Why isn't Samus higher on the Tier list?

[C-SAF]

I'm fully aware samus has short comings, but especially when looking at her matchup spread I find it hard to understand why she is beneath characters such as doc, Pikachu, and even captain falcon. She has no terrible matchups like Pikachu with shiek. Captain falcon and doc both struggle with spacies far more than Samus (infact that mathcup with samus is supposedly even) and this is more important now than ever as spacies makeup like half the players at any given tournament.

It just seems like the tier list favours characters that hold many advantageous matchups, rather than consistently even or close to even matchups matchups like samus has. It only takes one terrible matchup you face a lot (Pikachu with sheik, CF/doc with spacies) to make winning a tournament nearly impossible, as opposed to being even or only soft countered a lot like samus. Tournament winning potential is what Tier lists rank, so that's why I think samus ought to be higher. Anyone else think this?

 

[Narpas_sword]

She can be thought of as even-ish with fox/falco.

but imo, it's uphill vs marth and falcon and peach, more so against sheik.

in the top 8, shes only got advantage vs iceies really...

She seems to fit well where she is.

 

[C-SAF]

She can be thought of as even-ish with fox/falco.

but imo, it's uphill vs marth and falcon and peach, more so against sheik.

in the top 8, shes only got advantage vs iceies really...

She seems to fit well where she is.

Peach seems at least even if you wait her out, falcons not terrible either as its hard for him to combo samus, and its not like shiek has a chiangrab on samus. The needles are a ***** but that doesn't make the matchup as hard as many others have against shiek.

 

[Narpas_sword]

My input may be a little moot as a PAL player anyway.

 

[C-SAF]

PAL has a lot less shiek chaingrabs so that would shake things up on the tier list a lot

 

[Narpas_sword]

I believe the order doesn't change in PAL, it's just ever so slightly more evenly matched. I still think sheik is one of samus's hardest match ups

 

[C-SAF]

For sure she is, but its not heavily weighted in her favour like some of the matchups of characters higher in the tier list are. Pikachu gets really screwed by shiek in the north American version cause of chaingrabs. Same how CF is against spacies is super tough, and doc gets effed by marth and sheik cause he can't reach them. Samus isn't hard countered by anyone I guess is what im getting at.

I do wish PAL was the norm though, most of the changes in balancing seem to be for the better.

 

[Oskurito]

As far as I know, the tier list is based on tournament placings, so... there you have it. To be honest, I've never seen a samus win a tournament, or many samus players placing high. Good samus players that place somewhat high on tournaments are less than 3 if not 0.

Also, I don't think samus does decent against sheik, she gets destroyed imo, same history against marth, peach is also a problem. The only reason samus isn't lower is because she does somewhat good against fast fallers (spacies and falcon). Yet is not even good for her, is just even, is just ok.

 

[C-SAF]

As far as I know, the tier list is based on tournament placings, so... there you have it.

Isnt that the opposite of what the tier list is based on? The potential to do well is more important than taking into account how good the players are that play them. If nobody played falco anymore he wouldn't drop in the tier list.

 

[343]

Well, Sheik has guaranteed follow-ups out of dthrow in NTSC; she can pressure Samus a lot from close range with grab / sh aerial / jab / tilt / dsmash mixups; she has great options for dealing with Samus's projectiles; and she's one of the few characters that can effectively edgeguard Samus (with needles when you're low, cc dsmash / dtilt / ftilt if you're near the ledge, and Sheiks huge aerials if you're high). The biggest thing Samus can take advantage of is crouch-cancel at low percents, but good Sheiks will just do un-ccable stuff like grab until you're above like 30 or 40% (and it takes only two grabs to get you there!) To beat a Sheik, you have to repeatedly outplay them in the neutral, or they have to be very clueless about how Samus can punish them.

Also, Falcon does get followups at certain %s if they read your DI correctly. Even if you DI down + away from dthrow -> fair, which works pretty well against Falcons who are trying really hard to combo you out of dthrow, they can read that and punish your fair (see Wizzrobe vs Plup, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyoN1HVBmM4, from TO10.) Being above Falcon sucks because his uair beats everything. Falcon is relatively easy to edgeguard, though, unless he's recovering high and has up-b fadeback options; HugS has been trying out things like fair -> fsmash against high upbs, which seem pretty cute.

Puff, Marth, and Peach are also pretty difficult matchups, and Ganon is hard unless you missile really well (which you should, I guess.) Link is also a tough matchup.

Basically, I don't think Samus can really be placed above ICs or Falcon, but she might be at the top of the mid-tiers.

 

[C-SAF]

Well, Sheik has guaranteed follow-ups out of dthrow in NTSC; she can pressure Samus a lot from close range with grab / sh aerial / jab / tilt / dsmash mixups; she has great options for dealing with Samus's projectiles; and she's one of the few characters that can effectively edgeguard Samus (with needles when you're low, cc dsmash / dtilt / ftilt if you're near the ledge, and Sheiks huge aerials if you're high). The biggest thing Samus can take advantage of is crouch-cancel at low percents, but good Sheiks will just do un-ccable stuff like grab until you're above like 30 or 40% (and it takes only two grabs to get you there!) To beat a Sheik, you have to repeatedly outplay them in the neutral, or they have to be very clueless about how Samus can punish them.

Also, Falcon does get followups at certain %s if they read your DI correctly. Even if you DI down + away from dthrow -> fair, which works pretty well against Falcons who are trying really hard to combo you out of dthrow, they can read that and punish your fair (see Wizzrobe vs Plup, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyoN1HVBmM4, from TO10.) Being above Falcon sucks because his uair beats everything. Falcon is relatively easy to edgeguard, though, unless he's recovering high and has up-b fadeback options; HugS has been trying out things like fair -> fsmash against high upbs, which seem pretty cute.

Puff, Marth, and Peach are also pretty difficult matchups, and Ganon is hard unless you missile really well (which you should, I guess.) Link is also a tough matchup.

Basically, I don't think Samus can really be placed above ICs or Falcon, but she might be at the top of the mid-tiers.

Good points, realistically I didn't think anyone else would think her to be better that falcon. I think ICs are too low aswell, if wobbling is legal anyway. She just seems much stronger than many of the mid tiers, especially doc and Pikachu. I do think if a new tier list is made soon she will be moving up past them at least.

 

[Oskurito]

Isnt that the opposite of what the tier list is based on? The potential to do well...

The potential to do well is also (mostly) based on tournament results.

 

[C-SAF]

The potential to do well is also (mostly) based on tournament results.

People take tournament results into account, but its not the proper way. Watching high level matches helps shape our idea of what a character can do, but the results of a match reflect player skill more than what is possible when playing "perfect".

 

[JediLink]

As far as I know, the tier list is based on tournament placings, so...

It's not. It's based on votes.

 

[Oskurito]

It's not. It's based on votes.

The votes are also based in tournament results! xD

I've been here since 2006 and that's the way it has always been. I'm saying this because what looks good on paper doesn't look as good in reality. Don't you guys remember when puff was top3 because of mango?

I'm sorry, but what counts is what you do in real tournaments not what you say on forums. You want to prove that X character is better? Go and win some tournaments against the best players.

And for the record, I'm not implying that samus is a bad character, I think she's a cool character, I always have fun playing samus. Samus is a decent character, but once you start improving your smash level you start realizing why you're not higher on the list. Some of samus traits limit her options:

-up smash is bad
-slow roll
-projectiles can be destroyed by regular attacks
-missed grabs can be easily punished
-lack of power in aerials you can only Ko with a solid bair, and dair can be meteor canceled.
-awkward jump limits speed

samus is best grounded imo, the aerials work well with platforms and in combination with bombs. Pros:

-up b oos is very fast and can be edge cancelled
-dsmash hits very hard.
-all tilts are great.
-grab can have ridiculous range (+ extender)
-superwavedash
-heaviest weight + floatiness + good recovery makes you hard to kill.
-good firepower on projectiles.

 

[C-SAF]

The votes are also based in tournament results! xD

I've been here since 2006 and that's the way it has always been. I'm saying this because what looks good on paper doesn't look as good in reality. Don't you guys remember when puff was top3 because of mango?

I'm sorry, but what counts is what you do in real tournaments not what you say on forums. You want to prove that X character is better? Go and win some tournaments against the best players.

Puff ought to be top 3, she is that good. Of course because only one person plays her in tournament now she drops.

Why I think samus should be higher is because while she doesn't have any machups heavily in her favour, there are few that are really terrible. The pool of top level samus players is rather small so she gets docked for that? Theres one top level Pikachu, and one top level doc in shroomed (now hes shiek), and both those characters get owned by shiek.

If im not mistaken too, Falco has much more of a history winning tournaments than fox, but fox is #1 because he's the best in theory.

 

[Oskurito]

Puff ought to be top 3, she is that good. Of course because only one person plays her in tournament now she drops.

Why I think samus should be higher is because while she doesn't have any machups heavily in her favour, there are few that are really terrible. The pool of top level samus players is rather small so she gets docked for that? Theres one top level Pikachu, and one top level doc in shroomed (now hes shiek), and both those characters get owned by shiek.

If im not mistaken too, Falco has much more of a history winning tournaments than fox, but fox is #1 because he's the best in theory.

Pika is successfull as well as doc, samus.. not so much, not as much at least. Fox players place better in tournaments, the best player in the world mains fox, he's not just good "in theory" he proves it.

 

[C-SAF]

Pika is successfull as well as doc, samus.. not so much, not as much at least. Fox players place better in tournaments, the best player in the world mains fox, he's not just good "in theory" he proves it.

He proves it wth his co-main falco just as much, and PPMD dominates with Falco too. Whens the last time sheik won a major tournament without the help of an M2K marth? Doesn't make us rethink what she is capable of.

If I wanted to look at player power rankings I would, tiers would be much easier. Doc and Pika's matchups are not as good as samus.

 

[SSS]

If by matchup spread you mean any sort of matchup chart, just know that all matchup charts out there are bad.

Samus places really badly in all tournaments. She goes even with Fox, beats Falco (one of Falco's only two bad matchups; the other one is Peach), and gets her booty kicked by Sheik and Marth. Puff/Samus is stupidly in Puff's favor if the Puff wants to play slowly (which all Puffs do anyway). Peach idk. Captain Falcon can combo Samus very well. IC's are bad we don't listen to them. Samus is probably right under ICs. Better than Ganon, better than Doc, worse than Pikachu.

As someone with a lot of Samus experience, I'll tell you that she can get straight poopoo'd on.

 

[Slacker]

plup has done better and better with her, maybe that'll help her out.

probably she's not higher cause some tougher matchups particularly marth and sheik, her ****tiness/sluggishness in the air, and i think one of the most important things is that if you camp her out she loses or at least has a much harder time.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i hate to break it to you but the matchup chart is kind of bull****. according to the chart, ganondorf only has 5 unfavorable matchups and does better against the space animals than falcon. and samus has 7 unfavorable matchups. if we're going by that logic, ganon should be above samus. however anyone that actually plays a mid tier knows that they definitely have it harder than that.

at this point, i think the mid tiers are really murky. the only change that's really clear imo is that mario shouldn't be up there and yoshi should. aside from that, none of them really seem to especially outperform each other consistently. there's a super star player for each of them but the rest of the players all do about the same.

 

[C-SAF]

i hate to break it to you but the matchup chart is kind of bull****. according to the chart, ganondorf only has 5 unfavorable matchups and does better against the space animals than falcon. and samus has 7 unfavorable matchups. if we're going by that logic, ganon should be above samus. however anyone that actually plays a mid tier knows that they definitely have it harder than that.

at this point, i think the mid tiers are really murky. the only change that's really clear imo is that mario shouldn't be up there and yoshi should. aside from that, none of them really seem to especially outperform each other consistently. there's a super star player for each of them but the rest of the players all do about the same.

Most of the chart is bull****, but the samus does have a good matchups against spacies, and certainly no harder time against marth and shiek than doc or pika do. She's a step above the other mid tiers is what it seems and the tier list doesn't reflect that in any way.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Most of the chart is bull****, but the samus does have a good matchups against spacies, and certainly no harder time against marth and shiek than doc or pika do. She's a step above the other mid tiers is what it seems and the tier list doesn't reflect that in any way.

you're only comparing her to doc and pika. what about ganon and luigi? while they still get destroyed by sheik, they deal with falcon, and other floatier characters better than samus. it's not 20xx yet, space animal matchups count for more but the other matchups are still highly relevant.

 

[C-SAF]

you're only comparing her to doc and pika. what about ganon and luigi? while they still get destroyed by sheik, they deal with falcon, and other floatier characters better than samus. it's not 20xx yet, space animal matchups count for more but the other matchups are still highly relevant.

Luigi is like samus with a ****ty projectile, and even more ground based aswell as worse against spacies, so I don't know how samus would be worse than him. And ganon honestly has unwinnable matchups against spacies at top level. If the player decides to camp on ganon, whether it be peach or space animal, there is nothing he can do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Luigi is like samus with a ****ty projectile, and even more ground based aswell as worse against spacies, so I don't know how samus would be worse than him. And ganon honestly has unwinnable matchups against spacies at top level. If the player decides to camp on ganon, whether it be peach or space animal, there is nothing he can do.

meh not really. luigi has a similar ground game to samus but he also has some good options in the air. he's far from completely ground based. i think samus has better space animal matchups than him still, but not by the huge a margin. and he seems to do better vs falcon and a few other characters.

ganon doesn't really have that hard a time dealing with campy players on platform stages because of his wavelands. it's actually quite the opposite. it's players that get up in ganon's face and stop him from abusing his huge hitboxes and mobility that wreck him. peach is actually an even matchup and most ganons don't really mind it. it's the sheik and fox matchups that we all hate. falco can be wrecked in like two hits.

that being said, i think samus still does better against fox and falco than ganon, but ganon does better against marth, falcon, peach and the ics. and in terms of the space animal matchups, samus only really does that much better than ganon in the fox matchup. the falco matchup isn't so bad for ganon.

 

[C-SAF]

meh not really. luigi has a similar ground game to samus but he also has some good options in the air. he's far from completely ground based. i think samus has better space animal matchups than him still, but not by the huge a margin. and he seems to do better vs falcon and a few other characters.

ganon doesn't really have that hard a time dealing with campy players on platform stages because of his wavelands. it's actually quite the opposite. it's players that get up in ganon's face and stop him from abusing his huge hitboxes and mobility that wreck him. peach is actually an even matchup and most ganons don't really mind it. it's the sheik and fox matchups that we all hate. falco can be wrecked in like two hits.

that being said, i think samus still does better against fox and falco than ganon, but ganon does better against marth, falcon, peach and the ics. and in terms of the space animal matchups, samus only really does that much better than ganon in the fox matchup. the falco matchup isn't so bad for ganon.

Samus deals with pressure far better than luigi does because her Oos options are great, and everything else samus does pretty much better (projectile, air game, recovery 4sure).

Ganon cant move under falco's laser so I cant see how that is a plus, fox can camp him hard and gimp him even harder. Peach and jiggs can edge guard the crap out of him too, and he gets combo'd super hard. Really most matchups Captain falcon has hard, Ganon has tougher, except for maybe the matchup of CF vs Ganon.

Samus has ways of dealing with these problems because she has decent projectiles, forcing opponents to attack. Excellent recovery. And a crouch cancel game and Oos options which help her out of jams.

 

[1MachGO]

Samus is good, but she isn't better than Pikachu... and I would still contend she is worse than Doc/Mario (Mario, contrary to popular belief, Mario is too similar to Doc to suggest their difference in viability is that great).

1. The Mid-Tier-Trend
You see, the thing about mid tiers is that they primarily cling to decent MUs vs. Fox/Falco while they struggle against other high tiers. If Sheik was as popular as Fox/Falco, the relative viability of every mid tier would drop tremendously.

2. Samus: The polarized mid tier
This issue is heavily accentuated with Samus who is probably the second best pick in the game vs. Fox/Falco (Marth being first of course). However, its a struggle vs. Peach/Puff/Falcon, and she outright loses to Marth and Sheik; especially Sheik which is a wayyy worse MU for Samus than it is for Pikachu. In fact, Mango and Scar were actually talking about how Sheik/Samus is unwinnable during BH4 commentary today lol.

3. Ground-based characters lose to other ground-based characters who are better at the ground-based game
Sheik>Marth>Samus

The further you are to the right, the harder you get beaten by the left.

Without over elaborating, Sheik/Marth have the stronger toolsets; they can easily exploit Samus's inferiority in the ground game. Sheik has a variety of launchers, safe tilts, and guaranteed damage off downthrow. Marth has an insane DD/WD game and one of the best dtilts in the game (a disjointed, low poke thats safe on block). Samus, on the other hand, feels like a ground based character out of necessity. Her WD/ftilt/dsmash/missiles give her a great poke game, but most of her punish game ultimately stem from attrition. This strategy will ultimately fail against opponents who can beat her at every turn in neutral.

Perhaps the perfect parallel to Samus's issues as a character is her OoS game. Her Up-B OoS is incredible; it is fast, invincible on start up, and is the perfect counter to characters who try to pressure too close on your shield. However, she relies on it; all of her other OoS options are mediocre. Her roll is garbage, her grab is so slow that you can pressure her shield with minus on block attacks, and her WD OoS will reset to neutral at best. What can she really do to stop Marth/Samus from poking her shield with their tilts?

 

[Oskurito]

He proves it wth his co-main falco just as much, and PPMD dominates with Falco too. Whens the last time sheik won a major tournament without the help of an M2K marth? Doesn't make us rethink what she is capable of.

If I wanted to look at player power rankings I would, tiers would be much easier.

Do you look at other people's placings and what characters they use?

Look at this:

specially the first one

Samus deals with pressure far better than luigi does because her Oos options are great.

The needles are a ***** but that doesn't make the matchup as hard as many others have against shiek.

Why I think samus should be higher is because while she doesn't have any machups heavily in her favour, there are few that are really terrible.

Doc and Pika's matchups are not as good as samus.

She just seems much stronger than many of the mid tiers, especially doc and Pikachu.

You're either too biased, or too ignorant, or a troll or some combination of the latter. If you really want to prove all your points then you should go play in a tournament and beat people with samus.

 

[C-SAF]

Do you look at other people's placings and what characters they use?

Look at this:

specially the first one


You're either too biased, or too ignorant, or a troll or some combination of the latter. If you really want to prove all your points then you should go play in a tournament and beat people with samus.

Wtf, in both cases I'm saying tournament placings don't matter. The first quote was in response to you who said fox was top tier because Mango wins with him all the time. That's clearly not true as Falco has actually had historically better tournament placings, and mango uses both almost equally. Therefore fox is top tier because of the objective tools he has and matchup spread. Then the second post I explain the advantages that Samus has over other Mid tiers.

If you forgot what the first quote was in response to, then it was a mistake on your part. But when I make an argument as to why Samus is better then the other mid tier characters and you call me a Troll for it, I don't know what to think.

I do beat people in tournament with samus and that is what has made me question her tier placement. When comparing her to other mid tiers, her advantages seem legit. Im not saying she should be top tier, but better than those characters immediately infront of her.

 

[C-SAF]

Samus is good, but she isn't better than Pikachu... and I would still contend she is worse than Doc/Mario (Mario, contrary to popular belief, Mario is too similar to Doc to suggest their difference in viability is that great).

1. The Mid-Tier-Trend
You see, the thing about mid tiers is that they primarily cling to decent MUs vs. Fox/Falco while they struggle against other high tiers. If Sheik was as popular as Fox/Falco, the relative viability of every mid tier would drop tremendously.

2. Samus: The polarized mid tier
This issue is heavily accentuated with Samus who is probably the second best pick in the game vs. Fox/Falco (Marth being first of course). However, its a struggle vs. Peach/Puff/Falcon, and she outright loses to Marth and Sheik; especially Sheik which is a wayyy worse MU for Samus than it is for Pikachu. In fact, Mango and Scar were actually talking about how Sheik/Samus is unwinnable during BH4 commentary today lol.

3. Ground-based characters lose to other ground-based characters who are better at the ground-based game
Sheik>Marth>Samus

The further you are to the right, the harder you get beaten by the left.

Without over elaborating, Sheik/Marth have the stronger toolsets; they can easily exploit Samus's inferiority in the ground game. Sheik has a variety of launchers, safe tilts, and guaranteed damage off downthrow. Marth has an insane DD/WD game and one of the best dtilts in the game (a disjointed, low poke thats safe on block). Samus, on the other hand, feels like a ground based character out of necessity. Her WD/ftilt/dsmash/missiles give her a great poke game, but most of her punish game ultimately stem from attrition. This strategy will ultimately fail against opponents who can beat her at every turn in neutral.

Perhaps the perfect parallel to Samus's issues as a character is her OoS game. Her Up-B OoS is incredible; it is fast, invincible on start up, and is the perfect counter to characters who try to pressure too close on your shield. However, she relies on it; all of her other OoS options are mediocre. Her roll is garbage, her grab is so slow that you can pressure her shield with minus on block attacks, and her WD OoS will reset to neutral at best. What can she really do to stop Marth/Samus from poking her shield with their tilts?

This is the best explanation I've gotten yet, thanx for the info. I would still contend that she is better than doc, but there is barely any difference in one spot anyway. In line with your first point, at the very least I think her tier placement could rise with the continued influx of spacies, but I understand better why it is not better now.

Thanx again for not just saying "she gets destroyed by shiek and marth" but actually explaining it, or using the "She doesn't place well in tournament" argument.

 

[Oskurito]

Wtf, in both cases I'm saying tournament placings don't matter.

Read: http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113/

The first quote was in response to you who said fox was top tier because Mango wins with him all the time. That's clearly not true as... [...]

What I actually said:

Pika is successfull as well as doc, samus.. not so much, not as much at least. Fox players place better in tournaments, the best player in the world mains fox, he's not just good "in theory" he proves it.

If you forgot what the first quote was in response to, then it was a mistake on your part. But when I make an argument as to why Samus is better then the other mid tier characters and you call me a Troll for it, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what to think about you to be honest, I said what I said because of the claims you made about samus, seems pretty biased in my opinion.

I do beat people in tournament with samus and that is what has made me question her tier placement.

You do realize there's a possibility that these people you play may not be the best players right?

When comparing her to other mid tiers, her advantages seem legit. Im not saying she should be top tier, but better than those characters immediately infront of her.

I say you keep playing with what you enjoy to play and don't give a **** about tiers, just be the best you can be. You can always out play people, have better tactics & mindgames, etc. so it doesn't matter what you play, even if you want to be the best player you still need to have solid skills and be able to just straight out play people.

Luigi was my first main back in 2006, and I didn't give a damn about the tier list.

 

[343]

some people need to calm down lol

 

[C-SAF]

Pika is successfull as well as doc, samus.. not so much, not as much at least. Fox players place better in tournaments, the best player in the world mains fox, he's not just good "in theory" he proves it.

Looked at the second line, obviously you missed it while you were flaming, but unless you meant some other best in the world fox main I assumed you were talking about mango. Who were you talking about then?

You do realize there's a possibility that these people you play may not be the best players right?

Obviously, but you said right before

If you really want to prove all your points then you should go play in a tournament and beat people with samus.

And I told you I had done that. My tournament results have yet to disprove anything I'm claiming so I thought I'd ask others what they thought. I got a lot of good answers, non such from you.

I say you keep playing with what you enjoy to play and don't give a **** about tiers, just be the best you can be. You can always out play people, have better tactics & mindgames, etc. so it doesn't matter what you play, even if you want to be the best player you still need to have solid skills and be able to just straight out play people.

I would never stop playing samus she is my favourits character, I never once said I would. I thought I'd ask why she was where she was on the tier list to better understand my favourite character. I do understand her limitations better now because of this thread and the answers given to me by other smashers. See 1MachoGo's post for an example. You were only able to say she places poorly in tournament and her moves were bad, then flame when I offered any counter argument. lol bias is anyone who doesn't agree with u I guess

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Samus deals with pressure far better than luigi does because her Oos options are great, and everything else samus does pretty much better (projectile, air game, recovery 4sure).

Ganon cant move under falco's laser so I cant see how that is a plus, fox can camp him hard and gimp him even harder. Peach and jiggs can edge guard the crap out of him too, and he gets combo'd super hard. Really most matchups Captain falcon has hard, Ganon has tougher, except for maybe the matchup of CF vs Ganon.

Samus has ways of dealing with these problems because she has decent projectiles, forcing opponents to attack. Excellent recovery. And a crouch cancel game and Oos options which help her out of jams.

well the thing is you're just comparing samus' greatest strengths with other characters and using that the basis for her "superiority".

you're also just blatantly off about ganon. especially about peach. ganon has a ridiculous item catch so turnips are no problem.

 

[C-SAF]

well the thing is you're just comparing samus' greatest strengths with other characters and using that the basis for her "superiority".

you're also just blatantly off about ganon. especially about peach. ganon has a ridiculous item catch so turnips are no problem.

I watch a decent amount of kage's matches, and from what I see peach usually waits until ganon throws out a move to punish him with a turnip, the turnips also disrupt is jumps and edge guard him pretty effectively. He also can't catch lasers. Sorry if I don't think much of him, Im just noticing now he's your main, but I cant think of a viable way for Ganon to deal with this.

As for samus, that's pretty much the point of my argument. Her greatest strengths are the other mid tiers weaknesses, and her drawbacks are not as sizable as theirs. I do retract my claim that she's better than Pikachu however, previous posts in this thread have made me see she's probably only one spot below where I would put her. In my mind she is slightly ahead of Doc, but quite a bit ahead of luigi and ganon.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I watch a decent amount of kage's matches, and from what I see peach usually waits until ganon throws out a move to punish him with a turnip, the turnips also disrupt is jumps and edge guard him pretty effectively.

what you first said was correct, that's a good strategy vs ganon with peach. but it doesn't actually disrupt your jumps very well and you have to use it very wisely when trying to edgeguard ganon. see if you jump with ganon and peach throws a turnip at you, you have a very large window of frames to simply press z and catch the turnip. and when ganon is trying to recover it's the same deal. float cancel alone is good enough to edge guard him with peach. the only time ganon is really vulnerable to turnips in the neutral is when he's dash dancing or has just whiffed a move.

i'm not going to write out a long argument as to why it's an even matchup, but take my word for it. just watch some other ganon players vs peach and you'll see what i mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wei_IQSwg4

He also can't catch lasers. Sorry if I don't think much of him, Im just noticing now he's your main, but I cant think of a viable way for Ganon to deal with this.

ummm the same way most characters deal with lasers? lol

power shields
wd oos
full hopping to force falco to commit
going to the platforms

As for samus, that's pretty much the point of my argument. Her greatest strengths are the other mid tiers weaknesses, and her drawbacks are not as sizable as theirs.

but some of her greatest weaknesses are other mid tiers greatest strengths. your entire argument for her tier placement is centered around only considering a few factors that contribute to a character while ignoring others. for example how does samus stack up in terms of her options from the ledge? what about her shield pressure game? grabs? tech chasing? etc.

 

[Keebler]

Another thing to take into account is that Samus doesn't have the potential for huge killing combos, and hit-and-run is not an extremely potent strategy for Melee.

 

[Oskurito]

Looked at the second line, obviously you missed it while you were flaming, but unless you meant some other best in the world fox main I assumed you were talking about mango. Who were you talking about then?

Fox players in general, every tournament I see there are always pretty good fox players on pool, same on SS5 (shodowloo shodown), 5 solid foxes at least. I honestly think every player that mains X character, usually also mains fox, specially top level professionals. Look at The Big House 4 top 8 today: Mango, M2K, Hax, Kels, Westballz, Lucky, Armada, Leffen. Every single one of those players has a fox, 4 of them main fox. Is funny because during westballz vs plup, scar and hmw were talking about how samus players keep saying she should be higher on the tier list but none of them can prove it. I probably sound like a douche bag, but this is just the way tiers are in this game.

And I told you I had done that. My tournament results have yet to disprove anything I'm claiming so I thought I'd ask others what they thought. I got a lot of good answers, non such from you.

Travel and prove your tournament results. Heck, you might make it with plup + duck + hugs if you're as good as them or better.

I would never stop playing samus she is my favourits character, I never once said I would. I thought I'd ask why she was where she was on the tier list to better understand my favourite character. I do understand her limitations better now because of this thread and the answers given to me by other smashers. See 1MachoGo's post for an example. You were only able to say she places poorly in tournament and her moves were bad, then flame when I offered any counter argument. lol bias is anyone who doesn't agree with u I guess

Never said all her moves were bad, I think her moves kind of limit her options (up smash oos is pretty bad, and shield grab is very unsafe for example). Pika and doc have move that kind of suck, Pika has bair, and side B, doc has dtilt and up smash, every character has a move that is pretty bad compared to their best moves. But imo, pikas + doc match up vs top characters (being fox, falco, sheik, peach, marth, falcon) aren't as bad as samus, except sheik vs pika being an exception. Samus does well against spacies I give you that, but she struggles vs peach and falcon, sure is winnable but is difficult to pull of for a samus, and marth and sheik is just disadvantage, you have to admit that.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

some people need to calm down lol

I laughed.

But yeah C-SAF you don't know how to zone or bait well. You win where you live because you go all in with Samus and people just buckle.

 

[C-SAF]

but some of her greatest weaknesses are other mid tiers greatest strengths. your entire argument for her tier placement is centered around only considering a few factors that contribute to a character while ignoring others. for example how does samus stack up in terms of her options from the ledge? what about her shield pressure game? grabs? tech chasing? etc.

She has a lot of options off the ledge (Fair, nair, up b, missle, Uair, bomb), her jab shield pressure and bomb pressure can both be very effective. As well as a shield stab with down smash. Up B Oos opton is godlike and even features invincibility frames. The only major issue you pointed out there was her grab game and tech chase. Like I said before, she has her weaknesses, but every mid tier does and she has fewer than the others.

Fox players in general, every tournament I see there are always pretty good fox players on pool, same on SS5 (shodowloo shodown), 5 solid foxes at least. I honestly think every player that mains X character, usually also mains fox, specially top level professionals. Look at The Big House 4 top 8 today: Mango, M2K, Hax, Kels, Westballz, Lucky, Armada, Leffen. Every single one of those players has a fox, 4 of them main fox. Is funny because during westballz vs plup, scar and hmw were talking about how samus players keep saying she should be higher on the tier list but none of them can prove it. I probably sound like a douche bag, but this is just the way tiers are in this game.


Travel and prove your tournament results. Heck, you might make it with plup + duck + hugs if you're as good as them or better.


Never said all her moves were bad, I think her moves kind of limit her options (up smash oos is pretty bad, and shield grab is very unsafe for example). Pika and doc have move that kind of suck, Pika has bair, and side B, doc has dtilt and up smash, every character has a move that is pretty bad compared to their best moves. But imo, pikas + doc match up vs top characters (being fox, falco, sheik, peach, marth, falcon) aren't as bad as samus, except sheik vs pika being an exception. Samus does well against spacies I give you that, but she struggles vs peach and falcon, sure is winnable but is difficult to pull of for a samus, and marth and sheik is just disadvantage, you have to admit that.

I already explained in an earlier post what I thought now that I got an informative answer from someone else in the thread. Like you said BH4 featured a lot of foxes in its top 8, and its this fact that still makes me think Samus is due for a rise soon. Also, I heard what Scar said and thought it was funny because at that point Plup had already outperformed Axe's Pikachu, and every doc, and falcon not named mango. Not an argument in itself but funny he made that comment when he did.