WTF is up with Luigi? (Is this smash 4?)

[Miryafa]

Yesterday I was practicing Zelda v. Luigi with a level 7 cpu, and I learned I have about 0 true combos.
-Up-smash didn't combo to up-smash at 0 percent.
-He escaped Nair before the last hit.
-He got hits in between down-tilt and Nayru's Love.
-Din's Fire gave him about 0 hit-stun.

On the other hand,
-His attacks seemed to be free on my shield, and I couldn't OoS up-smash before he got in a second attack.
-His disjointed bair outspaced Zelda's.
-He could wave-dash in and attack whenever I tried to create space for a short-hop LK.

The only things that worked were up-smash LK, and get-him-in-the-air-somethow up-air juggle-to-death.

Am I missing something big, or is playing against Luigi just smash 4 (spacing and safe neutral attacks)?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

You aren't wrong. Luigi is one of the characters that Zelda has a harder time getting a lot of combos on. One thing that will help is to learn when he can break out of your combos and bait him to throw out one of his aerials or use up his double jump. Din's will gain more combo potential as you get higher percentages on him. Nair will be more effective when it is not being used to pull the opponent with Zelda. You should be able to link f-tilt into something (at least Nair or a Lightning Kick). You might want to try experimenting with flub kicks into sweetspot kicks (I haven't tried that myself against him yet). Also you may be able to get something after jab (dash attack, kick, running grab with or without jump cancel). Land canceled Nayru's should be able to link into a kick if not more. That's interesting that he got a hit in between Nayru's. Could you describe what happened a little more? Are you talking about at the end of a LC Nayru's?

We do have a thread dedicated specifically to Zelda's matchups but unfortunately it currently doesn't have any data for Luigi. That thread is continuously developing though so it may be worth checking back there in the future. Actually, it would be a great place to post character questions such as this as it would help promote discussion and likely get you more feedback. http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-matchup-anthology.394355/

 

[Vitriform]

Yesterday I was practicing Zelda v. Luigi with a level 7 cpu, and I learned I have about 0 true combos.
-Up-smash didn't combo to up-smash at 0 percent.
-He escaped Nair before the last hit.
-He got hits in between down-tilt and Nayru's Love.
-Din's Fire gave him about 0 hit-stun.

On the other hand,
-His attacks seemed to be free on my shield, and I couldn't OoS up-smash before he got in a second attack.
-His disjointed bair outspaced Zelda's.
-He could wave-dash in and attack whenever I tried to create space for a short-hop LK.

The only things that worked were up-smash LK, and get-him-in-the-air-somethow up-air juggle-to-death.

Am I missing something big, or is playing against Luigi just smash 4 (spacing and safe neutral attacks)?

Luigi's definitely an unusual matchup. I find that there are three key things to keep in mind when dealing with him.

1) You can outspace him and outcamp him with Din's Fire and SH Bair mixups if you can keep him at a distance (I think Lightning Kick will beat his Bair if you space it so only the disjointed part of the sweetspot strikes his hurtbox, but I'm not certain) His WD can help him get in and is hard to get around at times (Nayru, especially the grounded variant due to its invincibility frames, and well-timed Dsmashes can help you get him out of your space), but in general, you want to pretend you're Marth and go for "tippers" with all of your moves. Don't let him get too close to you if possible, since his attacks are murder on your shield.

2) He's really hard to combo. He's floaty and has extremely quick startup and high priority on his aerials. You'll have to accept this fact and respect it. There's really not much of a way around it other than the fact that it's a part of the matchup and you'll have to learn to deal with it.

3) Don't overextend into Luigi. Ever. If you suspect that he has even a moment available to him in which he can combo break, immediately drop the combo and reset to neutral, securing as much stage control as you can along the way. Luigi can easily reverse the situation, and suddenly you're the one being comboed. Sometimes, you can use Din's Fire to extend the combo without putting yourself at risk. Do this whenever the opportunity presents itself, but make sure you're out of his range before you try it. His aerial mobility isn't the greatest, so as long as you're not within a few character lengths of him, it's safe to do this. Luigi is at his strongest when he is grounded and can use his powerful WD. Although his combo breakers are available to him in the air, he doesn't have much else going for him. Try to juggle him with well-spaced Uairs and Utilts (the intangible arm makes the latter a viable option). He might have trouble getting down.

 

[noobftw]

Other things I would note from playing luigi is that his approaches are mostly stunted by naryu's. So if they are going to aggro or being too predictable naryu will be the get off me move.
In terms of edgeguarding I find it pretty difficult to edgeguard him sometimes. His side-B and down-B definitely give him a lot of options. But if you knick him after the down b he should die pretty easily even with weak bair. Putting a din's on center stage and holding the ledge and refreshing it is a good way to edgeguard him instead of the standard din's near the edge. Another thing to try is to throw the dins so it hits luigi while he is charging side b. If he is recovering high you should be fine with uptilt, naryu's, and fsmash.
Baiting out luigi's moves is really key into "comboing him" Up smash to up air is pretty reliable or upsmash to lighning kick at lower percents. Don't try for more than 3 hit combos unless you know he can't do anything. If you short hop and bait out the nair then you can upair or uptilt sometimes and catch him off guard and possibly kill him.
Also Luigi's shield pressure is ridiculous on zelda. So your options shouldn't be lightning kick or upsmash oos. It's more or farore's to reset to neutral, buffer roll, or wavedash oos. These are much better since his moves are too fast when playing against luigi.
Definitely a weird match up. But it's a weird match up for everyone xD like how zelda is a weird match up for other people as well ahaha

 

[ZGE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCyhRVlIl0s

This is a set I played against a Luigi at a tournament with like 90 something entrants I think. While there are a lot of things that I do that I shouldn't (teleport to edge/randomly give up stage control), I feel that overall I played pretty well. See if you can take the good things from that and go from there.

 

[noobftw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCyhRVlIl0s

This is a set I played against a Luigi at a tournament with like 90 something entrants I think. While there are a lot of things that I do that I shouldn't (teleport to edge/randomly give up stage control), I feel that overall I played pretty well. See if you can take the good things from that and go from there.

I really like your movement. Although you were getting fsmash happy and fair happy but a win is a win. I feel like if luigi throws a lot of fireballs it's super hard for zelda to do things. Naryu's is too much of a commitment as well as dins since luigi's wavedash is so amazing. Anyway I'll be happy to watch any of your other videos since I'm starting to work movement into my game now.

 

[Miryafa]

Thanks for the replies guys. ZGE, I like your auto-cancelled Nayru's into up-smash, that auto-cancelling is definitely something I haven't learned yet.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Thanks for the replies guys. ZGE, I like your auto-cancelled Nayru's into up-smash, that auto-cancelling is definitely something I haven't learned yet.

Land cancel, not auto-cancel. Special moves don't have l-canceling or auto-cancelling. Nayru's has a specially implemented function called land cancelling. That said, it functions about the same way. Just land a few frames after the hitboxes end, and you can act immediately

 

[Miryafa]

Land cancel, not auto-cancel. Special moves don't have l-canceling or auto-cancelling. Nayru's has a specially implemented function called land cancelling. That said, it functions about the same way. Just land a few frames after the hitboxes end, and you can act immediately

Oh. And I learn even more.

That's interesting that he got a hit in between Nayru's. Could you describe what happened a little more? Are you talking about at the end of a LC Nayru's?

And I realized I forgot about this - sorry!

I mean down-tilt to Nayru's Love, the combo that works on most characters as long as they don't hit the ground or tech. Luigi gets so little hitstun from the down-tilt that he just attacked me after my down-tilt and before Nayru's connected.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Oh. And I learn even more.


And I realized I forgot about this - sorry!

I mean down-tilt to Nayru's Love, the combo that works on most characters as long as they don't hit the ground or tech. Luigi gets so little hitstun from the down-tilt that he just attacked me after my down-tilt and before Nayru's connected.

Oh of course. That makes much more sense. For some reason I was thinking that he had interrupted Nayru's after already being caught in it. On an interesting note, the beginning of Nayru's hitboxes can trade with other moves which favors the opponent like 99% of the time. You are far more likely to take more damage and be in hitstun longer than your opponent.