t mean you should automatically use your shield. If you don’t have time to do anything else, it’s probably your only option, but if you’re up against an attack with punishable windup, do your best to punish it. Pivot grabs usually won’t work here, as they take a split-second to set up, and that’s a split-second you usually won’t have. Your best punishing option is a jab or tilt. Of course, you may not always have time to use them. But if you can, do it. Punishment is key in Yoshi’s metagame and this particular situation shouldn’t be any different.
5. Shield Pressure
Here’s where the one benefit of Yoshi’s shield comes into play: it doesn’t decrease in size when it’s used. This means that he can hold his shield a lot longer than other characters without fear of being shieldstabbed… in other words, it will always cover his entire body, so opponents be unable to hit the part of his body that the shield doesn’t cover. Unfortunately, Yoshi’s out-of-shield game is so crappy that it’s difficult to counterattack, not to mention that the opponent will probably just grab him out of the shield anyway.
Your best bet when the opponent is right up in your face and spamming jabs is just not to shield. Since most jabs are multi-hit attacks, take the damage from the first hit and do your best to DI away. But in almost every case, you’ll take a lot more damage from staying shielded than you will from getting jabbed. And, of course, you could try some jabbing of your own to cancel out theirs.
That about wraps it up. There aren’t many other situations in which you’ll have to shield, and there are almost always better options. So don’t fall prey do instinct: keep a cool head, react in an offensive way, and most importantly, don’t get hit.
- Kiwi
