Wolf Projectiles Discussion

[Wolf4Evah]

I personally believe that since the matchup thread is only 9 characters in, we need a thread to describe who Wolf can outcamp. So I created this discussion thread, which I will kick off.

Current Projectile Definition

A projectile

-causes damage
-has a hitbox
-usually doesn't have a hurtbox
-usually has hitstun
-usually reflectable

A projectile is not

-causing an item to appear
-being able to do something else while holding it (ROBS gyros aren't held, just charged)

i.e. suit parts, bike parts, bananas are not projectiles!

Characters with no Projectile
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ike
Squirtle (water doesn't count)
Charizard (fire breath doesn't count)
Bowser (again...)
Sonic
DK
Kirby (sword laser doesn't count)
Marth
Meta Knight

Characters with an inferior projectile to Wolf (Debatable)

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Gayman Watch

Characters with an equivalent projectile (Debatable)
Ivysaur
Fox

Characters with a slightly better projectile than Wiolf (Debatable)
Samus
Yoshi
Ness
Lucas
Shiek
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
DeDeDe

Characters with a much better projectile or many projectiles (Debatable)
Zelda
Pit
ROB
Snake
Falco


Characters under debate (but not Pit. no questions)
ZSS
Toon Link
Link
Wario
Diddy Kong
Olimar

So these are the character projectiles as I see them. Feel free to comment on what you believe, as these can and will change.

 

[Gah777]

Um... ZSS DOES have a projectile. Did you think the gun was just for show?

Edit: also when Wario's bike breaks are you going to count the wheels as projectiles?

 

[Dv8tor]

Yeah ZSS does have a cool projectile, but the wheels from Wario don't count. Even if you did, they suck, they don't even have knockback.

 

[rvkevin]

but the wheels from Wario don't count. Even if you did, they suck, they don't even have knockback.

But Bike does beat Blaster.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Olimar is wrong. Wolf is the only character that can outcamp Olimar, apparently, so fix that.

Link - I bet we outcamp him
Zelda - lol No
Pit - assuming he outcamps us
Toon Link - I've played the two best TL's in MD, and I can camp them just as well.
ROB - Even
Snake - Even

 

[Seagull Joe]

I guess I'll give my two cents of this.
1. Diddy nanerz>Wolf's laser. They have setups and more possibilities associated with them.
2. Link sucks and his projectiles come out slow.
3. Snake is so annoying and can outspam Wolf.
4. Wario's tire isn't a projectile?
5. Zss has a projectile.
6.Falco's lasers>Wolf's lasers.
7.Wolf's lasers>Olimar's pikmin.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

For Diddy and Wario, once you throw your projectile, Wolf has it. We're talking about out camping someone else. Whatever else is associated with the item is irrelevant.

Wolf > Wario/Diddy

Simple.

And I don't know why Falco isn't at the very bottom of the list. He has **** storms of projectiles.

 

[rvkevin]

Wario can punish a grounded blaster with Bike, Diddy can trade hits with Banana and gains tempo.

If your Blaster is getting punished, how exactly do you plan to camp? (Which means aerial mobility and ability to reflect should be taken into consideration, not just the strength of one's projectile)

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Any good camper isn't going to be sitting on the ground like an idiot. Who the hell camps like that? You have to move around with the blaster, and you have to time your attacks. You can't just go balls crazy with your projectile with Wolf like TL or Falco would. There's actually a thinking process in there.

Wolf has the fourth best horizontal movement in the game, he can move well while blastering.

 

[Wolf4Evah]

True.

ZSS is going to be moved to characters that are under debate, along with Diddy, Wario, and Toon link.

And my 3 cents (to be different).

Bike wheels does not equal projectile. Just because you can throw something does not mean you have a projectile. And bike does beat laser, but I'm talking about projectiles here.

ZSSwise, i agree she has a projectile, but i think that we have a better one, cause she needs to charge hers. Of course, you can't camp ZSS. Ever.

Wolf is better than olimar. This is true.

Link and Toon Link have a *****load of projectiles that come from everywhere. You have one that goes in a straight line. They're like ROB, only slower.

Diddy's popguns suck, and he has to pick up his bananas. Wolf has shot him by now. You can't camp him, but he can't camp you.

Pit - yes, he outcamps you. Good pits hit you anywhere, anytime.

Zelda - nuff said.

Snake just has too many options. Oh, and snakes camping you!

Oh, and ROB has a better projectile(s) because he has two options. His gyros stick around and come out when he wants, and his laser bounces, and is huge!

Also, Falco does have better projectiles that wolf, but fox is even. don't try to camp him though.

 

[Gah777]

Let's start by defining the term "projectile". Projectile: something that is shot, not dropped and thrown. I projectile is not an object. With the exception of diddys peanuts (they can be caught but are still technically a projectile.

Examples of non-projectiles:
-any part of warios bike
-nanners
-grenades
-etc.

Robs gyro is a projectile because he shoots it.

Is that a clear definition? Anyone have something they want to add or change?

 

[Wolf4Evah]

I'd consider Snakes grenades a projectile, because he must throw them (can't do something else).
Also - Moves with range does not equal projectile. For example, Charizard's flamethrower is not a projectile because it can only go so far from Charizard (fixed range), while a true projectile can goes the same distance regardless of the location of the character (unless it his something). Squirtles water gun and marios FLUUD are not projectiles, because they do not cause flinching, hitstun, damage, etc. You could make an argument for kirbys sword laser thing. I'm gonna call it not a projectile cause it ain't, but it does have the properties of a projectile (not hurtbox, reflectable, etc.)

Overall, a projectile

-causes damage
-has a hitbox
-usually doesn't have a hurtbox
-usually has hitstun
-usually reflectable

A projectile is not

-causing an item to appear
-being able to do something else while holding it (ROBS gyros aren't held, just charged)

i.e. suit parts, bike parts, bananas are not projectiles!

 

[Gah777]

If you consider snakes grenades a projectile you would also have to consider banannas a projectile as well

Edit: or by your definition of "a projectile is NOT causing an item to appear" would mean snakes grenageds are not projectiles since he causes the grenade item to appear.

You could also say the bannanas are projectiles because of the animation where diddy first throws the nanna.

I feel that neither grenades nor banannas (or bombs for that matter) are projectiles.

Oh and one more thing I just noticed (just a side note): snake CAN do things with his grenades other than throw them. He can shield drop them for instance.

 

[ArcPoint]

Suit parts, bike parts, and bananas are projectiles...they cause hitlag for the hitee but not the hitter. And plus they can be picked up and thrown, I know I can't pick up and throw bairs at you...although that'd be amazing if I could.

 

[Ishiey]

How about listing items and regular projectiles in seperate categories? And we should be sure to mention which projectiles cancel/negate.

I'm sorta unclear on something though, are we going to discuss outcamping or simply compare projectiles?

 

[Dv8tor]

A basic understanding of the discussion is needed before debate Ishiey.

Personally I think anything that must be picked up is no projectile. Yes this might mean Snake's grenades, but they are a very gray area. Maybe the definition would be anything that can be produced by the character and thrown or shot without picking it up first, the only other gray area character would be Peach I think, but if we count Snake's grenades then she would count also. They just have extreme lag.

Diddy's bananas must be picked up; therefore, not a projectile. Wario must break his bike AND pick it up, there's not much worse of a projectile than that. No matter what anyone might think about Diddy, Snake, or Peach, Wario has NO projectile, period.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Alright, I lied, I came back. Sue me.

You can't outcamp someone by using an item that's not easily spammable. You can't tell me you can camp with a tire. To get those, you have to get on a bike, off the bike, destroy the bike, grab the tire. Throw the two. Often times, repeat.

Snake's grenades will be counted since he can easily replenish them. Nanners, on the other hand, can sit on the ground for a much longer amount of time and not disappear, and they also can't be "shot" at an opponent.

ROB's gyro, once thrown, must be charged again to get back (if not in the opponent's hand, that is). This takes time. You can't just throw tons of gyros at the opponent. Thus, not possible to camp with (to the degree real spammers do).

Get it? Take my definition if you want it, I don't care.

Note: I actually went so far as blocking smashboards on my PC so I wouldn't be distracted from my book. I can now only get on at school, where I'm really bored most of the time. If I have any sense though, you won't see me often. Cya.

 

[rvkevin]

An easy distinction between items and projectiles. Items can be picked up, projectiles cannot. Therefore if someone throws an item at you, you have the opportunity to instant throw it back.

The only way for Snake's grenades to be good for camping is if he cooks them, otherwise you can just throw them back at him. And if you're trying to camp a character, you're basically giving them an indefinite amount of time to approach (not all characters are going to try and camp you), meaning they can setup whatever offense they want (i.e. Wario breaking down a bike, Diddy's bananas, etc.). And even if you consider Wario to not have a projectile, he can still out camp most of the cast, so just because you have a better projectile doesn't mean that you can camp them. It could be said that Olimar's Pikman take time to pluck, but he can pull one in between each laser, therefore each character has trouble camping each other. Same for Rob's Gyro, charge it in between lasers or shoot it at one and grab it (By itself, it is not that great, but you need to consider it combined with Rob's laser)...

 

[MidnightAsaph]

The only way for Snake's grenades to be good for camping is if he cooks them, otherwise you can just throw them back at him.

Wrong. All Snake has to do is shield. It automatically forces you to drop the grenade. He can stop it in mid-air as well after he throws it. Do people not know this? I never see it talked about.

And if you're trying to camp a character, you're basically giving them an indefinite amount of time to approach (not all characters are going to try and camp you), meaning they can setup whatever offense they want (i.e. Wario breaking down a bike, Diddy's bananas, etc.). And even if you consider Wario to not have a projectile, he can still out camp most of the cast, so just because you have a better projectile doesn't mean that you can camp them.

This is a projectile camping discussion. Such things as air camping and what not are not relevant.

It could be said that Olimar's Pikman take time to pluck, but he can pull one in between each laser, therefore each character has trouble camping each other.

Wolf's bayonet and actual laser kill Pikmin. That is why he camps better, apparently. I'd have to check again to make sure, but it's either Wolf's advantage or even.

 

[rvkevin]

"Wrong. All Snake has to do is shield. It automatically forces you to drop the grenade. He can stop it in mid-air as well after he throws it. Do people not know this? I never see it talked about."

I know, but if he doesn't cook it, and he drops it in front of you before or after you throw it, you have adequate time to jump or shield...If you see Snake cooking the grenade, don't attempt to instant throw it back...I don't see the problem.

"This is a projectile camping discussion. Such things as air camping and what not are not relevant."

Effective camping means damaging your opponent in the process or maintaining a lead...If they are able to air camp until timer without taking damage, I would think that it would be relevant. In the OP, "We need a thread to describe who Wolf can outcamp." In this sense, you could consider Bair a camping tool.


"Wolf's bayonet and actual laser kill Pikmin. That is why he camps better, apparently. I'd have to check again to make sure, but it's either Wolf's advantage or even."

Bayonet does kill Pikmin, but I think every so often the Pikmin deals damage, Olimar only gets hit if he makes a mistake, it would be hard for me to call it Wolf's advantage.

Wolf's camping ability isn't due to his projectile...its due to his aerial mobility. Sure, blaster forces an approach, but if your goal is to time someone out, his aerial mobility is much better than his projectile...

 

[Dv8tor]

Okay the Snake grenade thing is a very nice camping tool for him, the problem being that Waffle has his invincibility frames, which makes grenades useless. Wolf can easily outmaneuver while shining to camp more effectively than Snake. The nikita is also near useless because of shine, so I believe that Snake is easily outcamped by Waffle.

Bair can be a camping tool, but generally it's not used for that effectively, the only use I see in that is walling and that has holes that can be easily exploited.

I think the Olimar situation would be even, it depends upon player choices really.

It's not just the mobility, our projectile is amazing as it has a huge hitbox and moves slowly while dealing a good bit of damage. It scares people man! Without the projectile, we would have no camp game besides our bair wall, which isn't that great.

 

[PowaStar]

Definition for a projectile take from dictionary.com:

–noun 1. an object fired from a gun with an explosive propelling charge, such as a bullet, shell, rocket, or grenade.

2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

Basically anything thrown.... >.> lol at people not counting Wario's tires as an projectile.

 

[Wolf4Evah]

Okay, this thread has really moved on from projectile discussion to camping discussion. As for projectiles, id like to make this distinction:

Actual Projectiles (Moves that fire a projectile)
This includes everything that is not seen below

Item Projectiles (Moves that create items that you can immediately throw)
Snake Grenades
Peach Vegetable
Toon Link Bomb
Link bomb

Item Creators (Moves that create throwable Items)
ZSS suit parts
Diddy Bananas
Wario bike parts
Olimar's pikmin pluck (Pikmin Throw is a projectile)

Special cases (I debate where these go)
ROB Gyros
Shiek needles

This is how I would break projectiles up.

 

[Ishiey]

I'd put Shiek's needles down as a regular projectile, definitely.

Pikmin pluck shouldn't count as an item imo, since we can't pick up a pikmin and throw it back at Olimar. The pluck is more like charging a projectile in my eyes, kinda like needles.

 

[Dv8tor]

Definition for a projectile take from dictionary.com:

–noun 1. an object fired from a gun with an explosive propelling charge, such as a bullet, shell, rocket, or grenade.

2. a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.

Basically anything thrown.... >.> lol at people not counting Wario's tires as an projectile.

It's not that it isn't a projectile, it's that it is an extremely useless projectile since it's too hard to get to and use by yourself, too much risk of the opponent getting it and it doesn't really have any stun or knockback anyway. So if you think in terms of what a Smash projectile would be, like in camping situations, it does not count. So useless, so just don't count it.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Reflectoring the grenades is pretty neat.

And do we really need to define projectiles? The discussion is who we can/can't outcamp, it shouldn't matter what the opponents projectile is, just whether they can camp better or not.

 

[rvkevin]

I was thinking the same thing...

The only point that could be made was that item projectiles can be caught/instant thrown back, whereas typical projectiles can't be.

 

[Wolf4Evah]

If this has moved on to a camping discussion, it should be moved to another thread.

 

[Apollo$]

Items that can be thrown back should just be items and projectiles are just lasers, needles, fireballs, arrows, missiles, eggs and etc. What about waddle Dee's? hmmm... it's kinda hard to categorize some of these.