Wolf Matchup Thread

[The Baron]

Why is it everytime I come to update this thread, it turns into maintenance. I hate these spoiler tags

 

[Garr]

Hey guys, any word of advice on Wolf vs Roy? Roy's one of Mewtwo's worst MUs, probably worse since they nerfed the range his most reliable anti-CC'ing tool. My Wolf is getting better and better, and it's gotten to the point I'm comfortable using him as counter.

How's the MU and what's the best thing to do in it?

 

[The Baron]

Hey guys, any word of advice on Wolf vs Roy? Roy's one of Mewtwo's worst MUs, probably worse since they nerfed the range his most reliable anti-CC'ing tool. My Wolf is getting better and better, and it's gotten to the point I'm comfortable using him as counter.

How's the MU and what's the best thing to do in it?

Pick a big stage and don't approach. Ever. with the nerf to nair, your shield pressure isn't terribly good and roy has a lot of options to stop bad approaches. Also, cc shine is your best friend, especially against roys nerfed d-tilt. Or really just crouch cancel in general. I don't know what roy v mewtwo is like for you but I can't imagine it getting any better by switching to wolf. I honestly think roy mewtwo is better for mewtwo as he is a lot floatier, and has a disjoint and fairly nice projectile to force approaches with or kill. Do you have any matches I can watch. I'm not the best player I can make decent judgement and playstyle calls.

 

[Garr]

Pick a big stage and don't approach. Ever. with the nerf to nair, your shield pressure isn't terribly good and roy has a lot of options to stop bad approaches. Also, cc shine is your best friend, especially against roys nerfed d-tilt. Or really just crouch cancel in general. I don't know what roy v mewtwo is like for you but I can't imagine it getting any better by switching to wolf. I honestly think roy mewtwo is better for mewtwo as he is a lot floatier, and has a disjoint and fairly nice projectile to force approaches with or kill. Do you have any matches I can watch. I'm not the best player I can make decent judgement and playstyle calls.

I don't think there's any VODs intact, only ones where I fought scrubby Roys and not the legit ones.

Being floaty doesn't help Mewtwo that much because he's big, so Roy still has a solid combo game on him. The only time Mewtwo is at an advantage is when Roy is in the air, but the problem with that is actually getting him off the damn ground. The combination of low knockback moves plus Roy's infamous CC game makes it a chore to get anything started, plus all his move have priority.

I would rather use Wolf against Roy for his speed and baiting.

 

[Garr]

I don't think there's any VODs intact, only ones where I fought scrubby Roys and not the legit ones.

Being floaty doesn't help Mewtwo that much because he's big, so Roy still has a solid combo game on him. The only time Mewtwo is at an advantage is when Roy is in the air, but the problem with that is actually getting him off the damn ground. The combination of low knockback moves plus Roy's infamous CC game makes it a chore to get anything started, plus all his move have priority. It's like they suddenly sprout roots into the ground and you can't pop them up ever.

I would rather use Wolf against Roy for his speed and baiting.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I can weigh in on the Roy MU. The trick is constant movement and catching him in the air or on a platform. Lasers are your biggest tool here. Waveland blaster into grab is the easiest way to get him above you, and from there you can straight combo him to death. You can not be reckless though. One CC dtilt and you're screwed. Dtilt fsmash can put you offstage at zero, and it can be troublesome getting back on. You both combo each other to death, but Wolf can certainly win the neutral. Catch him going up to waveland off a platform or jumping in on you if you can, then uair the **** out of him

 

[Kerfuffle]

I personally hate the Roy MU though. It feels like you have to put SO much more work into it than he does. Its pretty even, but you have to work 3X as hard for the same results.

 

[mattphillyphan]

Starting to toy around with Wolf and I gotta wonder, as a Ganon main, how does Wolf do against Shiek?

 

[The Baron]

Starting to toy around with Wolf and I gotta wonder, as a Ganon main, how does Wolf do against Shiek?

swiggity swooty bop http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-sheik.401645/#post-19376537

 

[ACAL Squall]

Can anybody give some tips on the Wolf vs Luigi matchup? Struggling, man. Struggling lol

 

[KingNinja]

There might be a thread on mewtwo but the spoilers arents showing up but help on the mewtwo matchup would be great

 

[Kerfuffle]

Luigi is pretty annoying, you really have to learn to not overextend. Lasers lasers and more lasers to force a sloppy approach, and get in short punishes that stay as low to the ground as possible. If he goes up, bait out a nair and continue to juggle him. Take him to PS2 and kill him off the top with up smash or tipper fair. He's annoying, but I think wolf wins this one.

 

[The Baron]

Can anybody give some tips on the Wolf vs Luigi matchup? Struggling, man. Struggling lol

I don't really know, weegee is annoying. I just camp lasers and don't try and combo because frame 3 nair

There might be a thread on mewtwo but the spoilers arents showing up but help on the mewtwo matchup would be great

I'm probably just going to redo that entire first part of the thread because I can't get spoiler tags to function correctly. I don't know much about mewtwo but @ Garr randomly appeared a few weeks ago so maybe he can help because he plays mewtwo.

 

[Kerfuffle]

How is snake dealt with? I couldn't get anything going on him due to up-b OoS and grenades in shield, and I was constantly getting chaingrabbed with up throw. I really don't know what to do in this MU. Its hard as hell to edgeguard him too, I had to perfectly time ledge invincibility for a bair or else he'd get back for free by covering the ledge with a grenade and then dropping cypher to get to the ledge. My movement was severely restricted as well, every time I'd waveland a blaster toward him he would dacus, stuff the laser and I'd eat the up smash. I seriously need help with this one.

 

[XF_Awkward]

All that snake stuff you just said.

Long story short, Snakes not that good at approaching, has pretty damn good OOS options, grenades make it a ***** to bring the fight to him, and he can live forever if you let him.

First thing on that list, Snake has a weakness of not having great approach options. His Dacus is amazing, but if you know what to look for it can be obvious and should be avoided. His grenades and tranqs are also very potent, but only if you're standing in a direct line for him to hit you with them. Other than that, his nair fair and dair really aren't that hard to deal with. I'd imagine his bair could give you some trouble but honestly the snakes I play with don't RAR enough for me to know. The rest of his kit is either ineffective for approaching or has serious endlag that leaves open opportunities for you to get in. Wolf's fragile as ****, Snake is not. Play your stocks safe and wait for your openings, because chances are he has a better chance of ending your stock before you can end his if you screw up.

His OOS game is legit. Respect it. Up B is great, but the rest of his aerials afterwards can't be any better than the other spacies, and probably should be treated the same way. Shine OOS punish if you can, if not wait til you can find an out and don't jump to any rash decisions, making mistakes here can lead to big punishes. Play it safe and pay attention to his grab habits if he looks to mix those in. Spotdodge shine is a great way to flip the situation if you know its coming. As for how to pressure his shield safely, be very tight with your timings or get out of the way. Between up B oos, grenades being dropped and shield grabs, a lot can be done to knock you down and put you in a **** situation. If you abandon your unsuccessful shield pressure safely, worst thing that happens is you reset back to neutral and have the opportunity for him to try to approach you again. KEEP IN MIND, HITTING THE GRENADE WILL DETONATE IT. Nair is godlike at poking shields, and sometimes you do NOT want to be poking snakes shield. If you can, properly space dairs instead, or just walk away from the situation and play it safe.

Snakes are going to live for years, and you kinda have to get used to it lol. He can be comboed pretty well so you can get him to those higher percents with little to no problem, but closing out the stock can be a problem if you don't pick up how he's making it back to the stage. Pay attention to what he does when he's coming back. If they're recovering low, you can expect the cypher to the ledge, and thats an option you can cover with a well timed ledge grab. This forces them to have to C4 hop. Bair them if you can or just play it safe and see how they recover from there. If they're coming in high, bait out grenades and work around them. Snake only has so many resources out there, and a lot of them will just throw stuff out as a knee jerk reaction.

uh im tired as hell... Hope that helps some. Be weary, I don't have a good Snake around to really test whats what, but these are just my thoughts on what I have seen.

 

[Garr]

There might be a thread on mewtwo but the spoilers arents showing up but help on the mewtwo matchup would be great

Hello, superdy duper technical Mewtwo main here.

Wolf vs Mewtwo is either 55-45 or even.

In neutral, all Mewtwo wants to do is grab or get you offstage. With generally low knockback on his tilts, he's gonna have a hard time scooping you up at low percents, but U-throw will take you into a world of hurt. This goes for all the spacies, to be honest. Treat him like Marth. You do NOT wanna get grabbed. Ever.

Now, the Wolf player should pester Mewtwo with his lasers, but be super careful about spamming it. A good Mewtwo will teleport behind you, and chances are you won't be able to do anything about it since you're going through some ending lag. Also, abuse your speed. Mewtwo's slow, but be aware of his insane wavedash length (4th longest, i think?).

Now the reason why this MU is slightly in Wolf's favor is his combo game. Mewtwo's a big, meaty target that is perfect for early side B kills. Surprisingly, Wolf has an easier time killing him than Fox or Falco. Shine to side B, D-tilt to side B, or B-throw to side B will be easy to pull off since he;s so big. However, be careful as Mewtwo strives in breaking out of unsafe combos. Ideally, you should be killing him at 70-90%.

As for edgeguarding, all I can really tell you is pick up on their teleporting habits. That's all I got. Mewtwo's super hard to edgeguard, and with the exception of a few characters, he will come back for free if the blastzones don't get to him. Now, on the other end, Mewtwo's edgeguard game is mad strong on Wolf. Having a worse recovery than the other spacies, Wolf will struggle hard coming back. Mewtwo's has shadow balls, Bair, and Uair for a plethora of offstage mixups. But dude, if you can, try hitting them with the side B. It's hella funny.

Take Mewtwo to stages with narrow, horizontal blastzones to kill him earlier. Warioware and Yoshi's Story are great for this MU. Avoid FD and Dreamland at all costs!

TL;DR Don't get grabbed, side B fo dayz, you're SOL offstage, very small stages are your friend

 

[InfinityCollision]

Hello, superdy duper technical Mewtwo main here.

Your play is decent overall, but I dunno if I'd call your execution technical yet.

Wolf wins the matchup. Anywhere that doesn't have massive blastzones is fine, just adapt your kill moves of choice based on blast zones and opportunity. Mewtwo really is side-b fodder, abuse that. If he's approaching with teleports in neutral and it's consistently working then you're way too predictable and he's punishing you for it, if it's not working then he's bad and needs to stop crutching on teleport approaches. Most Mewtwos get uncomfortable with you pressuring their space, so hanging around the edge of wd->grab range and constantly threatening approaches or lasers will usually get you far. The occasional empty hop can tell you a lot about your opponent's current state of mind. As stated, don't get grabbed.

FD as always trades neutral game for extended punishes. If the Mewtwo plays punish heavy then you should probably strike it as it'll play to their strengths. Otherwise they'll favor various platform configurations, at which point you can focus on eliminating stages where he'll live forever like Dreamland and Delfino's. Stick to stages like YS, YI, GHZ, Smashville, WW, and PS2.

The touch of death is very real on both sides, albeit in different ways. Play safe.

 

[Garr]

Your play is decent overall, but I dunno if I'd call your execution technical yet.

I don't think I was being serious when I typed 'superdy duper'.

Decent? Well, s*** son, I must git betr. What set are you taking this from? Oh, and go all out 'cuz I will never stop thinking I suck at this game lol.

 

[HelloAxi]

Squirtle

I. Overview:
Squirtle is a potentially very dangerous character for Wolf players and those inexperienced in the matchup will get demolished by any talented Squirtle. His fantastic linear combo game and strong kill options can be devastating.

Squirtle's Strengths:

• • Strong linear combo game
  • Above average recovery with big hitbox in front of up B
  • Can fairly easily kill at 0 with a throw near ledge like a Puff
  • Very fast when using turnaround mechanics
  • Great tech chase and great pressure
  • Can go suprisingly deep offstage
  • Fair/Nair/Bair will wreck your ****
  • Low traction (Good wavedash, easily edge cancels, etc)
  • Very small ( I think smallest in game) which means he is hard to hit with energem and hard to grab if he crouches.
  • Bubble Beam

Squirtle's Weaknesses:

• • Predictable recovery
  • Good combo weight
  • Fairly light
  • Up B is easily punished if you get behind the hitbox (dair anyone?)
  • Terrible tech rolls
  • You have a better neutral
  • Limited OOS options
  • Low traction (you are safer hitting shield with hard attacks because of how far it sends squirtle away)

Key Points:

• • Squirtles side B (Withdraw) has light armor which means it will ignore lasers
  • Side b also can be used to easily change his momentum. Be wary of him using side b out of hitstun
  • TACUS. Turn Around Cancelled Up Smash. Similar to a DACUS, sqirtle can cancel his turnaround animation into an upsmash. Proficient squirtles can even use Down Smash or Forward Smash out of this with some nifty tech. They can also wavedash and grab out of this. very scary. If you see a squirtle start to retreat from you and hear the sound of him turning around (same sound he makes when he enters the stage) get ready to do a spot dodge. F smash is a mixup he can use during this if he turns it around which can catch you if you spot dodge.
  • Be careful of squirtles Bubble Beam (Down B) this causes tripping when grounded, hits multiple times, cannot be reflected, can stall squirtle in air, is super disjointed, and will gimp you like hes not even trying.

II. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Squirtle's neutral.
  • Squirtle wants to land a couple things on you and has a couple safe tools to do so
  - Be careful of Withdraw. If squirtle hits shield with it he will go behind you and can easily use Bair or Uair if you buffer a grab, dropping shield. These moves can start a tech chase situation which squirtle is pretty good in
  • • TACUS
  -All of these can be very safe for squirtle to use. He can fling himself about 3/4 fd length fast than any other char while charging an smash. This is very dangerous for you... if you don't know about it. If you do know be prepared to react. Shield is often the best and easiest counter to this if the squirtle uses an attack. Most squirtle players will only use an up smash which is probably his worst option on wolf. Up smash has probably around 24 minutes of endlag. Even if you get hit at low percents you have time to tech and shine. At higher percents this could lead into an up air string or fair kill but it's a small window. (Note: If you shield and the upsmash triggers behind you squirtle might be flung off the stage because of his low traction.)​

• • • TACDS

- A great combo start that has three sets of hit boxes. The first two link into the third. The size of the hitbox for the first two hits are one squirtle shell away + one on squirtle himself, and the third has hitboxes two shells away+ one on squirtle. The last hitbox is a solid combo starter for him (but you can tech it)​

• • TACFS

-One of his best kill options on the ground. Low angle and high knockback. Probably the hardest to preform consistently though. Squirtle launches himself forward a pretty decent length too so be careful when trying to shield grab as he may be far out of range by then.​

• Your neutral
  • This should consist of wave dashing back with lasers to create enough distance to react to TAC- stuff.
  • Grabs get you a lot of mileage. His tech roll is atrociously slow and easy to continue a combo with. Up throw works well until ~50% (Play around with this one, they may not react in time and a squirtle above you without a jump is a very good scenario anyways)
  • You get a ton of mileage off of grabs, tech chase situations. Sheik is one of squirtles worst matchups (pre 3.6) so play grabs like a Sheik.

Comboing/Punishing Squirtle:

• • Squirtle is a Lightweight (same weight as sonic, very near Lucas and Roy) which means combos with starting with up throw will fail if he jumps at around 50-60%
  • however your goal should be to keep him in the air because Squirtle has one good move to cover his bottom when above. His Dair is a multihit move that makes his tail invincible. Easy to get around though as it only hits right below him and lasts a long time. Last hit will pop you up. Up Air is a good tool to combat this as it will go through or trade and is wide enough to cover his drift in air. Nair has light armor but that wont stop you.
  • Use dair alot. Again, tech chase is easy. Squirtle dies from dair > fair on many stages at around 90-100
  • Dair >Energem starts at 60%. You will start having to jump at 80% and stops working after 130%.
  • Shine >Energerm starts at 40%, requires full jump at 90, and stops working after 120
  • Energem kills at center stage at 80% (Note that all of this is based on PS2, with max length energem and no DI, rounded to nearest 10%)

• • Punishing squirtle can be hard because of his various momentum shifts, safe moves, armor, and traction. It might take longer than most characters to adapt. You should punish with anything that launches or causes tech chase and just do wolf things from there.
  • Near ledge at around 70-80 use sour fair, land then use bair to kill of sides. Very good mixup.
  • Pressuring his shield is fairly safe. He has short grab range and he is limited to wavedash oos or bair oos if you get behind him which return to neutral or are very slow, respectively.
  • His upsmash oos and upb oos are both around 10 frames before hitbox comes out. UpB is only in front of him as well except on first few frames (Hitbox about two squirtles wide, centered on squirtle).

• • Try to kill squirtle off side by using bair, fair, f smash or d smash. The lower the trajectory the better. if he has a jump he can recovery very easily. If he goes to recover jump over where you predict he will go (ie below sweetspot) and smack him with a dair as he comes up. Be Chillen. He can't recover from those without a jump.
  • Be careful about his side B offstage. It helps him recover, protects from lasers and he can sweetspot ledge with it.
  • He dies off top quicker than most too. Up smash kills with no DI and front hitbox at 100. If they DI well it's about 120 I think.
  • If you land a shine at low percants you can wave dash into an uptilt string and then cntinue with aerials.
  • Learn to dacus. When you get a back throw if squirtle DI's In you regrab. If he DI's out you get a hit with DACUS. Dash attack is less safe and easier to whiff.
  • Squirtle has a hidden move called Aquajet. It activates when you hit up during the beginning frames of his Side B. Treat this like it's a shine and a rest combined. Knockback and speed is similar to a shine but squirtle is helpless afterwards and the detect box is very small like rest, and will kill you off the top at over 100. He also gets a large ledge grab box when this connects all around him. Be careful of this move.
  • Your up air/fair strings are pretty safe because he can't come down easily. SH Uair does NOT reach him when he is crouched. Otherwise it will. At low percents you can get a grab off of it.

Escaping Squirtle's Pressure:

• • Squirtles pressure is very rythmic or very safe.
  • Up close he can hit you with side B and cross up into bair or up air, he can jab up to three times into a grab or use dtilt to poke, and he can use some squirtle tech to slide back while jabbing or dtilting for safety. Much of this can be shield grabbed with good timing. Do not try to grab if he is doing dtilt. He will slide back out of range and punish you. Roll away, or attack first.
  • Many of squirtles combos can be crouch cancelled and you can shine in between them.
  • Shine OOS breaks yu out of his close combos
  • Squirtle has a great crouch cancel game. His dtilt will wreck you at any percent. He gets a lot of mileage from grabs so avoid those like the plague.
  • Many Squirtles use Bubble beam as an approach tool. It's a very good tool because it can cause tripping. Learn to tech trips and jump during the startup of this move. You can't trip while airborne.
  • Squirtle can put out a hitbox with his turnaround when he ges into shell. This is a very low hitbox so angle your shield down. I do not believe you can him if he does this. Wave dash / roll back after he retreats. Be careful because he can cancel the turnaround into a d tilt or a jab. However that tech isn't well known.

• • If Squirtle get's a grab on you at low perents he has only a couple options.
    • If he up throws you can potentially regrab at low percents or begin an up air/ uptilt string.
    • If he does any other throw it's a tech chase situation. Every throw will knock you down at zero.
  • At mid-high percents
    • Squirtle will start mixing in aerials after throws. Up throw leads into a nasty up air string which he can kill off of no problem or straight up fair. All of his aerials are good at killing you after up air except dair, but even with that he can kamikaze you.
    • F throw and B Throw are mainly used to put you towards edge. Don't DI inwards when being thrown off stage because you will eat a fair. This is a mixup for his kill throw which is...
    • D throw. DIing up will allow you to survive this until very high percents. But accidentally DI downwards and you are now dead.
• Brave squirtles will try to kill after an up air string by using Up B. This move kills floaties super early but he can take you pretty close to the upper blast line with ease. You can smash DI out of this before the kill hitbox and punish him because you can land faster.

Edgeguarding Squirtle:

• Be careful of his fast, quickly ending moves while he's off stage. He can kill you while he recovers sometimes. Many squirtles use bubble beam to cover their reentry onto stage. Try to get above this as it is angled downwards. Try to get above his Up B as well and dair him into oblivion or nair kamikaze. Bair him back onto stage if you think you can kill him off of other side. Rar fair works if he is over 115.
• When he uses up B DO NOT be vulnerable on the edge. The hitbox easily covers half the distance of your roll. Shielding it will often give him enough time to fade back to ledge.
• Squirtle has a very long recovery. Avoid stages with big blastzones.
• If you can get under him safely you can use an up air to finish of the job.

Recovering against Squirtle:

• Yikes. Squirtle likes to go deep and can gimp very easily. Try to sweetspot with flash before he can get out to you. Since Squirtle uses turnaround to gain speed and fly off backwards expect Bair from above.
• Cool Squirtles who wear sunglasses will try to side b at you off stage. They are too cool and you should dorp lower so they just SD.
• He can also cover ledge with his multiple sex kicks.
• Beware bubblebeam.
• It's fairly easy to turn your recovery into a kill if you catch him in his second jump with your side b if you two are deep enough. Like I mean max range side b. Recover high as a mixup if he keeps going off stage.
• His Up B is slow. If he is forced to use it you will have enough time to land on stage. You will probably be hit by it's enormous hitbox so prepare to smash di or tech.

Putting it all together: Beat squirtle in neutral with your superior range, lasers, and better grabs.
Punish hard with tech chases and aerial strings. Squirtle get's juggled easily. When he recovers get behind his big hitboxes and wreck shop. If he has you under pressure crouch cancel shine works well. Beware the deadly Uair strings. When recovering watch out for how deep he goes and try to sweetspot fast. Recover on stage if he uses Up B.

III. Stages

• Neutral

Battlefield
YI Brawl

• Counterpicks

PS2 (best spacie stage, squirtle can get caught under stage)
Distant Planet (2nd best)
GHZ (Moving platform saves you from up air strings fairly often + you have better wall jump)

• Bans

Dreamland
Norfair (and anything else with huuuge blast zones. Squirtle has a longer recovery than you.)
FD ( which might as well mean ****in' Duh)
Possibly Smashville


Pretty much just go to place where Uair string and chain grabs are least effective.

IV. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't: Get lazy with DI, get predictable with recovery, get up aired, let him get his grund game going, or miss a tech chase (c'mon these are so easy). And never get poked through stage by his upB. You'll feel really dumb.
Do: Kill with energem at 80ish, pressure shield, combo like a badass
Tricks: If his dair trades with your uair/fair you will have almost no endlag and he will have a lot. If you have a jump handy chase him with it.Squirtle use Balloons of Smashville to end withdraw early. It's rare but just watch out.
Tips: When he puts on those squirtle squad glasses break them and call him a ****ing nerd. And take his lunch money.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I can weigh in on squirtle. one of my main training buddies is Dirtboy, so I have some experience. Biggest thing to watch out for is his tech chasing. A good squirtle will grab you, tech chase you offstage, and at that point it can be incredibly hard to get back on. Side-b sweet spotted can be stuffed by grounded bubble, so up-b is your best option off stage. Remember this, if you go below the stage and they're holding the ledge, you're dead. drop ledge > nair WILL kill you. Up -b high if possible, and avoid stages with limited recovery options.

As for dealing with his pressure, its best to just not challenge it sometimes. If its just side-b cross ups, challenge it. If its bubble or cross-up nairs, just get out of there and reset the neutral. Remember, side-b is not safe on shield. Shine will hit him.

Getting in on squirtle is hard, just because he's always moving. You have to predict his movement and stuff it with a dair or bair. once you get a good combo on him, wait to see what he does to escape the pressure. Dirtboy for example likes to side-b out of combos because of the fast start and burst movement. If they like to do that, just try to predict where they'll go and get one or two more hits it.

Any other questions, I have Dirtboy in a Facebook chat all the time. I can always just ask him.

 

[HelloAxi]

I can weigh in on squirtle. one of my main training buddies is Dirtboy, so I have some experience. Biggest thing to watch out for is his tech chasing. A good squirtle will grab you, tech chase you offstage, and at that point it can be incredibly hard to get back on. Side-b sweet spotted can be stuffed by grounded bubble, so up-b is your best option off stage. Remember this, if you go below the stage and they're holding the ledge, you're dead. drop ledge > nair WILL kill you. Up -b high if possible, and avoid stages with limited recovery options.

As for dealing with his pressure, its best to just not challenge it sometimes. If its just side-b cross ups, challenge it. If its bubble or cross-up nairs, just get out of there and reset the neutral. Remember, side-b is not safe on shield. Shine will hit him.

Getting in on squirtle is hard, just because he's always moving. You have to predict his movement and stuff it with a dair or bair. once you get a good combo on him, wait to see what he does to escape the pressure. Dirtboy for example likes to side-b out of combos because of the fast start and burst movement. If they like to do that, just try to predict where they'll go and get one or two more hits it.

Any other questions, I have Dirtboy in a Facebook chat all the time. I can always just ask him.

Would you say my info is accurate?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hey Wolf pack, could you guys tell me a rough idea of the missing MU's in the Community Chart?

 

[Gunslinger]

Squirtle

I. Overview:
Squirtle is a potentially very dangerous character for Wolf players and those inexperienced in the matchup will get demolished by any talented Squirtle. His fantastic linear combo game and strong kill options can be devastating.

Squirtle's Strengths:

• • Strong linear combo game
  • Above average recovery with big hitbox in front of up B
  • Can fairly easily kill at 0 with a throw near ledge like a Puff
  • Very fast when using turnaround mechanics
  • Great tech chase and great pressure
  • Can go suprisingly deep offstage
  • Fair/Nair/Bair will wreck your ****
  • Low traction (Good wavedash, easily edge cancels, etc)
  • Very small ( I think smallest in game) which means he is hard to hit with energem and hard to grab if he crouches.
  • Bubble Beam

Squirtle's Weaknesses:

• • Predictable recovery
  • Good combo weight
  • Fairly light
  • Up B is easily punished if you get behind the hitbox (dair anyone?)
  • Terrible tech rolls
  • You have a better neutral
  • Limited OOS options
  • Low traction (you are safer hitting shield with hard attacks because of how far it sends squirtle away)

Key Points:

• • Squirtles side B (Withdraw) has light armor which means it will ignore lasers
  • Side b also can be used to easily change his momentum. Be wary of him using side b out of hitstun
  • TACUS. Turn Around Cancelled Up Smash. Similar to a DACUS, sqirtle can cancel his turnaround animation into an upsmash. Proficient squirtles can even use Down Smash or Forward Smash out of this with some nifty tech. They can also wavedash and grab out of this. very scary. If you see a squirtle start to retreat from you and hear the sound of him turning around (same sound he makes when he enters the stage) get ready to do a spot dodge. F smash is a mixup he can use during this if he turns it around which can catch you if you spot dodge.
  • Be careful of squirtles Bubble Beam (Down B) this causes tripping when grounded, hits multiple times, cannot be reflected, can stall squirtle in air, is super disjointed, and will gimp you like hes not even trying.

II. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Squirtle's neutral.
  • Squirtle wants to land a couple things on you and has a couple safe tools to do so
  - Be careful of Withdraw. If squirtle hits shield with it he will go behind you and can easily use Bair or Uair if you buffer a grab, dropping shield. These moves can start a tech chase situation which squirtle is pretty good in
  • • TACUS
  -All of these can be very safe for squirtle to use. He can fling himself about 3/4 fd length fast than any other char while charging an smash. This is very dangerous for you... if you don't know about it. If you do know be prepared to react. Shield is often the best and easiest counter to this if the squirtle uses an attack. Most squirtle players will only use an up smash which is probably his worst option on wolf. Up smash has probably around 24 minutes of endlag. Even if you get hit at low percents you have time to tech and shine. At higher percents this could lead into an up air string or fair kill but it's a small window. (Note: If you shield and the upsmash triggers behind you squirtle might be flung off the stage because of his low traction.)​

• • • TACDS

- A great combo start that has three sets of hit boxes. The first two link into the third. The size of the hitbox for the first two hits are one squirtle shell away + one on squirtle himself, and the third has hitboxes two shells away+ one on squirtle. The last hitbox is a solid combo starter for him (but you can tech it)​

• • TACFS

-One of his best kill options on the ground. Low angle and high knockback. Probably the hardest to preform consistently though. Squirtle launches himself forward a pretty decent length too so be careful when trying to shield grab as he may be far out of range by then.​

• Your neutral
  • This should consist of wave dashing back with lasers to create enough distance to react to TAC- stuff.
  • Grabs get you a lot of mileage. His tech roll is atrociously slow and easy to continue a combo with. Up throw works well until ~50% (Play around with this one, they may not react in time and a squirtle above you without a jump is a very good scenario anyways)
  • You get a ton of mileage off of grabs, tech chase situations. Sheik is one of squirtles worst matchups (pre 3.6) so play grabs like a Sheik.

Comboing/Punishing Squirtle:

• • Squirtle is a Lightweight (same weight as sonic, very near Lucas and Roy) which means combos with starting with up throw will fail if he jumps at around 50-60%
  • however your goal should be to keep him in the air because Squirtle has one good move to cover his bottom when above. His Dair is a multihit move that makes his tail invincible. Easy to get around though as it only hits right below him and lasts a long time. Last hit will pop you up. Up Air is a good tool to combat this as it will go through or trade and is wide enough to cover his drift in air. Nair has light armor but that wont stop you.
  • Use dair alot. Again, tech chase is easy. Squirtle dies from dair > fair on many stages at around 90-100
  • Dair >Energem starts at 60%. You will start having to jump at 80% and stops working after 130%.
  • Shine >Energerm starts at 40%, requires full jump at 90, and stops working after 120
  • Energem kills at center stage at 80% (Note that all of this is based on PS2, with max length energem and no DI, rounded to nearest 10%)

• • Punishing squirtle can be hard because of his various momentum shifts, safe moves, armor, and traction. It might take longer than most characters to adapt. You should punish with anything that launches or causes tech chase and just do wolf things from there.
  • Near ledge at around 70-80 use sour fair, land then use bair to kill of sides. Very good mixup.
  • Pressuring his shield is fairly safe. He has short grab range and he is limited to wavedash oos or bair oos if you get behind him which return to neutral or are very slow, respectively.
  • His upsmash oos and upb oos are both around 10 frames before hitbox comes out. UpB is only in front of him as well except on first few frames (Hitbox about two squirtles wide, centered on squirtle).

• • Try to kill squirtle off side by using bair, fair, f smash or d smash. The lower the trajectory the better. if he has a jump he can recovery very easily. If he goes to recover jump over where you predict he will go (ie below sweetspot) and smack him with a dair as he comes up. Be Chillen. He can't recover from those without a jump.
  • Be careful about his side B offstage. It helps him recover, protects from lasers and he can sweetspot ledge with it.
  • He dies off top quicker than most too. Up smash kills with no DI and front hitbox at 100. If they DI well it's about 120 I think.
  • If you land a shine at low percants you can wave dash into an uptilt string and then cntinue with aerials.
  • Learn to dacus. When you get a back throw if squirtle DI's In you regrab. If he DI's out you get a hit with DACUS. Dash attack is less safe and easier to whiff.
  • Squirtle has a hidden move called Aquajet. It activates when you hit up during the beginning frames of his Side B. Treat this like it's a shine and a rest combined. Knockback and speed is similar to a shine but squirtle is helpless afterwards and the detect box is very small like rest, and will kill you off the top at over 100. He also gets a large ledge grab box when this connects all around him. Be careful of this move.
  • Your up air/fair strings are pretty safe because he can't come down easily. SH Uair does NOT reach him when he is crouched. Otherwise it will. At low percents you can get a grab off of it.

Escaping Squirtle's Pressure:

• • Squirtles pressure is very rythmic or very safe.
  • Up close he can hit you with side B and cross up into bair or up air, he can jab up to three times into a grab or use dtilt to poke, and he can use some squirtle tech to slide back while jabbing or dtilting for safety. Much of this can be shield grabbed with good timing. Do not try to grab if he is doing dtilt. He will slide back out of range and punish you. Roll away, or attack first.
  • Many of squirtles combos can be crouch cancelled and you can shine in between them.
  • Shine OOS breaks yu out of his close combos
  • Squirtle has a great crouch cancel game. His dtilt will wreck you at any percent. He gets a lot of mileage from grabs so avoid those like the plague.
  • Many Squirtles use Bubble beam as an approach tool. It's a very good tool because it can cause tripping. Learn to tech trips and jump during the startup of this move. You can't trip while airborne.
  • Squirtle can put out a hitbox with his turnaround when he ges into shell. This is a very low hitbox so angle your shield down. I do not believe you can him if he does this. Wave dash / roll back after he retreats. Be careful because he can cancel the turnaround into a d tilt or a jab. However that tech isn't well known.

• • If Squirtle get's a grab on you at low perents he has only a couple options.
    • If he up throws you can potentially regrab at low percents or begin an up air/ uptilt string.
    • If he does any other throw it's a tech chase situation. Every throw will knock you down at zero.
  • At mid-high percents
    • Squirtle will start mixing in aerials after throws. Up throw leads into a nasty up air string which he can kill off of no problem or straight up fair. All of his aerials are good at killing you after up air except dair, but even with that he can kamikaze you.
    • F throw and B Throw are mainly used to put you towards edge. Don't DI inwards when being thrown off stage because you will eat a fair. This is a mixup for his kill throw which is...
    • D throw. DIing up will allow you to survive this until very high percents. But accidentally DI downwards and you are now dead.
• Brave squirtles will try to kill after an up air string by using Up B. This move kills floaties super early but he can take you pretty close to the upper blast line with ease. You can smash DI out of this before the kill hitbox and punish him because you can land faster.

Edgeguarding Squirtle:

• Be careful of his fast, quickly ending moves while he's off stage. He can kill you while he recovers sometimes. Many squirtles use bubble beam to cover their reentry onto stage. Try to get above this as it is angled downwards. Try to get above his Up B as well and dair him into oblivion or nair kamikaze. Bair him back onto stage if you think you can kill him off of other side. Rar fair works if he is over 115.
• When he uses up B DO NOT be vulnerable on the edge. The hitbox easily covers half the distance of your roll. Shielding it will often give him enough time to fade back to ledge.
• Squirtle has a very long recovery. Avoid stages with big blastzones.
• If you can get under him safely you can use an up air to finish of the job.

Recovering against Squirtle:

• Yikes. Squirtle likes to go deep and can gimp very easily. Try to sweetspot with flash before he can get out to you. Since Squirtle uses turnaround to gain speed and fly off backwards expect Bair from above.
• Cool Squirtles who wear sunglasses will try to side b at you off stage. They are too cool and you should dorp lower so they just SD.
• He can also cover ledge with his multiple sex kicks.
• Beware bubblebeam.
• It's fairly easy to turn your recovery into a kill if you catch him in his second jump with your side b if you two are deep enough. Like I mean max range side b. Recover high as a mixup if he keeps going off stage.
• His Up B is slow. If he is forced to use it you will have enough time to land on stage. You will probably be hit by it's enormous hitbox so prepare to smash di or tech.

Putting it all together: Beat squirtle in neutral with your superior range, lasers, and better grabs.
Punish hard with tech chases and aerial strings. Squirtle get's juggled easily. When he recovers get behind his big hitboxes and wreck shop. If he has you under pressure crouch cancel shine works well. Beware the deadly Uair strings. When recovering watch out for how deep he goes and try to sweetspot fast. Recover on stage if he uses Up B.

III. Stages

• Neutral

Battlefield
YI Brawl

• Counterpicks

PS2 (best spacie stage, squirtle can get caught under stage)
Distant Planet (2nd best)
GHZ (Moving platform saves you from up air strings fairly often + you have better wall jump)

• Bans

Dreamland
Norfair (and anything else with huuuge blast zones. Squirtle has a longer recovery than you.)
FD ( which might as well mean ****in' Duh)
Possibly Smashville


Pretty much just go to place where Uair string and chain grabs are least effective.

IV. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't: Get lazy with DI, get predictable with recovery, get up aired, let him get his grund game going, or miss a tech chase (c'mon these are so easy). And never get poked through stage by his upB. You'll feel really dumb.
Do: Kill with energem at 80ish, pressure shield, combo like a badass
Tricks: If his dair trades with your uair/fair you will have almost no endlag and he will have a lot. If you have a jump handy chase him with it.Squirtle use Balloons of Smashville to end withdraw early. It's rare but just watch out.
Tips: When he puts on those squirtle squad glasses break them and call him a ****ing nerd. And take his lunch money.

So this guide is amazingly awesome and has helped me with my plan against literally the most brainless Squirtle of all time (half of his neutral cc d-tilt). Despite all that I've learned about breaking sunglasses and taking lunch money, I have a few questions. Is there any way to beat Squirtle's d-tilt or is it just something I have to respect? I feel everytime I get into a CC battle, Squirtle wins. Will wavedash back to bait the d-tilt and punishing with f-smash or something work? Also is there any way laser can be shot even lower? Everytime I try to get my space from this annoying little turtle he just crawls under my lasers. Should I just avoid using them completely and focus on dash dancing or is there some sick trick to shooting that tiny turtle? Sorry for asking questions I can probably lab out myself but my Wii is broken and I don't have a PM training partner.

 

[XF_Awkward]

So this guide is amazingly awesome and has helped me with my plan against literally the most brainless Squirtle of all time (half of his neutral cc d-tilt). Despite all that I've learned about breaking sunglasses and taking lunch money, I have a few questions. Is there any way to beat Squirtle's d-tilt or is it just something I have to respect? I feel everytime I get into a CC battle, Squirtle wins. Will wavedash back to bait the d-tilt and punishing with f-smash or something work? Also is there any way laser can be shot even lower? Everytime I try to get my space from this annoying little turtle he just crawls under my lasers. Should I just avoid using them completely and focus on dash dancing or is there some sick trick to shooting that tiny turtle? Sorry for asking questions I can probably lab out myself but my Wii is broken and I don't have a PM training partner.

wouldn't CC fsmash force a knockdown in that situation? Also, Softie was mentioning in the Skype group that you can hit crouching kirbys with lazer if you just shoot them later, farm from impossible and worth putting the effort into if you're having difficulty in the matchup.

 

[HelloAxi]

So this guide is amazingly awesome and has helped me with my plan against literally the most brainless Squirtle of all time (half of his neutral cc d-tilt). Despite all that I've learned about breaking sunglasses and taking lunch money, I have a few questions. Is there any way to beat Squirtle's d-tilt or is it just something I have to respect? I feel everytime I get into a CC battle, Squirtle wins. Will wavedash back to bait the d-tilt and punishing with f-smash or something work? Also is there any way laser can be shot even lower? Everytime I try to get my space from this annoying little turtle he just crawls under my lasers. Should I just avoid using them completely and focus on dash dancing or is there some sick trick to shooting that tiny turtle? Sorry for asking questions I can probably lab out myself but my Wii is broken and I don't have a PM training partner.

I'm not particularity good at my laser game so take this with a grain of salt. I think the lasers are for the most part useless against him in the normal way. His small box is hard to hit and his light armor on crawl attack and turnaround and nair (etc) ignore it. They have some uses if you're good at using them to continue combos and i have found that the best level to fire them it is platform height. In my experience squirtles love platform movement and their hop is about that height. Its great at interuptin aerial approaches and limiting him to ground options. Now onto that. Squirtles ground game jouls be respected because he has 2 standard poke options and 2 pokes that put him behind you. Thes are his turnaround (shellshift), and dtil, then his side b and crawl attack (respectively). You can easily differentiate by sound. If you end up in a crouch cancel fight you can go for dtilt but he will out damage and then launch you which can easily be fatal. I've found that dsmash and fsmash are excellent at combating this. Shine is a good option if he is using the non crouch pokes. Wave dashing back oos is good too because his hitbox is so small. He can catch you if he anticipates it but it will mode likely reset to neutral. A slow shine oos (where you activate shine off ground) is actually handy too as you can use second jump to retreat to platform to ether side of you (preferably behind you) or drop on him with an aerial (definitely cross up).

Oh and thanks:D

 

[Gunslinger]

I'm not particularity good at my laser game so take this with a grain of salt. I think the lasers are for the most part useless against him in the normal way. His small box is hard to hit and his light armor on crawl attack and turnaround and nair (etc) ignore it. They have some uses if you're good at using them to continue combos and i have found that the best level to fire them it is platform height. In my experience squirtles love platform movement and their hop is about that height. Its great at interuptin aerial approaches and limiting him to ground options. Now onto that. Squirtles ground game jouls be respected because he has 2 standard poke options and 2 pokes that put him behind you. Thes are his turnaround (shellshift), and dtil, then his side b and crawl attack (respectively). You can easily differentiate by sound. If you end up in a crouch cancel fight you can go for dtilt but he will out damage and then launch you which can easily be fatal. I've found that dsmash and fsmash are excellent at combating this. Shine is a good option if he is using the non crouch pokes. Wave dashing back oos is good too because his hitbox is so small. He can catch you if he anticipates it but it will mode likely reset to neutral. A slow shine oos (where you activate shine off ground) is actually handy too as you can use second jump to retreat to platform to ether side of you (preferably behind you) or drop on him with an aerial (definitely cross up).

Oh and thanks:D

Thanks man this helps a lot. I noticed that Oksas rarely uses lasers in the MU. The idea about platforms is really smart, when I can finally fight a Squirtle that actually utilizes good movement I'll definitely try it out. Thanks for the info on Squirtle's crazy options and how to deal with CC, now I finally know what to look out for.

 

[HelloAxi]

https://youtu.be/3AMQUy949uc
Decent squirtle/wolf match that I commentated on.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Wolf winning)


+3:
+2:
+1:

0:

-1:
-2:
-3:

?:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? How about the missing matchups? (EDIT for readibility)

 

[Xcite]

I'm surprised about your opinion on the Lucario MU. Why do you think wolf has a disadvantage?

 

[Kneato]

I don't. I'm trying to update the slightly outdated community matchup chart.

 

[Taytertot]

so i know you guys were talking about the roy mu a while ago and i hate to bring it back up, but as a roy main i having trouble against wolf (or more accurately, i played a tourney where one of the better players in washington showed up and destroyed me in this mu.) What should i be doing to deal with laser approaches because i tried clanking, shielding and just dashing away and each put me in a bad spot.

If i clanked or shielded the laser then id eat the incoming crossup nair, which would turn into shine > juggle for a crap ton of damage and stage positioning. If i just dashed away then he'd just keep lasering me towards the ledge and obviously thats terrible for roy. So i guess im curious what tools you guys find most annoying from roy in neutral and what can i do to mitigate laser camp/approaches?

 

[Mechaglacier]

how does the wolf-mew2 mu go

 

[Nohbl]

Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Wolf winning)


+3:
+2:
+1:

0:

-1:
-2:
-3:

?:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? How about the missing matchups? (EDIT for readibility)

I think Mario and Falco could be even with Wolf, as stated here, though I'm sure that's not the mainstream opinion these days.

I think Jigglypuff might be at least a +1 matchup for Wolf, because getting in is very hard, and though it is hard to combo Jigglypuff, killing her with Wolf's power might not be so much of a chore. I do not know for sure.

I'd say a case could be made for Peach being up against Wolf.

how does the wolf-mew2 mu go

Switch versus Fuzz at Bigger Balc. Wolf gets combo'd into edgeguarded.

 

[Nohbl]

I think Wolf loses to Mario.

 

[Taytertot]

wow i didnt know people still visited the PM boards at all.

most if not all of these opinions have likely changed over the course of wolf's meta development, but im fairly certain that wolf doesnt lose any mu in the game. there might be some even mus for him but laser is a strong enough tool due to wavelanding out of it that wolf's neutral is able to get around any other character. his punish game seems similarly strong even on floaties because his setups into sideB are so free.

characters like mario and peach my seem like they do well because of how easy wolf is to combo but im fairly certain wolf has zero to deaths on them as well, though the leniency of wolfs inputs are significantly more strict in order to do so.

 

[Nohbl]

wow i didnt know people still visited the PM boards at all.

most if not all of these opinions have likely changed over the course of wolf's meta development, but im fairly certain that wolf doesnt lose any mu in the game. there might be some even mus for him but laser is a strong enough tool due to wavelanding out of it that wolf's neutral is able to get around any other character. his punish game seems similarly strong even on floaties because his setups into sideB are so free.

characters like mario and peach my seem like they do well because of how easy wolf is to combo but im fairly certain wolf has zero to deaths on them as well, though the leniency of wolfs inputs are significantly more strict in order to do so.

Mario's combo weight is such that he falls out of many characters' combos, including Wolf's, fairly easily. And he becomes harder and harder to combo as his percentage climbs, until eventually, stray, weak hits just keep sending him far off stage, from which he can easily, always recover. Wolf indeed has kill blows on Mario but aside from throw into Wolf Flash, I don't think he has too many combos at Mario's higher percents, which means he has to get stray kill hits like sweetspot fair, which aren't a cakewalk.

Wolf's Blaster does give him one of the easiest and most dominant neutral games in Project M, but its utility is entirely horizontal. Much like Falco, the opponent can merely take the high ground and avoid them, something Mario especially does well do to the trajectory of his projectile, which goes at a downward angle when airborne but still covers a good amount of horizontal distance when bouncing, making it a powerful counter tool in his own neutral against Wolf. Not only that, but once you get the accuracy of the Pill (I use the Dr. alt) down, it becomes fairly easy to snipe characters off stage with it, including Wolf, who's recovery suffers a lot when hit by it. Unlike Falco however, Wolf has an upair with a large hitbox, so he isn't as defenseless against approaches from above.

And as you already know, he's pretty easy to combo relative to the other cast. In addition, his recovery can be predictable in lots of situations, and with Cape, Pill, and his fall speed + recovery options + bair, Mario has far more edgeguarding tools than most other characters in the game, which significantly improves his matchup against Wolf.

In my opinion, it depends on the stage and the habits of the Mario player how far Mario can push his dominance against Wolf. The way Mario players like Gallo play and stage select gives Wolf players like Switch the advantage.