Why on earth are melee top tiers buffed?

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

falco: no stale moves buffs shieldpressure, dacus, new neutral b turnaround system buffs the laser...
seriously, what the ****?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't see how any of that improves him greatly. And its better to see them change at least a little. Like Sheik having the crawl now and the PAL dthrow. I think the tether should have been left in.

 

[Ace55]

Because Melee.

Oh snap, that didn't work.

 

[Oro?!]

Grabbing backwards with SideB as well as having Brawl sideB properties is also a massive buff to spacies. Fox doesn't receive the extra hangtime of upB like he does in NTSC Melee so his recovery is slightly smaller...

And Eryx I believe MikeHaggar is just asking why take the best characters, and give them more options.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

no stale moves DOES improve him greatly
the new turnaround neutral b system means that you can do a retreating laser that then goes back into your opponents range and combos into a shine
and dacus makes falco reach **** he usually cant in combos, buffing his comboing game vs fastfallers GREATLY (LIKE HE NEEDS IT LOL)

ALSO, new pm properties such as raring bairs also buffs him immensely
falcos massive jump and huge bair makes this retardedly op

seriously, just ****ing delete this ***** character already
or, since only the #swaggarnation agrees with that statement: REMOVE HIS BUFFS SOMEHOW, OR NERF HIM OTHERWISE. PLEASE.

 

[Shadic]

We're not seeing Fox/Falco win any more than they are in Melee tournaments despite being the main characters with actual metagames. And all of their "buffs" are basically global mechanic changes that impact them in the same way as everybody else, making Fox/Falco not work with a specific mechanic unlike the rest of the cast would just be a super-janky way of addressing any balance concerns with them.

Also P:M has stale moves. So uh.. Play the game more?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

what? i havent noticed it LMFAO. do you have to do the same move 50 times in a row or something? what are the differences between PM and melee stale moves?

sure falco might not be winning everything, but lets be real: ppl dont take this game as seriously (unfortunately), and those who actually play the game and know the matchups play new chars
also, please just remove his dacus. please ;( for the children.

 

[standardtoaster]

stale moves work exactly like melee except for multihits

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Stale moves has been to work like Melee (it'd be a universal buff even if it wasn't there), turn-around B's can be done in Melee, and shield pressure is all screwed up by Brawl mechanics ATM.

Are people going to ***** for nerfs until Fox/Falco never wins a tournament?

 

[KayB]

I don't mind the buffed spacies too much, but I do think that the developers should be less afraid to make some characters really powerful.

 

[metroid1117]

Stale moves has been to work like Melee (it'd be a universal buff even if it wasn't there), turn-around B's can be done in Melee, and shield pressure is all screwed up by Brawl mechanics ATM.

Are people going to ***** for nerfs until Fox/Falco never wins a tournament?

MikeHaggar is referring to B-reversals which, in addition to turning your character around, completely reverse the momentum of your character on certain B-attacks and is not in Melee.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'm more curious about the melee top tiers having to be EXACTLY the same.

not sure about Fox, maybe give him a move or two from 64?

I had conversations in the past with vigilante about falco, and I still think that there would be nothing wrong with the brawl fsmash, brawl nair (in some way), and the PAL dair being implimented. there were very good reasons for the other brawl moves bring reverted

what's wrong with brawl Marth's shieldbreaker, upsmash and counter? I fully understand that brawl Marth's dancing blade would be crazy, broken good lol

as far as the other top/high tiers go that's all I have lol, jiggs is more or less the same in all three, and there were no big moveset changes to peach; the few new moves she got in brawl she still has in PM iirc...

I fully agree with the Sheik changes.

as for Marth, Fox and Falco... heaven forbid melee vets would have to learn something new about an existing character... I'm probably one of the few that wanted to lol

mango and Dr pp adjusted to PAL falco just fine, and the marth stuff would hardly change his gameplay. Unless brawl shieldbreaker would buff his recovery.

 

[CyberZixx]

It's a nice tech for Falco for sure. Helps out Sheik some too but not as much. If you are falcon or marth it's nigh useless.

Edit: Marth is not different because he is so well designed overall.Why change what is already solid?
I could take or leave those changes. Upsmash is such a situational move that it works fine the way it is now, as long as you tip it. Brawl counter could give Marth a new kill option at high percents, and his shield breaker I could take or leave. Marth is not different because he is so well designed overall.

 

[Kink-Link5]

MikeHaggar is referring to B-reversals which, in addition to turning your character around, completely reverse the momentum of your character on certain B-attacks and is not in Melee.

Metroid is correct. Turnaround Neutral B, or "Reverse B" is a mechanic in both Melee and Brawl, while B-reversal was introduced in Brawl and is responsible for Reverse B-Reversals (RBR), AKA "wavebouncing."

 

[metroid1117]

as far as the other top/high tiers go that's all I have lol, jiggs is more or less the same in all three, and there were no big moveset changes to peach; the few new moves she got in brawl she still has in PM iirc...

I'm sure other people are more knowledgeable about Peach changes, but her FSmashes were changed to be more powerful and they cycle instead of being random.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is correct. The first one of every stock is random then they go in order. Her sideb goes further and will pass through shields. Her uptilt is different. Her umbrella goes higher. AGT helps her. Being able to act out of ledge hops helps her, as she can go up and float.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The only thing she's missing is the ability to D-smash and grab while holding a vegetable.

 

[Shadow Huan]

interesting indeed. I am not a peach player... tho I should goof around with her in pm to see if I was right about the brawl moves

the stuff about Fox falco and marth are obviously only my opinions, but I think that they're reasonible tweaks/alterations to suggest. even though no one asked me, my $0.02*shrugs*

 

[metroid1117]

interesting indeed. I am not a peach player... tho I should goof around with her in pm to see if I was right about the brawl moves

the stuff about Fox falco and marth are obviously only my opinions, but I think that they're reasonible tweaks/alterations to suggest. even though no one asked me, my $0.02*shrugs*

It's not character-specific change since it's a universal mechanic, but Marth can DACUS in PM; it's just that no one does it much because his USmash isn't very good compared to his other options.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

interesting indeed. I am not a peach player... tho I should goof around with her in pm to see if I was right about the brawl moves

the stuff about Fox falco and marth are obviously only my opinions, but I think that they're reasonible tweaks/alterations to suggest. even though no one asked me, my $0.02*shrugs*

I too would like to see Falco regain some brawl moves. I never stayed out of PM to enjoy Brawl, but I like the idea of some of those moves, or at least the animations returning. They gave him a certain level of class. Besides, they better match his overall "bird like" theme.

SHADOW MARIO FOR SMASH 4!!!!

 

[Shadow Huan]

Edit: Marth is not different because he is so well designed overall.Why change what is already solid?
I could take or leave those changes. Upsmash is such a situational move that it works fine the way it is now, as long as you tip it. Brawl counter could give Marth a new kill option at high percents, and his shield breaker I could take or leave. Marth is not different because he is so well designed overall.

brawl upsmash is better if only because it is situational but less so, and is an actual usable move. wtf is the point of having a DACUS that's totally usless? lol

brawl counter does 1.1 the damage of the attack right? I fail to see how that's a bad thing, we are in agreement there

the shieldbreaker is a pet peeve of mine, because the melee attack is not the way he does the move in his games. so Donkey Kong gets a roll attack like he does in his games, but Marth's shieldbreaker gets changed from the way he actually does it in his games back to a misrepresentation because melee? meh

It's not character-specific change since it's a universal mechanic, but Marth can DACUS in PM; it's just that no one does it much because his USmash isn't very good compared to his other options.

if it still had a brawl type function it would be an option lol

just saying is all

I too would like to see Falco regain some brawl moves. I never stayed out of PM to enjoy Brawl, but I like the idea of some of those moves, or at least the animations returning. They gave him a certain level of class. Besides, they better match his overall "bird like" theme.

as i remember vigilante saying, falco's brawl uptilt was a nightmare in a melee like engine, the nair was sorta a give or take, the fair would lead into absurd combos (although the hitboxes could be changed to make it sorta like the flutterhush? I dk lol), and the reflector is obvious lol. I never did see the point of changing the fsmash from brawl back to melee, and the PAL dair is the only actual nerf I agree with.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Okay, I got ahead of myself. Regardless, I would still LOVE to see some aesthetic changes return to the move set. As much as I love melee Falco, he has almost no "flash" to differentiate him from Fox.

 

[MVP]

This thread will be closed soon for it serves no purpose

 

[Vashimus]

Marth's shield breaker in Melee is better than his Brawl one anyway. Better area of attack makes it easier to hit with and less awkward to use. I could care less if it was a misinterpretation.

 

[Mithost]

All I can say about buffed top tiers is that Peach lost some of the stupid stuff that made her really frustration to play as, plus her uptilt is cool now. I can't say much about spacies, but they are not winning nearly as much as the OP implies.

 

[Kink-Link5]

the shieldbreaker is a pet peeve of mine, because the melee attack is not the way he does the move in his games. so Donkey Kong gets a roll attack like he does in his games, but Marth's shieldbreaker gets changed from the way he actually does it in his games back to a misrepresentation because melee? meh

Shield breaker is Melee animation because function comes before form, unless both can be integrated into one, as in DK's dash attack. If you can muster a way to have Brawl shield breaker but with Melee function, by all means share it.

 

[Deleted member]

While I may have problems with Fox/Falco, there's really no justification for eliminating options for them that are available to the rest of the cast. It would be silly if they were the only ones who couldn't B-reverse or grab the ledge backwards. I'd rather they keep these universal buffs and have other parts of them toned down, but dear god I'm not getting into that discussion again.

As for other high tier buffs, sometimes they're just good design choices. Peach's U-tilt fits her character and is a much more interesting (and useful) move than her old one, and Sheik not being able to crawl would be really stupid.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Marth's shield breaker in Melee is better than his Brawl one anyway. Better area of attack makes it easier to hit with and less awkward to use. I could care less if it was a misinterpretation.

how is brawl shieldbreaker hard to hit with if you know how it hits? I will admit that melee shieldbreaker can be used for edgeguarding sometimes, after maining the character for almost 11 years (6 as a casual, 5 as an amateur competitive) I can say that shieldbreaker is one of the least used moves for Marth in melee for me, and I very rarely see other marths use it. a sleeping puff is a satisfying exception lol.

as for the edgeguarding, as far as against spacies anyways, jab, dtilt and sometimes even fsmash are faster and better options anyways

Shield breaker is Melee animation because function comes before form, unless both can be integrated into one, as in DK's dash attack. If you can muster a way to have Brawl shield breaker but with Melee function, by all means share it.

well it helps that DK's dash attack totally sucked lol. the problem with combining them is that the brawl one is a focused attack that rewards precision, and melee's is sorta like a really slow, chargable fsmash you can do in the air.

EDIT

melee shieldbreaker

Time to get to charging: 11 frames
Hit (from release of B): 5-10
Max charge time: 121 frames

brawl shieldbreaker

Hit: 19-22
End: 53
Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
Tipper Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: -31

the difference in the frame data doesn't look to great unless I'm missing something (16 frames to 19? for uncharged hit?)

at any rate, the only thing I could think of would be to make the brawl version tiltable *shrug*

 

[Vashimus]

The Melee Shield Breaker actually has less lag than the f-smash and it hits slightly below the stage, so it's a good choice for edgeguarding especially if you have a time to charge.

 

[1MachGO]

Melee shield breaker is superior to Brawl's. The hitbox is just a lot better. If it was still a stab attack, it would just reduce the uses of an already situational move.