Yoshi Stage Discussion: Week #3 - Dreamland 64

[Riddle]

Well the Yoshi boards are very inactive so I am going to try to improve them. Lets all get more active and make this a better place!

This is a thread in which we discuss specific stages and then I will put a summary in the OP along with who to counterpick that stage against and who to ban it against.

First Stage: Final Destination

In my opinion, FD isn't a terribly great yoshi stage. Though it's probably my personal favorite stage, just because it's so easy and fun to move around, I think that yoshi loves platforms, and just a flat space like this kinda makes stuff hard for him. I'm not saying he can't make use of the room he'll get here, just that he can make more use of platforms than just empty space.

I dunno about anyone else, but I kinda find it a bit more difficult to tech chase on FD, because I'm a big utilizer of the platforms when it comes to it, otherwise I don't think yoshi's really fast enough to punish well, without good guessing, which puts him at a disadvantage to faster chars that can react to techs.

Average cieling, and walls are good, cuz yoshi's got the pretty decent recovery, but can't make full use of it like in DL64.

As far as character specific matches for FD, I'd say pretty much anyone who is better with platforms than yoshi, you can take here, but there's normally better options. I'd say it's not smart to counter any char with this stage, and this might actually be better as your banned stage in some sets, in my opinion, more in a bit. Yoshi can just get outcamped, outcomboed, and just outclassed here, so my advice is to avoid it most of the times, unless you're uber technical, and insanely fast.

I'll try to drop my opinions on some of these.

Fox: No. Lasers and upsmash.

Falco: No. Lasers and running and no way to bait him to the edges.

Falcon: No. Random stomps and neutral airs.

Peach: Yes. Lip makes for super easy stage techs against downsmash and great stage to abuse her very diagonal KO moves.

Sheik: Maybe. Lots of open stage for chaingrabs, but her camping is reduced significantly due to stage size and the lip forces her recovery to be explicitly on point.

Marth: Yes yes yes. Nice open areas for DJC abuse against Marth's single swing aerials and his KO moves get more predictable as your percentage goes up.

Samus: No. CC and missiles and bombs and constant running and SWD and more running and more sh*t that explodes and maybe some more CC.

Jigglypuff: Nobody plays this character, but no anyway.

2nd stage: Pokemon Stadium

Opinion run #2.

Fox: No. Lasers and upsmash.

Falco: Yes, actually. The stage is very nicely set up to play against Falco; open area in the middle to perform powershielding wavedashes and low platforms at the ends to force tech rolls and bait for down tilt KOs. Falco's down air is still dangerous and his down air shine gay @$$ bullsh*t is still kinda gay near the platforms, but you can also retaliate with some nice DJCs, especially on the transformations. I see lots of Falcos that roll still (for some reason?), so you can use the edges to punish that very easily and without much preparation.

Falcon: Maybe. Actually, well, it's kinda tough. The stage's structure benefits Captain Falcon 100%, but Yoshi can fight back with some character advantages he maintains over Falcon. Just try not to CC too much and watch the tech rolls.

Peach: Yes. Pretty decent stage. You don't have to fear downsmash when she's above you as we all know that upsmash ties with Peach downsmash from below. Easy neutral air KOs and if you can spot some Yoshi bombs, the transformations give you different opportunities for them. My only gripe is that teching downsmash while recovering here is really really hard.

Sheik: Maybe. Transformations slightly hinder chaingrabs, but the terrain also promotes lots of her lagless aerials instead along with her angled needle camping. The impact on having platforms near the edge, however, is that if Yoshi can get launchers and DJCs happening, the platforms can lead into tech roll abuse or can even open up KO opportunities that are (conveniently) near the edge.

Marth: Mmmmm, maybe? I want to say yes, but the platforms mean you don't know exactly what swing is coming at you when he's under or around them. The big deal about Marth is that he commits to his swings, but when you don't know what's coming, he gets much more dangerous. I would recommend supershielding and using safe up tilt launchers off of Marth's laggy whiffs in order to play at your pace and not get wailed on.

Samus: No. CC and missiles and platforms = bad idea.

Jigglypuff: Yes. Lots of opportunities for some early KOs and her ability to knock you out of your jump is minimized by the short sides of the stage; that is to say, you won't really get KOd at a faster rate than you would on a larger stage while you can score earlier heavy hits on her. Upsmash is good as usual and surprise Yoshi Bombs are actually really good for once-in-a-while KOs on the transformations.

Next discussion is Dreamland 64

Discuss!

 

[yoshiiscool]

I think it's more probable that the yoshi boards are just inactive because nobody really cares anymore, not because we don't have good topics . Also I think it'd be better if you started off with your views on the stage first to lead into discussion, not just say "there... go ahead" but I'll bite cuz I'm bored.


In my opinion, FD isn't a terribly great yoshi stage. Though it's probably my personal favorite stage, just because it's so easy and fun to move around, I think that yoshi loves platforms, and just a flat space like this kinda makes stuff hard for him. I'm not saying he can't make use of the room he'll get here, just that he can make more use of platforms than just empty space.

I dunno about anyone else, but I kinda find it a bit more difficult to tech chase on FD, because I'm a big utilizer of the platforms when it comes to it, otherwise I don't think yoshi's really fast enough to punish well, without good guessing, which puts him at a disadvantage to faster chars that can react to techs.

Average cieling, and walls are good, cuz yoshi's got the pretty decent recovery, but can't make full use of it like in DL64.


As far as character specific matches for FD, I'd say pretty much anyone who is better with platforms than yoshi, you can take here, but there's normally better options. I'd say it's not smart to counter any char with this stage, and this might actually be better as your banned stage in some sets, in my opinion, more in a bit. Yoshi can just get outcamped, outcomboed, and just outclassed here, so my advice is to avoid it most of the times, unless you're uber technical, and insanely fast.

I'll go through some matches here and give my opinions on how they fair on FD:

Fox - FD isn't completely terrible to take a fox, you can get in some grab combos (if you're good) and juggling is decent here (better with platforms if you know what you're doing). I'd like to have a higher cieling, as yoshi's pretty susceptible to getting u-smashed or u-throw u-air. But unfortunately, it's hard to work with stuff here, he's got alot better movement than you here, and for fox it's very very easy to just intercept most, if not all of your approaches, since you can get kinda predictable with nothing to play around with in the air.

Falco - This matchup is probably average on FD, if you know your way around lasers, but if not, I highly suggest finding another place, because you will get camped. Otherwise, sort of treat it like a fox, in the way your combos and approaches will be, falco's tend to leave themselves a bit more open more often, and a stupid falco will be easy pickings on FD. Remember falco's combos also take a small hit when he can't use platforms to aid them, so that's sort of helpful, though it's still easy to combo yoshi, so don't think too much of it. It's all about whether you're comfortable or not in your combos, if you feel like you can get him off stage better without using platforms to help you, then I'd take a falco to FD.

Marth - Probably one of the most likely matches I'd take here, decent amount of room to egg him, with decent DI you're living to some pretty high damages, and he works quite a lot better with platforms than you can, with all that bull**** he does to people that fall on platforms. This is one of those matches you just attempt to keep control, and get him off the stage. I always have trouble edgeguarding marth though, so I dunno, good luck on this.

Sheik - Pretty easy just no here. Don't, really. She combos you to hell, chaingrabs you, and edgeguarding her is hard, so don't bother when you can make it alot easier on yourself.

Peach - Unfortunately, they'll live forever here, since yoshi really has no kill moves easy to hit on peach in this type of environment. A ground pound, when used from the ground, is yoshi's strongest vert KO move, and that's gonna be pretty hard to hit without the help of platform tech chasing, or some luck prolly . U-smash can help, but I don't think any smart peaches would fall for it much, most people I play learn that it's kinda suicidal to come down on good yoshi players.

Captain Falcon - He's too fast, too much room to run around, and you're too easy to combo here, I'd suggest not taking him here

Jigglypuff - This is a pretty difficult one to call, you would want some room, cuz I'd suggest egging and playing defensively in this match, but at the same time you don't want them to be living too long. Platform rests are a pain, but platforms also gives you more mobility, and and options. FD isn't bad, but I think there's better possibilities for this match-up

I guess that covers most of the more frequently played characers now, so unless anyone wants me to do other specifics I'll stop there.

 

[rustedfencepost]

platforms only get in the way of the rage

 

[Shiri]

I'll try to drop my opinions on some of these.

Fox: No. Lasers and upsmash.

Falco: No. Lasers and running and no way to bait him to the edges.

Falcon: No. Random stomps and neutral airs.

Peach: Yes. Lip makes for super easy stage techs against downsmash and great stage to abuse her very diagonal KO moves.

Sheik: Maybe. Lots of open stage for chaingrabs, but her camping is reduced significantly due to stage size and the lip forces her recovery to be explicitly on point.

Marth: Yes yes yes. Nice open areas for DJC abuse against Marth's single swing aerials and his KO moves get more predictable as your percentage goes up.

Samus: No. CC and missiles and bombs and constant running and SWD and more running and more sh*t that explodes and maybe some more CC.

Jigglypuff: Nobody plays this character, but no anyway.

 

[Mind Trick]

Agree with most of yoshiiscool's and shiri's views

Although I'd say Fox is pretty neutral on this stage as his platform game is amazing, falco is terribly annoying if it's a campy one, I'd rather take peach to a platform level like Yoshi's story, and jigglypuff is pretty ok here because of your eggs.

 

[Riddle]

Good input guys! I'll update it on the 8th, and start upa new discussion, but I would like to know what you guys should be the next one. I was thinking Dreamland 64 or Pokemon Stadium, but you guys can vote on what you want. Do you guys think there are any characters we should ban this against?

 

[Mind Trick]

Falco(n)...

 

[Shiri]

Mind Trick knows.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Agree with most of yoshiiscool's and shiri's views

Although I'd say Fox is pretty neutral on this stage as his platform game is amazing, falco is terribly annoying if it's a campy one, I'd rather take peach to a platform level like Yoshi's story, and jigglypuff is pretty ok here because of your eggs.

OMG Your sig is beast.

 

[YOSHIDO]

Hmm as far as FD goes I agree with everything that was pretty much said. When fighting marth I kina like having platforms to tech off of. But yeah Jiggs and other floaty characters. Or characters that have to work to get to you are good. No High tier shananagins though

 

[Riddle]

new stage up!

 

[Mind Trick]

Falcon: No
Doc: Maybe
Falco: No
Fox: No
Ganon: Yes
IC's: Yes
Jiggly: Yes
Marth: Maybe
Peach: Yes
Samus: No
Sheik: Maybe

 

[Shiri]

Opinion run #2.

Fox: No. Lasers and upsmash.

Falco: Yes, actually. The stage is very nicely set up to play against Falco; open area in the middle to perform powershielding wavedashes and low platforms at the ends to force tech rolls and bait for down tilt KOs. Falco's down air is still dangerous and his down air shine gay @$$ bullsh*t is still kinda gay near the platforms, but you can also retaliate with some nice DJCs, especially on the transformations. I see lots of Falcos that roll still (for some reason?), so you can use the edges to punish that very easily and without much preparation.

Falcon: Maybe. Actually, well, it's kinda tough. The stage's structure benefits Captain Falcon 100%, but Yoshi can fight back with some character advantages he maintains over Falcon. Just try not to CC too much and watch the tech rolls.

Peach: Yes. Pretty decent stage. You don't have to fear downsmash when she's above you as we all know that upsmash ties with Peach downsmash from below. Easy neutral air KOs and if you can spot some Yoshi bombs, the transformations give you different opportunities for them. My only gripe is that teching downsmash while recovering here is really really hard.

Sheik: Maybe. Transformations slightly hinder chaingrabs, but the terrain also promotes lots of her lagless aerials instead along with her angled needle camping. The impact on having platforms near the edge, however, is that if Yoshi can get launchers and DJCs happening, the platforms can lead into tech roll abuse or can even open up KO opportunities that are (conveniently) near the edge.

Marth: Mmmmm, maybe? I want to say yes, but the platforms mean you don't know exactly what swing is coming at you when he's under or around them. The big deal about Marth is that he commits to his swings, but when you don't know what's coming, he gets much more dangerous. I would recommend supershielding and using safe up tilt launchers off of Marth's laggy whiffs in order to play at your pace and not get wailed on.

Samus: No. CC and missiles and platforms = bad idea.

Jigglypuff: Yes. Lots of opportunities for some early KOs and her ability to knock you out of your jump is minimized by the short sides of the stage; that is to say, you won't really get KOd at a faster rate than you would on a larger stage while you can score earlier heavy hits on her. Upsmash is good as usual and surprise Yoshi Bombs are actually really good for once-in-a-while KOs on the transformations.