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Will Quads be a thing?

Zorcey

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May 12, 2015
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I could only find footage of a single 4 v 4 tournament - one almost immediately following the release of the WiiU version. I understand there were mixed reactions to it as a division, due to it being so hectic. While I can't contest that point, it also seemed to me like Quads could develop a fascinating strategic metagame if given a chance by players, so I've been disappointed to find that it hasn't developed into much.

Do you believe Quads has any future in the competitive scene?
 

Zorcey

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It's really a logistical thing. Can you imagine even a 32 team bracket of 4v4?
Well, if you had a setup where every match in a bracket could be done at once, and assume a set of Quads takes 30 minutes, (best of 3, 10 minute timer?) a 32 team tournament would take less than 3 hours to complete - which is respectable, as 128 competitors is a fair size. I wouldn't ever think to see Quads at something as large as EVO, if that's what you're wondering.
 

smashbro29

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Well, if you had a setup where every match in a bracket could be done at once, and assume a set of Quads takes 30 minutes, (best of 3, 10 minute timer?) a 32 team tournament would take less than 3 hours to complete - which is respectable, as 128 competitors is a fair size. I wouldn't ever think to see Quads at something as large as EVO, if that's what you're wondering.
As it is doubles is slow because getting 2 people to show up when called is hard.
 
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Dsull

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i could see so many teams back off because someone didnt show. I imagine it would take forever to do the tournament since even 2v2s take awhile.

Quite frankly i hate team gameplay. 1v1 or FFA, even in 8player mode. The game feels like its just not meant to be in teams so some wonky things tend to happen.
 

C0rvus

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There are no quads or even doubles near enough to me, though I am a big fan. Personally, I think 3v3 may be the way to go. Slightly less chaotic but still a new dynamic with lots of room for team building. I just hope most teams don't end up using bucket filling strategies. GnW and Shiek is so braindead that it hurts variety in team thus far in Smash 4.
 

deepseadiva

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Ahem they are called Squads

They don't seem very competitive, but that may just be our current impression. Especially how 3v3 seems equally unexplored. If anything they're super fun and a great way to pull in casual players like Amiibo tournaments.
 

Raijinken

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I'd like to see them, but can't see it catching on. I think I'd also rather see 3v3 since it seems a little more tactical and a little less cheesy.

The general requirement for two Gamecube adapters is a bit of a kink in the plan, too.
 

Smasher89

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2gcadapters has way better odds supporting 4 players per adapter compared to 2, its by far the fastest format in the game, and definitly has the most depth, i mean even wft might get some use of healing strategies in this.
 

LightLV

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no. planning nightmare, and though it'd be interesting to see what meta would form from the setup, it would probably be so exclusive that it'd never even get off the ground. Again, because it's a planning nightmare.
 

Mizzy Moe

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Ahem they are called Squads
^this

seems fun ive watched a few tournaments with squad battles only one that comes to mind is the one with pinkfresh though.

i would love to try it out with a good squad even though it seems very hard to keep up even while not playing it XD

i lose myself in doubles sometimes none the less double the amount of people on screen XD
id probably just have to pull out the charizard just so i can tell who i am :p
 

A Rogue Cop

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I remember watching a few of these earlier this year but it seems that nobody has uploaded any new matches. I think it's enjoyable because of the dynamic of guarding your teammates while they set up a killing move (usually G&W or villager shenanigans), but I understand that 1v4 or 1v3 situations are much less likely to be turned around compared to 1v2.

Did the idea just lose popularity because it's difficult to track what's going on? Or are there still some people doing it?
 
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kenniky

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I believe there is a recurring tournament in Australia that does quads regularly, from what I've heard. That's the only instance I know of, though, besides the Xanadu one-shot.
 

Kurri ★

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I'm sure there are people doing it, but yeah, they lost popularity because they're difficult to set up and keep track of.
 

oldkingcroz

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Yeah, I can't focus when there's 8 characters on screen. Not really he mode for me.

It's a great concept that no other fighting game has, and it is perhaps the most player friendly mode for friendlies. 8 dudes/ dudettes on one system means nobody is left out when there's only a few systems. The strategy aspect and ability for crews to fight crews all at once are great, too. Who knows where they will go?
 

AlvisCPU

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@ AlvisCPU AlvisCPU

sorry to bring you out of the Shulk boards lol
Where am I? What is this place? There's no Monado...?
Oh well. Good thing I'm 'ere? ... No? Anyone?

Anyway, yes - my area has been turning 4v4 into a regular thing.
I can't write much right now, but when I return I'll write up a big post explaining what we do (ruleset-wise), reasons for doing such things, links to a couple of videos from the first one we did, and my thoughts on 4v4 becoming "a thing".

Edit to avoid double-post:
Yeah, so I'm one of the TOs for my region and after winning participating in a 4v4 tournament, we wanted to run some more of them. We did a few, to "test the waters", sort out the logistics and structure, and they're worked into the regular local schedule now.
  • 2 stock, 6 minutes (3 stock 8min if time allows.)
  • Best of 3, Double Elimination. BO5 Winner's/Loser's/Grand Finals. Although, we'll go Round Robin if the numbers are low (with about 7-10 teams per event, it's often RR.)
  • No items
  • Friendly Fire on
  • No Customs (because of the logistics of using public venue Wii Us)
  • 1111 Mii Fighters are allowed
  • In each round, no team may have two of the same character. For example, two players may choose Pit and Dark Pit, but cannot both choose Pit. This is to prevent people going stupid with frustrating strategies. It wouldn't be much fun if Villagers start Pocketing each others trees or if G&W's are turning the stage into an oil field.
  • If one team is missing a player, they may enter a non-amiibo CPU character as a teammate. This helps out those teams that struggle to find a fourth slot, so it does help attendance numbers.
  • Winners are decided by the decision the game makes. So Sudden Death may play out.
Starters
  • Big Battlefield
  • Windy Hill Zone
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Pyrosphere (remember, no stage hazards here in 8P Smash.)
Counterpicks
  • Castle Siege
  • Temple
  • Battlefield( / Miiverse if it's allowed in 8P?)
  • Norfair
  • Smashville
  • Town and City
  • Omega Stages
I dunno if Dream Land can be chosen in 8P Smash but we'll probably make it a counterpick if given the option.

Stage striking
  • Winner of Rock Paper Scissors bans one starter, losers ban two, winners choose the stage.
  • For each of the following rounds, the winning team bans 3 stages from Starters and Counterpicks, losers choose. Standard stuff.
A team cannot choose a stage they have already won on, unless their opponents agree.
This is something that has mixed responses, but is generally received positively. Your initial response is probably what mine was - "What the hell? What's wrong with you? Why? Did you take a blow to the head? Did Sheik dthrow-uair you one too many times?"

With the nature of having 8 Players, it's not hard to imagine that some players will try to take advantage of some pretty cheesy strats. G&W Oil Panicking, Villager Pocketing huge projectiles. So, if you notice in Round 1 that Ness and Samus like to sneak away from the battle and heal up, and you really don't want to deal with that ****, then you can solve the problem by banning Ness from the upcoming round. However, this will also ban Ness from your own team as well as the opponent's. Don't want to tempt fate against Game & Watch? Ban him, as long as you don't mind losing him from your own team. The other team just happened to have some amazing Falcon player that was destroying stuff in the match? Then you can Falcon Punch him right out of the next round.
Overall I think this keeps things pretty healthy. The impact of removing a character isn't as significant doing this in Singles and Doubles. If you have to move to a character you know less about, the rest of the team is still using their mains and can hold the line - the loss isn't as significant as it'd be in 1v1/2v2. And it prevents the OP kinds of strategies you'd be dreading in this kind of format.

Character bans do not take place in Round 1.
In each of the following rounds, the winning team may ban one character from the round. Afterwards the losing team bans two. This takes place before stage banning.
This was the very first "Squaddles" tourney in our area. (Wow, that "CLB" guy sure is a good player. I wonder who it could possibly be? :troll:) It was not run by myself and the local Smash community, but by another group - as such, the current rules and setup are a bit different to what's going on here. We're still getting the stream up and running for Smash 4, but we'll (probably) stream all our events once the system gets set up.
Winners Finals
Losers Finals
Grand Finals
Grand Finals Bracket Reset

Winner's Final might be the best one, in my opinion (though you'll have to excuse the menu time in that one in particular (and I have no idea who picked regular Battlefield but it's a horrible stage for 8P)). I also think it's more fun to play than to watch - but do try to watch these through, maybe following certain characters around in the mayhem. Hopefully you can see some of the little details amidst the chaos.
As a format, the biggest question that gets asked is "Is this as chaotic as it looks?" The answer is... yes. Absolutely. It's nuts. It doesn't exactly feel that way when you're playing, though. I feel communication between the team becomes all the more important. Being able to call things like "Sheik's on high percent, kill her now", or "Don't worry, we still have the stock lead", or "Yo, I'm ready to PK Magnet, heal me up", or even stuff like "We're on Temple, don't go in the cave like I just did because Ike and Mario are just sitting there waiting to combo you into oblivion", has a pretty big impact. You can somewhat direct the team to act in a certain way or to achieve small victories rather than just flailing wildly and hitting anything that doesn't match your team colour. There have been a few times where someone's gone "____ is at kill percentage" when I'd not even realised - so as a Shulk player, I'd (apprehensively) flick to Smash and get the job done.

Naturally, you don't really need to communicate if you all just outplay them, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it's been a huge help at times.

As with Doubles, keeping a wider field-of-view on things is pretty important. If someone's getting 2v1'd, you'll want to go and get those players off your teammate's back. At the same time you don't want to fsmash someone and then realise your teammate was fast-falling in for the hit, killing your teammate and not the enemy.

Above all, it's insanely fun. Teaming up with your friends to take on all these other teams of Smashers feels awesome. We've only run ~4 or so events so far, but I've already bore witness to so many hype moments.
  • Wii Fit Trainer going 1v4... and winning!
  • Greninja fsmash -> Shulk accidental footstool -> Mewtwo Shadow Ball -> KO true combo.
  • Ally low% Greninja accidentally recovery Shadow Sneaking into enemy high% Ganondorf's recovering side-B. Ganoncide starts, ally Ness reacts and PK Fire's them out of it.

Will 4v4 ever be a thing?

Honestly... I'm hopeful. I like to think that if I show this format off to enough people it can gather a bit of a following. At the same time, I'm a realist. The Smash community hates fun hates anything different is apprehensive when it comes to new things and unless it's ultra-competitive, it gets left by the wayside. I've heard it said that Melee is about technical skill, whilst Smash 4 is more about mindgames and punishes. I think that within Smash 4, Singles revolves around those mindgames and punishes, whilst Squads/Quads/Squaddles/WhateverWe'reCalling4v4 revolves around communication and strategising. However, as the number of remaining players drop, it moves more towards 1v1 when you need to be more reliant on playing smart, and tricking your opponent into doing something unsafe. So there's an interesting mix that varies over the course of the match.

Should 4v4 be considered a serious event like Singles and Doubles? Yeah.
Can we convince the majority of the Smash community of this? I wish.
  • My first thought is to say "Read the long version damn it I spent forever writing that it's like 1:30AM now you little-"
  • Less chaotic than it looks. But... pretty close.
  • Communication can be gamechanging. Work together for small victories. With so much going on, it's easy to lose track of the flow of the battle, so even saying "Yo, we should kill Dr. Mario, I just noticed he's on 146%" can be really helpful.
  • Ensuring you pay attention to your surroundings is very useful not just for seeing enemy positions and intentions, but for not killing your teammates.
  • This is more fun than it has any right to be.
  • It does have competitive value. Though I think convincing the Smash community to adopt this format to the same standards they do Singles and Doubles will be an uphill struggle.
This has the potential to become a thing - players just need to let it, in my opinion.

Second edit:
Now that I'm less tired and had some time to reflect on what I've said, it's worth noting that while I believe 4v4 does have some interesting competitive elements and certainly has merit, it isn't comparable to the "competitiveness" of Singles and Doubles. I really hope this becomes a regular thing at big events, even just as a side event if anything.
 
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Teh Sandwich

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
145
Squads is so hype. My state just had a major smash 4 tourney, and 4v4 was an event. We had 12 squads all together I think. I had so much fun strategizing with my crew. There was so much hype I could barely hear myself think when my team was dominating in grand finals.
Pyrosphear is such a sick 4v4 stage also.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
371
@ AlvisCPU AlvisCPU thank you for the excellent contribution. I never considered that CPU characters could be used to fill absent slots, nor the idea of character bans, though both sound like excellent ideas. Should 4v4 ever be adopted popularly, I hope these rules can be worked into the format.
 

PUK

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We play a lot of 4V4 in my place, though not competitively. It's really awesome and definitively something a lot of people i know want to dig into.
 

Kaladin

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It'd be crazily abusable. G&W, MM, Villager, and Sheik. *Nightmare intensifies*

Really, I don't see much of a reason why not. It's an interesting meta, and they worked out the logistics in Sweden, sooooo....
 
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