why on earth would the aerial forward-b be nerfed?

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

why? any reason? he was already fairly bad as is

 

[Shell]

I'll just explain the changes on this since a lot of people get the same first impression.

It seems nerfed at first when you just look at the distance, I agree.

Aerial side-b has lost its long arcing trajectory, but now has slightly faster startup, faster travel speed, and higher KB, and can be angled up or down.

This is a pretty significant addition to his already complex spacing game, and allows him to land decently high KB punishes in smaller timing gaps. Start playing around with timing Side-B to jet through the endlag on some of Marth's swings to see this in action. Just the ability to land a high KB punish quickly at range adds an element of auto-pressure to him. Auto-pressure, for anyone unaware, is something that forces your opponent to play safer or a little differently just to avoid the -threat- of a well spaced attack, regardless of whether the move is used or not. Think Sheik's dash attack.

Another use is that it can be employed as a finisher in combos, especially in conjunction with the tweaked stats on Fair sweet/sour hits. Fair -> Aerial Side-B is a true combo at a wide range of percents if you land the right Fair hit at the right percent.

Once you get a handle on these aspects I'm confident you'll find aerial Shoulder Bash (which I personally call Shoulder Jet) to be overall much more useful to his game.

Enjoy, and let me know if you have any other questions about it.

 

[Ace55]

Fair -> shoulder jet is too legit! I mean it used to be possible sometimes as a 'dodge this' finisher but now it's actually a legit combo!

Gonna take some time to readjust using it as recovery though, no more bouncing of the wall. I'm calling a smash input version where we get both next update .

 

[The_Guide]

Fair -> shoulder jet is too legit! I mean it used to be possible sometimes as a 'dodge this' finisher but now it's actually a legit combo!

Gonna take some time to readjust using it as recovery though, no more bouncing of the wall. I'm calling a smash input version where we get both next update .

Just to reiterate it , Wario's aerial shoulder bash now auto snaps the ledge like a phantasm. The recovery distance is also only slightly nerfed imo, as he retains more horizontal momentum when it finishes than he did before. Its less, but not that much.. Really fair tradeoff for all the subtle buffs I've been noticing on him, imo.

Also, Mikehaggar, you gotta be tripping. Wario has been a super strong character for a while now. Why do you think he's mediocre?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I dunno about "super strong" character. He's definitely good, but he's got his issues. He's maybe a solid high tier. I'm fine with that, personally. He's good, but he's not overly technical, and not a lot of people are familiar with him.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

so i just did some playing around with the new shoulder jet, and it's actually pretty awesome when used from the ledge. Just ledgedrop, double jump, and sideb just barely above the ledge, and you'll land with a slide similar to a waveland, but longer. I was hoping that it might have hitboxes during the slide, like the crouch canceled grounded slide, but it doesn't. I think it probably just makes you land the same way a wavedash would, but with more momentum, so a longer slide. Trying to figure out if there's any practical application for it.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Finally had a chance to play against other people yesterday. The reduced distance on the shoulder bash is.... truly awful. There's not really any good use for it, as it is. You can try to hit people with it, but using it sacrifices wario's aerial mobility, putting yourself into freefall if you don't hit, and why you ever wanna do that? Wario's whole game is about weaving in and out of your opponents space, throwing out spaced aerials, waiting for an opening to present itself. With shoulder jet... you can't weave back if you miss. It wouldn't be that bad if you could just fastfall it, but it lags SO MUCH on landing. It's literally never safe, ever. Don't ****ing use it. Playing against computers, I didn't realize how unsafe it was, because computers are dumb and aren't very good at punishing. Playing against people, I got ****ed hard every time I used it.

At least with the old one, you could weave away by crossing them up and continue away from them in the opposite direction. It was also long enough that you could recover with it, but that's not the case at all anymore. Even if you do find yourself in a situation where you'd rather recover high, and you're in range to do it, you're GOING to get punished for it, because the landing lag is atrocious.

If shoulder jet's range was improved by even 50% of where it is, I would be happier with my ability to recover. Maybe even doubling it, because seriously, it's short. It also DESPERATELY needs the landing lag to be reduced, no question. As it is, using it is basically just saying "I want you to punish me".

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Joker you should edit your posts so you don't triple post lol, but as of yet, I haven't used wario's aerial side b at all against a competent player. So I can't really agree or disagree with anything you say. Your post reflects a lot of my initial opinion of it the first time I heard of the change, and I honestly hope that its due to maybe a lack of understanding of the move. I plan on going to that low tier city tournament in texas, so I'll eventually get some first hand experience with it and share what I find out....hopefully its something good.

 

[Strong Badam]

wario ditto mm mr pickle? i'll show you the ways of the new air sideb

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Lol strong bad you're everywhere, yeah we can have a tackle off for all the biscuits.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Joker you should edit your posts so you don't triple post lol, but as of yet, I haven't used wario's aerial side b at all against a competent player. So I can't really agree or disagree with anything you say. Your post reflects a lot of my initial opinion of it the first time I heard of the change, and I honestly hope that its due to maybe a lack of understanding of the move. I plan on going to that low tier city tournament in texas, so I'll eventually get some first hand experience with it and share what I find out....hopefully its something good.

The first two were kind of a dumb double post, but the third post was almost a week later. Nobody would see it if I edited it.

And I wanted to think there was some cool new versatility to the new aerial sideb, but it's not there. You can see it for yourself. I did not go into using it with skepticism, I was very optimistic, because outside of recovering, I never used the old aerial sideb. But.. it's still completely useless, AND it's no longer useful for recovery. I preferred it when it was just a recovery tool. At least then it served a use. You could edge-cancel it on platforms and stuff, it was great. The new one... can't do anything even remotely practical.

 

[mYzeALot]

So far I strongly agree that the new one is a nerf with almost nothing for it. I deeply hope that somebody such as Reflex can prove me wrong.

 

[AbstractLogic]

I might be seeing things, but it looks like the knockback is at a better angle than the grounded shoulder bash

 

[mYzeALot]

The aerial side-b has a quicker start up, along with more power and knockback. But it is definitely not worth taking away all of the distance it could cover in the air.

 

[0RLY]

I practiced a lot with the old SB, getting down platform cancels on every stage and I still found it to be not that useful. His new air SB is much better. I love sweetspotting the ledge with it and being able to confidently combo into it. The only loss is that his new SB is easier to be edgehogged against. I am perfectly okay with this since I can play around this with my up-b instead.

Anybody who complains of the loss in distance can just eat a charged fsmash on landing/wallbounce.

 

[Shadic]

It would be nice if we didn't have an abundance of these topics where people jump to large balance conclusions because their one use of a move doesn't work quite as well as it used to, while the OP completely ignores the additional functionality provided by the tweak.

Oh well.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I guess it's just a matter of seeing someone else use it correctly or someone who at least understands the new move

I for one think that it's a better trade-off, although after playing alot with friends and what-not the landing lag truly is horrible, even if it's meant as a combo finisher or a good punish tool, it doesn't seem to make up for the consequences, it doesn't have to be safe or anything, but it's still very risky to use, like wolfs flash for example, and even then wolf's flash has like 3-4 different angles and can be shortened and it's an effective recovery tool, wario now only has one way to recover, i guess that's the price for the amazing air mobility

oh well, hope reflex can prove us all wrong

 

[Comeback Kid]

Wario's recovery tools have unusually bad landing lag compared to other characters.

It makes sense to want at least one reliable option with more reasonable lag attached to it, even if it ends up just being able to act out of Up B slightly faster.

 

[Strong Badam]

so yeah it's worse, right mr. pickle?

 

[AbstractLogic]

When the Fly vs Reflex set is uploaded, I encourage people to watch it because there were some VERY smart uses of the aerial side-B.
Btw, shoutouts to Mr.Pickle for having possible the most troll/stylish wario I've ever seen in person.

 

[DMG]

Wario Side B great for combos, worse for recovery now. That's it in simple words.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I like the changes. It is a much more useful move now, but it definitely needs at least one little buff.

Being able to airdodge out of an Aerial SideB would fit well with Wario's other tricks and gimmiks. It would make it much safer to use, without taking away its inherent risks. Maybe not having the ability to IMMEDIATELY airdodge out of it, but rather after 25-75% of the animation passes.

Less landing lag, or maybe a smidgen bit more range would also be nice to see. But only one of the three things I mentioned would be enough. Having all three at once would be overkill.

 

[AbstractLogic]

Wavelanding a low aerial side-B sounds fun

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Wavelanding a low aerial side-B sounds fun

Precisely.

 

[Nausicaa]

Wavelanding a low aerial side-B sounds fun

Go play ROB

Wario's 2.6 Side-B is gawdleh.

 

[Strong Badam]

wario's godlike in general

 

[AbstractLogic]

Wario is too troll in general.

 

[| Kailex |]

Wario is too much wario to be WAH

 

[Mr.Pickle]

so yeah it's worse, right mr. pickle?

Its decent lol, I know how its supposed to work, but it still feels incredibly awkward to me. I just have to practice and get used to it, honestly there is still a lot I don't understand about this character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wavelanding a low aerial side-B sounds fun

That sounds pretty overpowered, and not in a way that would be fun to play against or interesting in terms of gameplay.

 

[AbstractLogic]

That sounds pretty overpowered, and not in a way that would be fun to play against or interesting in terms of gameplay.

Yeah when I imagine it it seems like that would give him WAAAY too much mobility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It would mimic some of the toxic parts of 2.5 Sonic's Down-B--Constant hitbox with the ability to always pull back. 50/50s with very little commitment and potentially large reward.

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, I totally disagree with OP. Even just looking purely at what the change has done for his recovery, I don't feel it's a nerf at all. My Wario still does absolutely fine in the recovery department. In fact, I much prefer the new version even in that regard. Honestly though, I don't think he really needed something like this, he was already insanely good. But hey, he's a blast so I won't complain. I've never had more fun with a character in a smash game.

 

[Ace55]

Loving the new shoulder jet even as a recovery. Thanks to pullback cancel option you can use it as a (worse) shortened spacy side-b, making it less predictable. And when you want to get back to the ledge asap at least this version grabs the ledge instead of bouncing of it.

The easy fair to shoulder bash is still my favorite use for it though. Such a potent of-stage finisher. Should help a lot in the matchups against the chars with ridiculous recoveries.

Btw fair was tweaked a bit right? Because is seems easier than ever to combo with it.

 

[Shell]

Yes, Fair's angle is 5 degrees higher iirc, and the lingering flub has a touch more BKB.