Why is Zelda considered such a bad character?

[Krauserlols]

I have been playing super smash from the very start on the N64, i have never been a competitive smasher but me and my friends have played all the smashes and used almost all the characters until we find a character that just clicks with us. In case of Brawl one of my friends play Zelda and only Zelda 24/7 and daaaaaaam isnt he good with her.

Now i have always ignored Tier list of any kind, i like to do my own thing, to use what i think is better and i hate when people start flaming me about why im using X character/gun cause it sucks and EVERYONE says it sucks yet i like using it like for example the Grataka in warframe is considered one of the worst guns in the game cause it does too little damage so it tents to run out of ammo rather fast and i should be using only the Soma cause SOMAMASTERRACE SWAG SWAG SWAG or something, i like using it cause i just feel good using it and both its desing and sound is pretty cool, for me at least. Now i do know that what i use is not the best, yes it probably wont last 30 seconds in a high tier Oroking tower but i dont care, i use what it works for me.

But we are getting off topic what has all this to do with Zelda? well Zelda has always been considered a bad character by most players and the tier list shows her pretty low. On melee she was on 19 under people like Link, Gannndorf, DK and yoshi. On brawl she was rock botton only beaten by Gannondorf (for good reason). and the reason i hear more often is that shes too slow and easy to combo into oblibion, and to be honest i dont get it. Now i will be talking for Brawl Zelda since its the one i have more experience with (and against), then the Project M one.

On brawl i have been fighting Zelda ever since it came out since, again, one of my friends only uses Zelda. Since we tent to be 3 most of the time his strategy usually revolves around standing on a single spot launching din fire at us with really umpredictable presition. And getting into Zelda is not the easiest thing with all those AoE attacks. What im saying is that of all the negatives i hear about Zelda the only one i can agree on is her speed. Sure she runs very VERY slowly but why does she need to run if she can just spam that din fire and then attack when the enemy aproaches.

Another weakness i hear is that shes easy to KO cause she lighter. Sure shes not Gannondorf or Bowser weight but shes rather heavy and KOing her is pretty hard with that Farore wind.

Then people point out its easy to just go in and smash her to bit cause she has no way to defend herself once you get in her face but something i have noticed through my years fighting Zelda (and sometimes using her myself) is that Zelda regular moves have both great speed and a variety of wide arcs and hitboxes, every move feels like she just creates a barrier to push me away, not to mention they hit really hard and that forward smash is tricky cause it keeps hitting me through my shield.

So long as you measure your opponent Zelda moves can pretty much cover her entire body making it hard to even get a good beat on her. The only weaknesses i have noticed is that characters with multiple proyectiles with varied speeds can catch the player of guard like ROB or Samus as well as attacks with multiple hits like various of Pit moves or awkward hitboxes like Wolf or Lucario can pierce through its defence.

All in all Zelda feels like pretty much a walking fortress, she has a good ranged harrass and when enemies come in the wide arcs and high damage of her basic smash moves will keep enemies from hitting you. Shes a really hard target to aproach and Project M makes this even harder now that shes faster and her new din fire (despite my friend not aproving it, meh) turns her ranged harrass tool into a deadly trap. I simply dont get all the weird looks i tent to get when i say Zelda was a pretty good character in brawl, i just wannted to get that out of my chest, thanks for reading my little rant.

SHARE YOUR OPPINONS ON THE COMMENTS!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You might wanna visit the Zelda forums, which hosts a wealth of information you might wanna take a look at.

 

[Krauserlols]

You might wanna visit the Zelda forums, which hosts a wealth of information you might wanna take a look at.

huh didnt notice there where subforums for the characters, thanks im gonna take a look.

 

[4tlas]

Zelda is extremely effective at lower levels of play, but falls off heavily as players improve. You can find all of the relevant info on Zelda in the Zelda subforums, but it might help to give you an analogy like you were using with your Warframe example.

Take the Grenade Launcher, affectionately referred to as the "Noobtube", in CoD. It is very easy to use this weapon to mop the floor with bad players, since they do not use cover properly, are not quick enough to kill you first, and often congregate in the same areas for easy AoE damage. At the same time it is easy for bad players to use this weapon since it does not require precision aiming, you can fire-and-forget, and it should one-shot anyone unfortunate enough to get hit by it.

However, good players know how to defeat this strategy. They will use cover to hide from the explosion, they will take overlooked routes to flank the tuber, and they can kill the tuber as soon as he steps into the open (which he has to to not explode himself when firing). Good players also know how to be more effective with other strategies. They have good aim and can snipe from across the map, they know the map well and can cover multiple paths with an assault rifle that doesn't have to reload as often, and they understand player habits which allow them to time someone emerging from cover only to receive a shotgun blast to the face.

Being skilled with the grenade launcher against good players is actually extremely difficult. They know how to duck behind cover so you have to predict when they will step out and fire the explosive beforehand. They know to take underused routes, leaving you in a 1v1 situation where you get to make only 1 shot and then they can step out and kill you because you have no backup, which means you can never miss. If you step out of cover to use your grenade launcher you are likely to get sniped, which means you have to stay in close-quarters and yet somehow not blow yourself up.

Zelda is much like the Noobtube. She has powerful attacks but they require precision and timing, since they are actually quite slow. More importantly, SHE is slow, and thus getting into the position to use her attacks requires foresight. Low-level players are often slow and predictable, and, just like the noobtube, Zelda can create a seemingly impassable wall if her opponents do not mix up or hide their intentions as well as have the speed to get through her defenses. At a high level, however, it is pretty easy to overwhelm Zelda with speed, baits, or careful play. She can be outcamped, she can be rushed, and she can be baited and punished. While many characters have those problems, she is pretty bad at camping and rushing, and baits don't work if everyone knows that's your only option.

 

[Krauserlols]

Zelda is extremely effective at lower levels of play, but falls off heavily as players improve. You can find all of the relevant info on Zelda in the Zelda subforums, but it might help to give you an analogy like you were using with your Warframe example.

Take the Grenade Launcher, affectionately referred to as the "Noobtube", in CoD. It is very easy to use this weapon to mop the floor with bad players, since they do not use cover properly, are not quick enough to kill you first, and often congregate in the same areas for easy AoE damage. At the same time it is easy for bad players to use this weapon since it does not require precision aiming, you can fire-and-forget, and it should one-shot anyone unfortunate enough to get hit by it.

However, good players know how to defeat this strategy. They will use cover to hide from the explosion, they will take overlooked routes to flank the tuber, and they can kill the tuber as soon as he steps into the open (which he has to to not explode himself when firing). Good players also know how to be more effective with other strategies. They have good aim and can snipe from across the map, they know the map well and can cover multiple paths with an assault rifle that doesn't have to reload as often, and they understand player habits which allow them to time someone emerging from cover only to receive a shotgun blast to the face.

Being skilled with the grenade launcher against good players is actually extremely difficult. They know how to duck behind cover so you have to predict when they will step out and fire the explosive beforehand. They know to take underused routes, leaving you in a 1v1 situation where you get to make only 1 shot and then they can step out and kill you because you have no backup, which means you can never miss. If you step out of cover to use your grenade launcher you are likely to get sniped, which means you have to stay in close-quarters and yet somehow not blow yourself up.

Zelda is much like the Noobtube. She has powerful attacks but they require precision and timing, since they are actually quite slow. More importantly, SHE is slow, and thus getting into the position to use her attacks requires foresight. Low-level players are often slow and predictable, and, just like the noobtube, Zelda can create a seemingly impassable wall if her opponents do not mix up or hide their intentions as well as have the speed to get through her defenses. At a high level, however, it is pretty easy to overwhelm Zelda with speed, baits, or careful play. She can be outcamped, she can be rushed, and she can be baited and punished. While many characters have those problems, she is pretty bad at camping and rushing, and baits don't work if everyone knows that's your only option.

Well like i have said i found the best way to beat her is using an umpredictable character like Wolf whos smash attacks are hard to time and has really awkward hitboxes that has more than once allowed me to dodge an incoming attack.

Now since you seem to know alot of competitive play i would like to ask you this (actual question im not trying to mock you in any way): How are heavy characters in the competitive scene cause every time i see high end comepetitive games all i see are Foxes, Falcos, Sheiks and other fast moving characters, i was just curious if all that time im planing on mastering Bowser in Wii U will be in vain cause slow characters are useless in the comeptitive scene.

 

[4tlas]

Well like i have said i found the best way to beat her is using an umpredictable character like Wolf whos smash attacks are hard to time and has really awkward hitboxes that has more than once allowed me to dodge an incoming attack.

Now since you seem to know alot of competitive play i would like to ask you this (actual question im not trying to mock you in any way): How are heavy characters in the competitive scene cause every time i see high end comepetitive games all i see are Foxes, Falcos, Sheiks and other fast moving characters, i was just curious if all that time im planing on mastering Bowser in Wii U will be in vain cause slow characters are useless in the comeptitive scene.

Foxes, Falcos, and Sheiks are dominant in Melee competition. The dominant characters in Melee were ported over mostly intact (some buffs some nerfs) to Project M, and while they are not all as dominant as they are in Melee, many competitive Melee players still play both games. That might be why you see so many Foxes, Falcos, and Sheiks. In Project M, it is totally possible to do well with a slow character. The tiers are not nearly as pronounced as in other games. There is plenty of content of slow characters doing well, though it is sometimes difficult to find if you don't know where to look.

As for SmashU, I have to admit I don't know much. Bowser is not nearly as slow in that game though, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[Krauserlols]

Foxes, Falcos, and Sheiks are dominant in Melee competition. The dominant characters in Melee were ported over mostly intact (some buffs some nerfs) to Project M, and while they are not all as dominant as they are in Melee, many competitive Melee players still play both games. That might be why you see so many Foxes, Falcos, and Sheiks. In Project M, it is totally possible to do well with a slow character. The tiers are not nearly as pronounced as in other games. There is plenty of content of slow characters doing well, though it is sometimes difficult to find if you don't know where to look.

As for SmashU, I have to admit I don't know much. Bowser is not nearly as slow in that game though, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

Im more worried about my friend who is a fan of Ganondorf and while hes faster in that game hes still a slower captain falcon wich is sad and bad at the same time.

But you get me point, and im talking about all smashes the fastest characters are usually the most prominent on tournaments and the only slow characters i have seen anywhere near the top has been DK and that one Ike who made me almost **** my pants in tension as he was literaly predicting every move of his foe. Kinda scary actually.

 

[4tlas]

In Project M, even the slow characters are fine. In SmashU, I believe Ganondorf is pretty much dumpster tier. Again, I don't know much about SmashU.

Remember that in that game there are no movement methods aside from your run speed, jump speed, and any moves that cause you to move. Ganondorf is terrible for all of those in addition to having no projectile or disjoint (moves that reach further than his body), so he will be outmaneuvered and outranged by everyone in the game. At least in Project M he also has the ability to wavedash and his moves have been buffed to try and compensate for his lack of speed and range.

 

[Krauserlols]

In Project M, even the slow characters are fine. In SmashU, I believe Ganondorf is pretty much dumpster tier. Again, I don't know much about SmashU.

Remember that in that game there are no movement methods aside from your run speed, jump speed, and any moves that cause you to move. Ganondorf is terrible for all of those in addition to having no projectile or disjoint (moves that reach further than his body), so he will be outmaneuvered and outranged by everyone in the game. At least in Project M he also has the ability to wavedash and his moves have been buffed to try and compensate for his lack of speed and range.

Tell me about it the second i picked Gnnondorf in project M it still wasnt Gannondorf but hell it was much closer to how he would work. Sometimes i wonder whats in Mijamoto's mind...

 

[4tlas]

Tell me about it the second i picked Gnnondorf in project M it still wasnt Gannondorf but hell it was much closer to how he would work. Sometimes i wonder whats in Mijamoto's mind...

Miyamoto didn't design SmashBros, Sakurai did. Captain Falcon had no fighting game moveset so Sakurai came up with one for Smash64. The game was such a hit that they made Melee almost immediately for the Gamecube but Nintendo wanted it to be a launch title so it had less than 1 year of development time. Ganondorf made it in at the last second but they didn't have time to develop a full set of animations for him, so a moveset was derived from Captain Falcon so that they could easily share animations (since they already had similar bone builds).

 

[Strong Badam]

Take it to the tier list thread. One character's perceived viability doesn't warrant its own thread.