(Wii U) Why are Pilot Wings, Wuhu Island and Skyloft not legal?

[Vinzan]

What is Stale movement? or something like that

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ Vinzan A Stale Move is a part of the game's engine that lowers the damage and knockback of a move that is used over and over again. It is one way that the game is trying to discourage spamming, since a move that is spammed gets less effective as you spam it. A stale move loses it's negative effect once the spammer connects with another move, so the last thing you want to do when fighting a spammer is to get frame trapped so they can hit you with something else.

 

[Gawain]

Well, to be honest, I feel like we have plenty of stages already. We don't need more. Adding more stages just becomes cumbersome after a point. If it can't replace one of the current stages, it really doesn't need to be there. That's how I see it.

 

[-LzR-]

Well, to be honest, I feel like we have plenty of stages already. We don't need more. Adding more stages just becomes cumbersome after a point. If it can't replace one of the current stages, it really doesn't need to be there. That's how I see it.

We should also remove some characters. What does Zelda add to the game? She is such a cumbersome character.

 

[wizrad]

So I kind of get that Pilot Wings promotes degenerative ("too campy") play and that's bad. But what I don't get is why such degenerative play itself (running the clock? Heavily camping? Never approaching? Running away?) isn't banned.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Running the clock is a viable strategy in certain situations, and though it's boring shouldn't be outright removed. We have some characters that require camping to work (Villager, DHD and anyone that relies on a good ranged game), so it's too much of a grey area to try to limit how a player plays a character without requiring herculean manpower. It is far easier to make it so such tactics have the risk/reward that other actions have, which a smaller stage does provide, than to try and police such a thing. Especially since the terms 'camping' and 'staling' have different limits to different people.

 

[Gawain]

We should also remove some characters. What does Zelda add to the game? She is such a cumbersome character.

Yeah, completely change the meaning of what I said, what a great way to argue a point. You wanna tell me what Wuhu adds that Delfino doesn't? There is no point in increasing the stage list arbitrarily, all it does is make striking take a little longer. We don't need to have more than 10 stages.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah, completely change the meaning of what I said, what a great way to argue a point. You wanna tell me what Wuhu adds that Delfino doesn't? There is no point in increasing the stage list arbitrarily, all it does is make striking take a little longer. We don't need to have more than 10 stages.

It doesn't work like that. Things are banned if they are broken, not because we already have enough something. I could also throw in the we don't need more than 20 characters argument.

 

[Gawain]

It doesn't work like that. Things are banned if they are broken, not because we already have enough something. I could also throw in the we don't need more than 20 characters argument.

You sure about that? Cause that's how it seems to work to me. No one can really say there's much wrong with Wuhu that doesn't also apply to a stage like Delfino or any other transformer, yet it's not legal. The reason is because it doesn't need to be. Different characters bring drastically different things to the gameboard. A stage variation doesn't even come close to doing the same thing. Having more characters doesn't create unnecessary striking time. Having more stages does. I'm just not seeing what having a stage like Wuhu does that something we have right now doesn't already do.

 

[-LzR-]

You sure about that? Cause that's how it seems to work to me. No one can really say there's much wrong with Wuhu that doesn't also apply to a stage like Delfino or any other transformer, yet it's not legal. The reason is because it doesn't need to be. Different characters bring drastically different things to the gameboard. A stage variation doesn't even come close to doing the same thing. Having more characters doesn't create unnecessary striking time. Having more stages does. I'm just not seeing what having a stage like Wuhu does that something we have right now doesn't already do.

What does Dreamland or Miiverse add that Battlefield doesn't already do?

 

[Gawain]

What does Dreamland or Miiverse add that Battlefield doesn't already do?

A question I ask myself too. Now, I'll argue that DL is a little different because the Blast Zones are noticeably smaller and there is the wind effect. It's questionable at best, and I honestly think it just gets grandfathered in from having been a great competitive stage in the other games (and it has objectively great music). Miiverse I don't even know too much about and to be honest have never played a tournament set on it.

 

[wizrad]

Gawain is right guys, so I propose the following changes to the character list:

Banned: Dark Pit, Lucina, Dr. Mario
Questionable: Luigi, Roy, Falco, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Lucas
Legal: the rest

… sorry man, but I had to do it.

 

[Gawain]

Gawain is right guys, so I propose the following changes to the character list:

Banned: Dark Pit, Lucina, Dr. Mario
Questionable: Luigi, Roy, Falco, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Lucas
Legal: the rest

… sorry man, but I had to do it.

Way to not read my post, champ. Character picks don't add unnecessary time. Next time read before you try to make a smarmy remark.

 

[zaiman12345]

Wuhu Island has a walk-off at the point where the Mii plays fetch with the dog, so that's probably why it's banned.
Skyloft also has a walk-off where the sky dock is.
Pilot wings has a transfer to a diffrent plane neat the middle of the sightseeing before it loops. (idk if that's a thing but i think that's why.)

 

[GhostUrsa]

Skyloft is banned at most tournaments because there are a few transitions that will randomly come too close to the island and strike at the stage, KOing anyone in the path. Or where a transition will come close to the waterfall that runs off the island and potentially push someone's recovery away. Walkoffs aren't considered an issue with transition stages due to how short of time there is for the player to have to handle them. (Otherwise, Castle Siege and Delfino would be two stages banned but they are considered counterpicks instead.) I've seen Skyloft as a counterpick at tournaments, so not everyone feels it needs to be removed. (The level transitions have some tells when the stage will strike since it approaches from the background.)

Wuhu I've seen less often on the Tourney circuit, though haven't had the chance to ask more about it. It is larger than Skyloft for the stage's size though not as large as Pilot Wings. Some of the transition locations have some severe limitations that can be annoying (the volcano is the biggest culprit), but I haven't seen any transitions that outright break a match.

Both of those will probably be debated for a while yet before they get a solid "yay or nay' as counterpicks.

Pilot Wings is too large. That seems to be what every TO I've spoken to mentions. Fast players can just avoid confrontation after taking a stock and win the match.

 

[Charey]

The first thing Wuhu does different then Delfino is a flatter and longer main platform which favors different characters. For instance ZSS can much easier use up air strings on Delfino's main layout then in the Wuhu main layout. Most of the stops also favor wide areas as opposed to Delfino's fairly cramped stops.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I often wonder if Wuhu and Pilot Wings were going to originally be designed to be a transition stage that supports 8 player smash, but was cut for some reason. That would explain why it tends to be rather larger than it needs to be.

 

[Gawain]

Wuhu Island has a walk-off at the point where the Mii plays fetch with the dog, so that's probably why it's banned.
Skyloft also has a walk-off where the sky dock is.
Pilot wings has a transfer to a diffrent plane neat the middle of the sightseeing before it loops. (idk if that's a thing but i think that's why.)

Delfino has a few walkoff sections too. I can see why people think it's fine (if Delfino is fine). The only issue I have with the constant stage legality discussions is that a single tournament doesn't need a ton of stages. There's nothing wrong with shaking it up now and then, but keep the list for the tournament small to save time. Stage striking is a consistent time issue.

 

[-LzR-]

Delfino has a few walkoff sections too. I can see why people think it's fine (if Delfino is fine). The only issue I have with the constant stage legality discussions is that a single tournament doesn't need a ton of stages. There's nothing wrong with shaking it up now and then, but keep the list for the tournament small to save time. Stage striking is a consistent time issue.

You guys just keep coming up with whatever excuses possible to play on BF SV FD only. Striking is the least of anyones problems in tournaments. Perhaps if people showed up on time and TOs were more strict, but nah lets cut content instead.

 

[Gawain]

You guys just keep coming up with whatever excuses possible to play on BF SV FD only. Striking is the least of anyones problems in tournaments. Perhaps if people showed up on time and TOs were more strict, but nah lets cut content instead.

I'm not sure why you're saying I'm making up new excuses, this is literally the argument I've been using since I first posted here. Tournaments taking a long time is a combination of many factors, not just one thing. I honestly do not see this as cutting content. I've not seen a real argument to add more stages other then "because". If it's a stage that's just going to get striked anyways it's just a time waster except to service a select few people that would want to play on it. This is even more true in FLSS, since the more stages that players feel they need to strike the less likely they are to use a strike on a stage like Smashville, and therefore the more likely you are to see stages like Smashville.

 

[Charey]

That's backwards, the more stages there are the less likely you are going to end up on one stage all the time like you will with three starters. More stages mean you don't have to give a campy charcter SV because of how easy it is to camp on FD, you can strike towards less camp friendly stages.

 

[Zanarkan]

I feel like the smash scene in general is very anti-change and unwilling to adapt in general. I agree that stages like Wuhu when it had game breaking glitch should have no place in competitive play, however now that it has been fixed, this stage along with others in question like skyloft and pilot wings should be legal. IMO it's these debates and these topics that come up so frequently that are some of the reasons as to why Smash hasn't reached the eSports status that games like LoL, DOTA, and CS. Pro players in these games have to adapt to almost constant changes to their games. League of Legends has big patches on sometimes as often as a bi-weekly basis. Players have to constantly adapt and sometimes their best character gets nerfed and is not competitively viable, and they have only two weeks to master something else in time for their big match next weekend. I know some of you are reading this and saying "BUT SMASH 4 HAS BEEN PATCHED SEVERAL TIMES" and yes you are right and its a wonderful step in the right direction from Nintendo and by those players who embrace and and not just going "well my best character got nerfed guess i can't compete in this game anymore" (yeah i'm looking at you M2K). Adding stages to the competitively legal list should be looked at the same way. Instead of saying "well I hate this stage and the scene knows that so i'm gonna get counterpicked constantly so **** this game" we should adapt to it and put in the time and training to learn match ups on these stages.

At the same time, I'm also a firm believer in different circumstances at different event. I don't think every event should be the same and a lot of this should be left up to the TO's decision. Also, full disclosure, I don't have a local scene around me so I very seldom go to tournaments for Smash 4, so my opinion may be slightly subjective but I know if I were to host local tournaments, these stages would be legal and I would want to go to tournaments that did the same over those that different. Again this is all just in my OPINION, we all have one and you are free and welcome to agree or disagree with mine and feel free to tell me, just do it respectfully and if you have reasons to agree/disagree that actually use logic and common sense (something that is severely lacking in today's society) that is even better!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Gawain

Consider a hypothetical situation where the game has a selection of 20 or more stages to pick from, every single one of which is unique (so no Battlefield/Miiverse duos where they're interchangable) and and competitively valid by whatever standard you choose to apply. Would you still support banning some of them for the sake of a smaller stage list?

 

[Piford]

The problem with banning stages to make a smaller list is there no fair way to determine which stages should be banned.

 

[Gawain]

@ Gawain

Consider a hypothetical situation where the game has a selection of 20 or more stages to pick from, every single one of which is unique (so no Battlefield/Miiverse duos where they're interchangable) and and competitively valid by whatever standard you choose to apply. Would you still support banning some of them for the sake of a smaller stage list?

If I were TOing? Yeah, Id pick a selection from the bunch. Its not "banning", it's just picking the best ones of the lot, that add the most to the game. There is a general agreement about which stages are best. Just use the ones that everyone agrees are good. More is not always better.

 

[Charey]

Making stages that are not legal in a tournament is banning no matter what words you use. More isn't better when you add stages that are not conducive to competition but any stage that has it's own layout and doesn't have any issues worth banning it over adds to the depth of the game. Being similar should only matter if the differences are not enough to change the overall meta of a fight. (Miiverse/Battlefield, FD/Omega)

 

[AoS~Akito]

Pilot wings and skyloft have stage hazards that can kill you if you get knocked into the stage. Wuhu island is banned because its transformations are worst than delphino, also we don't need more than 1 delphino.

 

[UpBforVictory]

First, let's get something out of the way. There is nothing wrong with Wuhu Island.

Nothing.

The stage is an almost completely tame travel stage - think of it as a slightly upsized version of Delfino. There's one tiny glitch on the rarest segment of the stage that is completely trivial to avoid if you know it exists (I have never and will never be hit by it), and beyond that, there is nothing on the stage that even hints at it being random or degenerate. Rulesets that ban Wuhu Island are bad rulesets.

Now, the others.

Pilotwings is a pretty easy ban. It has two phases. The red plane has permanent overhanging ledges, which lead to a very strong defensive position. It's really hard to approach someone through a platform, and if you try to come in from the side on the red plane, they can simply escape to the other side and reset the situation. It's an overcentralizing camping spot. The yellow plane has it even worse - because you can camp on the engines, there's simply no way for a lot of characters to safely attack you at all. The stage encourages degenerative stalling tactics and is completely broken.

Skyloft has a few issues with the stage hitting people. These are semi-random and reasonably predictable, but can be hard to memorize. Essentially, there's really nothing wrong with it, but some people ban it anyways. I've had it legal in my locals with absolutely no problems so far; others have complained about the ground hitting and gimping them when the platform is on the way up; my response to that would be "get on the damn platform then!".

why not ban the glitch like they ban wobbling in some tournaments in melee, its not like it's gonna happen on accedint.

 

[MajorMajora]

The wuhu glitch isn't even in the game anymore.

 

[ZeGlasses!]

Skyloft has parts where the cliffs that you fly by can hurt you, transformations that you can get stuck in as the main platform is lowering down, huge and campy transformations, and variations of the main platform that have platforms that promote circle camping.

Wuhu Island has cliffs that can hurt you as you fly by, numerous transformations with walkoffs, numerous transformations that are campy as hell, and the boat transformation that can kill you(not through the glitch)

 

[Myed]

Not going to comment on Skyloft because i never play it, but it should be mentioned that anything that isnt the platform turns into a hitbox as soon as the 'go up' arrow disappears. This will hit any players still on the transformations

Wuhu Island has cliffs that can hurt you as you fly by,

I think you may have Wuhu confused with Skyloft. I have never seen nor experienced cliffs hurting you in gameplay on Wuhu.

numerous transformations with walkoffs,

Delphino has 5/9 transformations with walkoffs. Wuhu has 3/8. They both fill the same valid niche, so if it came down to a direct comparison Wuhu is much better in this regard.

numerous transformations that are campy as hell,

Because you dont specify specific transformations, im going to assume you're referring to Beach (bigger than Great Cave Offensive width-wise) and Volcano (circle-camping). It should be pointed out that these two never appear in the same cycle and you will only see one every ~min, (Contrary to popular belief, Wuhu's transformations run in set slots, meaning that some transformations will never appear after others [ctrl+f 'Island Tour' for the relevant bit]). and, as is the whole draw to transforming stages, the stage changing every ~10-5 seconds prevents any efficent camping.

and the boat transformation that can kill you(not through the glitch)

It kills you if:
1. You fail to maintain stage control and get thrown out off the platform
2. You're in the water and are too slow to jump out.
3. You're past the edge of the platform, meaning that ~80% of the cast would be unable to recover if it was void anyway
Note that ALL 3 of these things have to happen for it to affect you in anyway. As such, the boat spike is a non-issue.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

You wanna tell me what Wuhu adds that Delfino doesn't?

Gladly.

It changes some matchups relative to the shorter stage areas of Delfino. As a Robin player, there are times where I would much rather take my opponent to Wuhu Island instead of Delfino Plaza. Those times are admittedly somewhat infrequent because usually I like Delfino's platforms and lower ceilings (earlier Levin Sword UAir kills? Sure! I'll go for that!)... but sometimes I like Wuhu Island because it has more length for me to charge Thunder with and not immediately be chased down for it.

Yet I can't run forever, it doesn't have some sort of circular layout.

Also I like fighting on the wood-bridges with gaps on them. Robin likes this terrain layout because it favors some of her best fighting ranges and lets her possibly go for Elwind spikes in some cases.

I don't always go to Wuhu Island, but when playing with friends who are cool with the stage in general I keep it handy as a worthwhile answer to some of Robin's matchups. If I want vertical kills as soon as possible, I go Delfino. If I expect the fight to be more drawn out regardless and want more time to get Thunder charged or fight in terrain layouts I'm more comfortable in, I go Wuhu.

"Wuhu meaningfully impacts my matchup spread" is my answer to what it adds.

 

[chaos11011]

In Smash, every little detail counts. Sure, both Delfino and Wuhu are both transforming stages, but it's all about /the transformations/. You know how both Delfino and Wuhu have platform-less areas? Much like how some characters prefer an Omega stage with walls to be able to give them that option if needed, having both Delfino and Wuhu let me get a custom pick of what FD-like transformation I want. Do I want the slopes on Delfino to help me counter projectile users or am I a projectile user who would prefer Wuhu's flatness? Which defensive transformation fits my character best/hinders my opponent the most? Is it the multitude of walls in Delfino + pillars or the fountain, bridge and volcano in Wuhu? Which touring platforms suit my match up the best? Do I want a larger stage like Wuhu if I see my opponent has a hard time killing compared to me or do I want to try to get earlier kills on Delfino if my opponent's rage is too intimidating? You could also be in a situation where the transformations in one touring stage, while benefiting you, also benefit your opponent just as much despite one or two areas you do extremely well in, so taking them to the other touring stage that benefits you a bit less, but also removes those benefits of the opponent, can be good too. There have been many matches where I'd taken someone to Wuhu because I felt more comfortable in the neutral transformations that didn't benefit me or my opponent and while Delfino also had my share of positives/negatives/neutrals, I felt like my opponent, as a player, had a better grasp of stage control in a neutral area than I did (in this case, it was Robin on the pillars area, as I'm not confident in going for Elwind spikes quite yet, especially when my opponent had spikes of his own).

You could also say the same for Skyloft. It's silly to ban Wuhu and Skyloft because we already having a touring stage in Delfino because that totally ignores the details on what a touring stage does and how it can benefit the game.