Will we need multiple tier lists?

[Strider755]

I've been playing competitively for 8 months now, and I've noticed that the meta shifts immensely when customs are allowed. Therefore, I am starting to think we will need TWO tier lists: one for vanilla characters, and one for customs. Any thoughts?

 

[DeathlyFerret]

I agree... Palutena's customs shoot her up at least 2 tiers.

 

[Zelder]

Based on my calculations, we'll need...18 tier lists. Yep.

 

[LightLV]

Well, yes, you'd need a different tier list if you're literally changing character's movesets around.

 

[1FC0]

We also may need a third and fourth tier list if we are going to enable equipment.

 

[ShortcutButton]

No... we won't. What we can do is not do a non-customs tier list. Are there any major tourneys that still wont use customs?

 

[NouveauRétro]

We also may need a third and fourth tier list if we are going to enable equipment.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO!
Unless you meant SLHG, then still no because I don't think that's gonna catch on enough.

Anyway...
We 'gon need a doubles tier list though bc of strong-ass gimmicks.
SSS-tier:(Hooray not C-tier!)
S for Supporter tier:

 

[DeathlyFerret]

Based on my calculations, we'll need...18 tier lists. Yep.

Already on it.
Tier List #14 -- Pre-Balance Patches (Based on tournament results)
S tier:
A tier:
B tier:
C tier:
D tier:
G tier: (Everyone else)

 

[Strider755]

Why would we need a tier for equips? I remember seeing some tourneys that didn't do customs, so that tier will be necessary.

 

[David Viran]

No... we won't. What we can do is not do a non-customs tier list. Are there any major tourneys that still wont use customs?

My scene (Michigan) are pretty anti customs and never use them. Alot of high level players are anti custom too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If both metas are strong enough, then yes, we may need two. If more metas surge and become dominant, we may need more. As of right now, Custom is pretty solid on its own while vanilla is the most popular, so there would be a list for each.
Then again, there will likely be a new patch along with Lucas.

 

[1FC0]

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO!
Unless you meant SLHG, then still no because I don't think that's gonna catch on enough.

You did not understand me.

 

[Aurora2698]

While this would mean that we'd end up with four tier lists (puke) I get the feeling it'd be necessary to also have separate tier lists for SSB3DS and SSBU. I feel as if the smaller screen and 'different' buttons etc. would impact, if only slightly, on the viability of some characters. This is assuming anybody actually considers the former viable to played competitively, of course.

I can't see equipment ever becoming a thing.

 

[NouveauRétro]

You did not understand me.

ORLY?
What could allowing equipment mean then?

 

[Raijinken]

Why should we keep a tier list involving sub-optimal character versions? If customs stick around (I hope they do, but they may not) and become the dominant metagame, then a no-customs tier list is like a For Glory tier list - entirely irrelevant, if fun to theorize over.

And if they fade out, then there opposite - a customs tier list would mostly serve to say "Yeah, I wish Palutena was this good, but it never caught on," and otherwise mean nothing.

 

[TriTails]

I think we will need two tier lists. Customs on and off, even if the former is taking the whole stage from the latter. Simply because you can enter a custom tourney and not use customs. The vice-versa cannot be said to customs off tourneys.

And equipment's way too random IMO.

 

[1FC0]

ORLY?
What could allowing equipment mean then?

I never said that equipment would be allowed in mayor tournaments nor did I say that we may need extra tierlists for equipment. I just want to point that out to be clear.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Why should we keep a tier list involving sub-optimal character versions? If customs stick around (I hope they do, but they may not) and become the dominant metagame, then a no-customs tier list is like a For Glory tier list - entirely irrelevant, if fun to theorize over.

And if they fade out, then there opposite - a customs tier list would mostly serve to say "Yeah, I wish Palutena was this good, but it never caught on," and otherwise mean nothing.

I think the paradigm that there can only be one is ultimately old-fashioned. There can only be one ruleset per tournament, and maybe the big internationals will have a preference, but I don't think it's terrible that regions differ as long as everyone understands that they may have to adjust for EVO or APEX.

The attempt to homogenize all rulesets came from an era of Smash where the internet was still in its infancy and the Smash world was not connected like they are today. Trying to bring these tiny groups of people together under one banner was necessary for the survival in the game. In this day and age, I almost feel like trying to do the same thing could be catastrophic for the survival of the game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Two Tier Lists would be more than enough, and indeed, Customs need to be taken into consideration heavily. As there will be major tournaments hosting both Custom tourneys and Non-Custom tourneys.

Characters I think will benefit most from the Custom Tiers are:

 

[Raijinken]

I think the paradigm that there can only be one is ultimately old-fashioned. There can only be one ruleset per tournament, and maybe the big internationals will have a preference, but I don't think it's terrible that regions differ as long as everyone understands that they may have to adjust for EVO or APEX.

The attempt to homogenize all rulesets came from an era of Smash where the internet was still in its infancy and the Smash world was not connected like they are today. Trying to bring these tiny groups of people together under one banner was necessary for the survival in the game. In this day and age, I almost feel like trying to do the same thing could be catastrophic for the survival of the game.

I disagree, largely because in my experience (largely with online gaming), splitting rulesets/modes and having different standards of competition is catastrophic for the scene at large. While one may certainly live on as a "side event", if Evo runs customs and Apex runs not (or any other similarly disparate ruleset), you split the community, generate extra hostility, and it becomes very hard to maintain a ruleset.

If there are multiple rulesets run "at large," so to speak, you leave room for people to be picky. I, for instance, am currently only interested in watching or attending tournaments running custom moves and diverse stagelists, because I know those events exist. While I'd like to wish not everyone is as picky as I am, I know a large portion of the playerbase scoffs at customs and thinks they're a joke - odds are good they're as picky as I am and don't want to watch something they view as "jank" and "uncompetitive." With a single ruleset, regardless of what that ruleset is, you force people to live with it or play another game. Ultimately, I think a smaller community would be preferable to a split community.

 

[Strider755]

Two Tier Lists would be more than enough, and indeed, Customs need to be taken into consideration heavily. As there will be major tournaments hosting both Custom tourneys and Non-Custom tourneys.

Characters I think will benefit most from the Custom Tiers are:

As a Charizard main, I know for a fact that Charizard benefits heavily from customs due to Dragon Rush. I've also seen Ganondorf, DK, and Sheik work well with them as well.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Anything over two would be unnecessary, because the two sides are customs on vs customs off. The first official Smash4 tier list will still take months more to solidly produce, and two would make it even more difficult to place characters appropriately. Due to the great divide of customs on/off, I think vanilla will probably come out first. It will be a much different tier list for customs on as some characters can shoot up the tiers (Miis, etc.).

 

[JRT Koopa]

Two tier lists are good enough. There are custom moves that make some characters more powerful but other moves can make mid- and low-tier characters in vanilla more viable.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Can't believe I forgot to mention Paletuna...

 

[Dapplegonger]

I never said that equipment would be allowed in mayor tournaments nor did I say that we may need extra tierlists for equipment. I just want to point that out to be clear.

But you did though. You literally said

We also may need a third and fourth tier list if we are going to enable equipment.

The way I interpret that is that we may need extra tierlists for equipment. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

[LightLV]

Why on earth would you need more than 2 tier lists. One including customs, one omitting customs.

 

[Doruge]

It will be a much different tier list for customs on as some characters can shoot up the tiers (Miis, etc.).

Miis aren't affected by customs being on or off. If a custom-off tier list forces Miis to use 1111, the list doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

 

[1FC0]

But you did though. You literally said



The way I interpret that is that we may need extra tierlists for equipment. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

I think that I was not clear enough but I meant that IF we use equipment THEN we may need a third or fourth tierlist. Obviously I did not mean to imply that equipment will be enabled in any major tournament. That would be crazytalk!

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's what we really do need tier lists for:

Super Smash Bros. Wii U
Super Smash Bros. 3DS
Customs Wii U
Customs 3DS
For Glory

Now, the reason I separate both the Wii U and 3DS games is because they are both different games, and a lot of techniques performed in the Wii U version, namely buffering with the C-Stick, isn't really present in the 3DS version, giving both games two completely different feels to them. Plus, their stage selections are also very different.

For Glory also needs its own tier list set as it will be the public tier list.

 

[Gawain]

Why even bother with a tier list? It's pretty obvious who is dominant and who is not. The lines get blurred the further down you go from there. Just play whoever you do the best with if you want to win, or whoever you want to play otherwise. Is there really a point in having a tier list? I don't think so.

The only tier lists that matter in other fighting games are the ones that top level players come up with anyways, and even then they usually only talk about there top 8 or so, it's not even really a list.

 

[Dapplegonger]

Why even bother with a tier list? It's pretty obvious who is dominant and who is not. The lines get blurred the further down you go from there. Just play whoever you do the best with if you want to win, or whoever you want to play otherwise. Is there really a point in having a tier list? I don't think so.

The only tier lists that matter in other fighting games are the ones that top level players come up with anyways, and even then they usually only talk about there top 8 or so, it's not even really a list.

Oh my god, why do people bring this **** up every time we talk about making a tier list. It is obvious at this point that the community wants a tier list. Smashers have been coming up with official tier lists at this point since like 2002, possibly earlier, and I think you've probably noticed that Smashers are a pretty stubborn breed. There will be a tier list, that's just a given in this community. It's just a thing that happens.

In fact, I'm going to widen the bar now and tell you this is just a human thing. I feel like numbers and rankings solidify everything for people. That's why there are so many statistics flying around for everything. Hell, in sports, anything that can ever happen and hope to be objectively recorded has a statistic. There are always rankings for which player is the best in the sport. There are rankings for top everything. That's just how the world works right now.

Aside from that, you tell people to just play with whichever character with which you are the best. But if you are referring to the phenomena in which players pick better characters just because they are more dominant, that will happen regardless of the existence of a tier list. People see that a certain character is dominating everything, it's the same as seeing that said character is top tier. Did you notice the rise of the Diddy Kong army before Smash 4 tier lists by top players became a thing? No tier list, yet everyone is still switching to the dominant character. In fact, making a tier list might have the opposite effect. Especially early in the metagame, people can challenge themselves to develop a metagame, or do well with a crappy character.

And finally, it is a good analytical tool. People who research for the purposes of the tier list are often commentators or content producers in the community, and tier lists are a good way to focus on how certain characters fare against each other, which means that we will get possibly more knowledgable commentary or content. On top of that, it helps newer players to learn what are the dominant forces in the metagame, and allows them to focus on learning those matchups early.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not sure how many would be needed with customs. We probably only need two - with or without customs. Some characters definitely benefit from customs (Ike, Ganondorf, Palutena) more than others (Bowser), but you have to wonder how do matchups change as a result. Depending on the matchup, I don't think they change radically while others do. DK/Wammu/Aang vs. Marth for example becomes easier in DK's favor.

 

[Radical Larry]

Oh my god, why do people bring this **** up every time we talk about making a tier list. It is obvious at this point that the community wants a tier list. Smashers have been coming up with official tier lists at this point since like 2002, possibly earlier,

IGN started the first tier list back in 1999 or 2000, I believe. And it was the original Super Smash Bros. tier list.

 

[Zorai]

No we don't, because customs are going out the window the moment EVO is over.

If you think otherwise, lmfao

 

[Dapplegonger]

No we don't, because customs are going out the window the moment EVO is over.

If you think otherwise, lmfao

You seem awfully sure about this. Customs are riding on the success of EVO, but that doesn't automatically mean customs are out of everything from here on out. If EVO does well, chances are we will see more custom tournaments in the future. We might see a divide into two different metagames, but there is still a good chance that custom tournaments will still be held in the future. We saw two completely different metagames during the first couple years of Melee as well (items vs no items) as well as a complete lack of an organized ruleset for a long time, with today's current stage list only coming to be nearly ten years after Melee's release. Brawl barely has a unified ruleset, and it's been around for seven years now. Customs probably will be in the same boat, along with stock count, time limit, stage list. People will argue nonstop for their side, but if history is any indication, there will be completely different rulesets for years to come.

 

[LightLV]

No we don't, because customs are going out the window the moment EVO is over.

If you think otherwise, lmfao

Yeah, i don't know about that. I spoke with a tournament host at a local one day, and we had a lengthy conversation about why customs were even considered in the first place.

Basically, they (being EVO, or whomever came up with the decision) predicted that Smash 4 would pretty much already be figured out by EVO and isn't nearly hype enough on its own merits GAMEPLAY wise (basically another metaknight-dominated Brawl), so customs were included to shake up the nearly-already-established meta with some hopes that it would add some variety to the game.

So if Smash 4 is even slightly hype at EVO, it's unlikely they'll go back to vanilla character limitations. And I honestly don't blame them.

 

[dav3yb]

You could also potentially have tier lists for things like for glory too, since there's no real variance in the levels, some characters will have a lot more advantage in FG.

But probably one for customs and no customs, because a lot of characters get some much needed tools to combat other characters when customs get thrown into the mix.

 

[ShortcutButton]

Tier List's are competitive resources, right? They should be used to decide who is the best in a tournament setting? This ringing a bell to anyone? Are people seriously considering making a tier list for a near-useless target practice wrapped as competitive gameplay?

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I say yes; we should have a customs tier and a non-customs tier. The differences between the two will be severe. No sense grouping them together.