Yoshi vs. Marth Videos

[Opfer]

So I finally got to record some videos of me (Yoshi) playing my brother (Marth). Here we go:

27.2.2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StOJUO94z0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trZFph09M4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSNoTM3k5XU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su61q2mGt9Q

25.2.2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8qyxa3158w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAPffhzco3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBgGSQ6HBpo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAw7ip1wAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dAy1yS83mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1vfopYNWSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j0Os1qZ_0M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwbW0Dxz7c

I know that's quite a bunch, just start from the top if you don't feel like watching them all.

Now, I've never been to any tournament, since the smash scene isn't that great over here. Most of the time, I've just played my brother and my cousins, so we don't really have any way to tell how good we are on a tournament scale.

Which is why I'd really appreciate some critique (feel free to comment on the Marth as well, he'd be happy about some feedback). Feel free to post your honest opinion, if we're horrible, tell us, we'll be fine.

Thanks in advance
Opfer

 

[Eltrotraw]

I haven't watched them all, but I'm noticing a few consistent errors from both of you after watching the first two...

Opfer as Yoshi:
-Marth's range is like one of the best in the game. Don't try to beat it all the time.
You're letting him control you too well. From my experience in the matchup, you have to play a little defensively in order to get hits into Marth. I usually prefer faking him out then attacking.

-Random shieldgrabs?
Now I know I'm not a big fan of Yoshi's grab, but I'm not completely sure if Yoshi's shieldgrab can safely get Marth out of any of his attacks. I noticed that you tried to do this mostly out of his aerial attacks, most of which happened to be fair. Why?
Generally, I prefer using Yoshi's dashgrab anyway. Nowadays I do it out of a dashdance to handle the strange positioning of the hitbox.
If you want to dashdance into your dashgrab, don't do just dashgrabs out of your dashdance. Do some other things to keep him guessing, like say, dash attacks, djc nairs or whatnot.

-Your edgeguard
Marth can actually go through most of Yoshi's edgeguard attempts with some well-timed forward+Bs... at least the ones I'm playing now. My preferred method to go by this is tossing eggs at him. When he gets popped up by the egg and close enough to the stage, he's stunned long enough for you to jump off, use an attack(usually nair/fair), and get back on the stage.

-Some of your edgehogs
You have the instant edgehog thing down, but I always thought the best way to go by a safe edgehog is rolling. I saw a few cases where you did a "get-up edge attack" from the edge and ended up letting Stalky get back on.



Stalky as Marth
-Second jump first while recovering?
I notice this is a common thing I'm seeing with most Marth players, but as I see it, saving your second jump when you're closer to the edge is more beneficial. Case in point: End of match 10. It was even, though Stalkhy was launched off... if he had saved his second jump, an up+b could have brought him on the ledge, or he could have second jumped+nair to get you off the ledge, etc...
The big reason for this is to prevent being edgehogged or always landing on the stage with your up+B. Marth's up+B has a lot of landing lag, not good for recovering.

-Too much fsmash spam
I've been under this mentality too, it's probably the rush of wanting to get that kill. My stance on this is only fsmash when you have a good idea it'll hit or you won't get too badly punished for it. Don't toss too many fsmashes otherwise you'll get punished easily...
If he's at high percent, just throw him off and edgeguard. Speaking of which...

-Your edgeguarding
Yoshi's recovery is kinda predictable. You have to expect that airdodge as well since the bulk of Yoshi's recovery relies on that second jump. If you knock him far away where he can't land on the stage with the airdodge, then you've got him. You just have to predict the airdodge...
Try making some empty jumps sometime to keep him on his toes. My attack of choice to keep him away is nontipped fair, though bairs might work. I just prefer fair since it's really spammy.


I can try to give a more in-depth critique but right now I'm kinda in a hurry. Perhaps later...

 

[ELStalky]

Thanks for the feedback, actually i am aware of all 3 points, i watched pro videos and they all use the jump at the end but it seemed kind of pointless when i tried it some time ago since the trajectory of most yoshi attacks is so low, i could give it another try nevertheless though. I'm working on avoiding f-smashs, they take too long so i get d-smashed when he supershields, even though i noticed that myself i'm still using it too often.
Got to try empty jumps while edgeguarding...

 

[Opfer]

Hey thanks for taking the time to do the critique, I already feared there weren't any people left that still browse the Melee boards .

For the messed-up shieldgrabbing in some of the videos (grabbing too soon), I'm not trying to grab him out of his aerial there (is that even possible with Marth's insane range?), it's just that up until recently, I considered Yoshi's grab useless and didn't use it at all. So I just started doing it and simply don't have the timing down yet, hopefully that's gonna improve over time. Also gotta practice using the dashgrab...

I'll try to apply your advice on my game, thanks again for doing it (on the Marth side as well, of course).

The european release date for Brawl still isn't announced, so I guess I'll play some more Melee, I'll also upload more videos if I get something worthy.

 

[Psymon]

0When recovering, try not to use your double jump when you can safely land on the edge with the right DI - if you get hit, especially by high priority characters such as marth, after your double jump then you won't be able to get back to the stage (this is if they're edge guarding =P). Also, use yoshi's down-B in mid air when your opponent is stupid enough to stay directly below you =D. DJCs are a must as well, look into them =). Psy.

 

[Opfer]

Well, I used to to everything to preserve my second jump when recovering, but then I gave up on that playstyle because I was having a very hard time getting to the ground with a wavedashing/up-tilting Marth below me. The airdodge doesn't cover enough distance to dodge an up-tilt without being vulnerable after it. Using my double jump I find it easier to get to the ground. So how do you do it?

Down-B is cool, although I get knocked out of it by Marth's F-Air sometimes...

Didn't really get into DJC from the ground yet, all I'm currently doing is, for example when I get knocked upwards, DJCC through his follow-up aerial or ground attack. DJC from the ground is one of the next things on my list .

 

[Eltrotraw]

Argh, argh, argh... I was hoping to post this on the 5th but for some reason it didn't go through:

I specifically use Yoshi's down+b for two purposes - to catch the ledge or to interrupt a juggle. In fact, I use Marth's down+b for the same things usually.

I've seen from those videos that either Stalky knows when to expect your down+b, or that he can clearly hit you out of it.

Also about the empty jump issue - space yourself, considering you're Marth. He could still use an attack to get you out of it if you become too predictable with it(though I wouldn't recommend it on the Yoshi end, but if you become too predictable with the empty jumps, he could get you with a nair, dair or fair)

Some other things I noticed as well for Opfer...
-You like to go for the spike frequently.
I say confirm the kill rather than be flashy. I've died several times in the past trying to do a flashy stunt when I could have just done something tried and true. I believe I commented on one of your videos about this one.

-Try wavelanding.
Especially during recovery - you want to keep that second jump at all times at higher percents. Extra bonus for wavelanding on platforms, imo.

-Fastfall when you're being juggled.
I'm sure you realize this already, but having Marth below you is bad. It's probably the same case in Brawl, so rule of thumb is fastfall away from Marth. If you're being juggled, save your second jump - do not use it right away.
Since Marth's utilt requires him to be standing still to use it, trying to chase you with a utilt is kinda hard if he's trying to dash toward you. If you can mess up his timing with the utilt or any other juggles he's trying you can safely land on the ground. You want to save your second jump for that purpose... though I find it's a general rule of thumb for any character getting juggled.
Especially with utilt and uair, try DIing in the extreme direction away from him. Platform stages give you an extra advantage on this since you can waveland and hopefully use that extra momentum to get him off of your face. If Marth misses his swing, you can get back on the ground.

-Remember: Tapping the analog stick will "untumble" you.
What this means is, well...
You cannot airdodge while you're "tumbling" in the air - that is, spinning around in the air after being hit. I prefer tapping the direction toward the stage to break the tumble, then aim another airdodge toward the stage afterward.
I didn't see this happen, if it did, it happened so fast that I couldn't see it.

-Try tossing a few eggs to catch the ledge.
Yoshi can catch the ledge right after tossing an egg. If you aim it correctly, you can apply more pressure to Marth as he either has to block, swat or take the egg. Just toss a weak one so it drops down with you.
I have no idea if that one made sense or not.


As for Marth, a few tips from me playing too much Marth:
-uthrow is your friend at lower percents.
I'm not completely sure on this - I know this works in Marth mirrors, but uthrow should set up for utilt juggles and later some uairs to boot. As mentioned above, you do not want Marth below you, so uthrow is great for this.
I'm not sure if you knew about this, I just didn't see too much of it - especially on the platform stages. If you do try it, I would think tossing him up onto a platform on a platform stage would be safer, considering Yoshi's second jump and any possible followups with it.

-If he uses his second jump in the air, do not let him land.
This is also a general rule of thumb when juggling as well, but Marth especially since you can raise damage easily with juggling. Especially so with Yoshi, since without his second jump he's nearly helpless.

-Mix up your throws.
I should say, mix up usage of fthrow and dthrow. Remember that if your opponent DIs the wrong way, they can easily get punished by a fsmash(I'm assuming after seeing what the both of you are capable of that you know the intricacies of DI and such, especially the general rule of thumb against Marth: always DI away). In fact, those two throws can usually be followed up with a safe fsmash at around 20%+ or so.

-Space yourself.
In fact, I recommend using c-stick for most of your aerials. With c-stick, you can do retreating fairs and do dairs without fear of fastfalling to your death. Since you can do retreating fairs, you can actually jump backwards and hit him if he charges you, and if you whiff, you can deal with it most of the time(assuming you l-cancelled it) since it's one of Marth's safest attacks.
Other cases include pivoting fsmashes/grabs or jumpcancelled grabs...

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Be quick with Yoshi and jump egg-throw to avoid start-up lag

 

[Opfer]

I've seen from those videos that either Stalky knows when to expect your down+b, or that he can clearly hit you out of it.

Yeah, we've played each other for a long time, so I guess I'm kinda predictable on that one. Need to watch the videos some more and think of some mindgames...

-You like to go for the spike frequently.
I say confirm the kill rather than be flashy. I've died several times in the past trying to do a flashy stunt when I could have just done something tried and true. I believe I commented on one of your videos about this one.

Yeah, you're perfectly right, I need to get rid of that.

-Try wavelanding.
Especially during recovery - you want to keep that second jump at all times at higher percents. Extra bonus for wavelanding on platforms, imo.

-Remember: Tapping the analog stick will "untumble" you.
What this means is, well...
You cannot airdodge while you're "tumbling" in the air - that is, spinning around in the air after being hit. I prefer tapping the direction toward the stage to break the tumble, then aim another airdodge toward the stage afterward.
I didn't see this happen, if it did, it happened so fast that I couldn't see it.

-Fastfall when you're being juggled.
I'm sure you realize this already, but having Marth below you is bad. It's probably the same case in Brawl, so rule of thumb is fastfall away from Marth. If you're being juggled, save your second jump - do not use it right away.
Since Marth's utilt requires him to be standing still to use it, trying to chase you with a utilt is kinda hard if he's trying to dash toward you. If you can mess up his timing with the utilt or any other juggles he's trying you can safely land on the ground. You want to save your second jump for that purpose... though I find it's a general rule of thumb for any character getting juggled.
Especially with utilt and uair, try DIing in the extreme direction away from him. Platform stages give you an extra advantage on this since you can waveland and hopefully use that extra momentum to get him off of your face. If Marth misses his swing, you can get back on the ground.

Well, atm, I'm only using untumbling when knocked off the stage after using the second jump (so that I get the airdodge for recovery). Not that useful when Marth is waiting to F-Smash you at the ledge but it works sometimes. But actually using it on the stage in order to be able to waveland could prove to be really useful, I definitely gotta try that out. Combining it with fastfalling to escape juggles sounds really good, too. Being juggled has always been one of my major problems, so thanks for the tips.

Also, on a more general side, how would you estimate our skill at the game? Would we actually get somewhere if we went to a tourney or would we get our butts kicked really bad? Unfortunately there's no tourneys going on anywhere close to where we live, so we can't give it a try . Oh well, lets hope online is going to be good in Brawl .

 

[TheLake]

Good matches guys (:

 

[rmusgrave]

It depends on the skill level of the tournament. You guys are in Europe, so I would say that you would probably do ok in a tournament but not place high.

My biggest piece of advice after watching you 2 play is - play other people. You play exactly like brothers tend to play at smash, you know each other inside out and so mindgames and stuff get used and get overcome. What you don't realise until you face new players is that some tricks you use on your sibling will only work on them. Fairing well at a tournament is purely based on your ability to adapt, and that is based on experience against many different players.

As far as specific advice goes, I think it has mostly been answered already. I was impressed by the way you too play, it's very good for players that have little experience outside each other.

 

[AIDS]

im sorry, i would rather watch a female yoshi player, like Fumi =P lol for some strange reason

 

[TheLake]

Fumis so hott

 

[rmusgrave]

I don't know why people think Fumi is a hot Japanese chick. He's a fat Japanese guy.