Why is Yoshi so freaking impossible?

[scalpel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q38QWNEm8 Examples of spacing vs Yoshi. Notice at how I often get juggled and thrown around like a rag doll. It's unavoidable in this match-up vs Yoshi.

Of all the characters in the game (including Sheik and Diddy), I find Yoshi to be the most challenging match-up for Palutena. At least with the other top tiers like Sheik and Diddy, I feel like I have options, such as reflecting Sheik's needles and therefore zoning her successfully, reflecting Diddy's bananas, gimping Diddy's up-B recovery, etc.

With Yoshi, everything about him feels superior to Palutena.
-His projectile can be controlled so that it arcs over Palutena's reflect wall and land on her.
-He gets virtually no hit-stun, so the flinch from Palutena's jab absolutely cannot set up for a grab follow-up.
-The game prioritizes all of his attacks over Palutena's. Rarely does Yoshi "clank" with Palutena's attacks; they simply override her moves and connect on her.
-His multi-hit attacks poke through shield and even Counter fails often, even though multi-hit attacks are supposed to be easy bait for Counter.
-All of his attacks are unpunishable, even though Palutena is designed to be a punisher. Literally nothing is punishable except for Yoshi's down-B from the air, but even that is protected by the star projectiles that fly out from either side.
-His long range tether-grabs are quick and cannot be punished either.
-Don't get me started on his side-B. Yoshi players don't use it often but I find it harder to punish than any other moving special like Wario's bike, Bowser Jr's kart, even Sonic's roll is more easily punished.

It's like the game bows down to Yoshi and grants him everything. Everything goes his way, and you're just along for the ride. Every fight with Yoshi is a struggle.

Thoughts?

I just don't get why a character like Yoshi has so much going for him, yet a character like Palutena cannot have the same treatment. What goes on in Sakurai's mind?

Better projectile: Yoshi
Better zoning and spacing options: Yoshi
Better approaching options: Yoshi
Better defensive options: Yoshi
Better offensive options: Yoshi

So at this point, Sakurai says "Hmm, so to balance Yoshi's positives, let's give him zero negative attributes. There, balanced."

"Now, to balance Palutena, let's give her the worst lag imaginable in the entire game on 98% of her moves. We'll let her keep her godly jab, and then we'll throw Palutena into the wolves to fend for herself. Sounds fun and exciting. Balanced."

????????!!!

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

When it comes to Yoshi you seriously need to stay the hell away from him in the air. Every trade imaginable is not in our favor. This matchup is super skewed for anything but the top teir and the only way to have a fighting chance is to have extensive knowledge of the matchup. You need to learn the most common Yoshi set ups and how to counter them. One example is the Yoshi jab pressure on shield. I'm sure you've experienced it before when a Yoshi just starts wailing on your shield. Palutena can simply shield DI away and once at a safe distance jab and act from their. Yoshi's weight and floatyness means he suffers a lot less hitstun than the rest of the cast so at earlier percentages he's able to nair punish anything that hasn't been spaced out to respect him.

OOS Uair can mess up a Yoshi who's commited to a down B at kill percentages. In general Uair is your best aerial since Yoshi deals poorly with characters below him and its hitbox is disjointed. His Dair is scary but is slow and can be seen coming from a mile away.

Don't be negative about the situation. Without tough MUs to master we would never get good at our character. Like I said, study Yoshi and learn hin inside out. Every option has an amswer.

 

[soru]

In this matchup it feels like Palutena should be much more defensive/patient. Don't challenge him in the air because he will wreck you, and try not to use too many smash attacks in neutral because you will never catch him with that. Poking him with jab is a good thing but be wary of nair because he has nearly no landing lag and can nair -> jab. Don't counter too much cause we all know how bad of a move it is.

If he gets you in the air and tries to fish out for a uair, air dodge is usually a good option but good yoshis will try to bait those. In that case, warping helps reset yourself to neutral (and depending on the stage, edge cancelled warps will greatly help you get out of bad situations in the air!)

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

I went ahead and merged your posts. Please be careful next time not to double-post; you can opt to edit your posts to avoid double-posting. @ scalpel @ GdspdUblkprzdnt

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I went ahead and merged your posts. Please be careful next time not to double-post; you can opt to edit your posts to avoid double-posting. @ scalpel @ GdspdUblkprzdnt

AEROLINK, I ONLY DID IT TO SATIRIZE OP I SWEAR. PLEASE DON'T CHASTIZE ME FOR AN ATTEMPT AT COMIC RELIEF :'(.
YOU'RE MY HERO AND I FEEL LIKE I'VE LET YOU DOWN.

 

[Masque]

It's like the game bows down to Yoshi and grants him everything. Everything goes his way, and you're just along for the ride. Every fight with Yoshi is a struggle.

Thoughts?

First, I absolutely love your videos. They're basically my bible of Palutena, and you really opened my eyes to the zoning potential our goddess possesses.

Concerning Yoshi, however, I played two this morning: one win, one loss. I agree that he is one of the hardest matchups for Palu, especially because he has ridiculous priority on his moves. Palu's jab clanks with his dash attack, but we have longer hitlag on the clank, so he can punish with a jab of his own or a SH Nair (which comes out immediately, lol). Jabbing does work as a decent means of intercepting his aerials, and one hit almost guarantees that he'll get locked in for a solid 8% and then knocked far enough away to reset. How does our Utilt compare to his aerials in terms of priority? Dair is really obviously telegraphed and almost always negates shield because Palu is so tall, but it would be nice if we could use Utilt to catch an airborne Yoshi hoping to cross us up with an aerial.

One other thing I noticed is that reflecting eggs from mid-range works nicely to limit their options. Reflect from too far away and the opponent will be able to shield. Put up your barrier at mid-range, however, and you greatly limit their momentum. If they rush at you, they get hit with their own egg and possibly a dash attack if you decide to chase; if they shield, they leave themselves open to get grabbed (and Dthrown, and Naired/etc.). Granted, this is all from personal experience, so it might have just been a strategy that worked against this particular Yoshi.

Hopefully we can find some solid ideas for dealing with that dastardly dino!

 

[Forty4]

Just a little bit of input: punishing Down-B is easy as dodging, shielding, etc. and then punishing. Also, if you see a Yoshi use his double jump, (try to) hit him (downwards; his air speed is tied for first so he can recover horizontally) off stage. After that, he only has his Egg Toss, which isn't all that great. His DJ only has heavy armor, so you can hit him out of it. But for MU experience, I have none. :/ I'll try to get the other Yoshis over here.

 

[Forty4]

If you shield the first hit of Egg Roll, I believe you're able to punish Yoshi, but any decent Yoshi doesn't use that move, but hey.

 

[Maraphy]

I've always found him to be one of the easiest top tier characters to fight as Palutena, actually. Just make sure you ALWAYS respect the egg throw and never let yourself get hit with it, as that's how they set up... pretty much everything. That said, you do have to play very defensively. Luckily, Yoshi doesn't have too many hard-to-see-coming moves other than grab and N-air, so it's not that hard to play defensive imo.

Also, b-air can come in handy!

 

[Forty4]

Also, Yoshi can't get anything off of his throws, except possibly an U-Air from a D-Throw. And yes, respect the Eggs. Harrassment, space control, so many uses. If you shield his dash attack, you might be able to punish, as well as being able to punish his D-Air if you see it coming (at least if the player lands with it; bad landing lag).

 

[Forty4]

Also, Yoshi isn't top tier, probably top ten, but then again it seems as though the top ten characters are the top tier.

 

[JayWon]

I've always found him to be one of the easiest top tier characters to fight as Palutena, actually. Just make sure you ALWAYS respect the egg throw and never let yourself get hit with it, as that's how they set up... pretty much everything. That said, you do have to play very defensively. Luckily, Yoshi doesn't have too many hard-to-see-coming moves other than grab and N-air, so it's not that hard to play defensive imo.

Also, b-air can come in handy!

I agree, Yoshi is one of the easiest top tiers to deal with. B-air beats all of his attacks. His rolls are so freaking slow. Idk.. single jab on the ground and B-air in the air is plenty enough to deal with Yoshi sufficiently IMO.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

You can't go aggressive against Yoshi. Just run away and b-air. don't try to punish yoshi too much. Yoshi can just throw out random moves and not get caught since he has little cool down on all his moves. Yoshi's love to stick out a random n-air. So give them a random dash attack/b-air to deal with.

 

[Slice~]

You can't go aggressive against Yoshi. Just run away and b-air. don't try to punish yoshi too much. Yoshi can just throw out random moves and not get caught since he has little cool down on all his moves. Yoshi's love to stick out a random n-air. So give them a random dash attack/b-air to deal with.

That's the thing people keep ignoring: Yoshi does not have these super low cooldowns in the air like everyone thinks.
He just got some stealth windups (FAir) and besides BAir not a single aerial move has much windup AND ending lag (like Marios FAir e.g.).
The fact that Yoshi can both throw out moves that have almost no windup (NAir) OR no ending lag (FAir) makes everyone think "Yoshi has no lag on his aerials, at all" which is just plain false.

There are so many windows when Yoshi can't do **** in the air, but people refuse to capitalize on them.

I've seen so many Sheiks getting punished after a missed FAir and guess what: none of Yoshis moves are as fast as that.
Same for Mario e.g.: his moves are just faster than Yoshis.
His DAir is Yoshis DAir in fast (but weaker), his UpAir is faster (but weaker), and so are BAir and maybe (?) even NAir.

Yoshi has no solid defensive hitbox below him while in the air.
NAir might be fast, but the hitbox is inside him.
DAir is slow and lacks priority.
People are hyping Yoshis moveset in the air way too hard, just because his X-Speed is so high.

Yes, ofc it's hard to get strings on him.
But it's not that hard to punish Yoshis lag windows in the air while playing the neutral game.

Overall: no, don't play super defensive, we'll just wreck your **** with egg spam.
Go a little aggressive and try landing SINGLE hits.

And just don't have too much fear of approaching a Yoshi, we love your anxiety and will abuse it, believe me.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I really don't think Palutena has an optimal toolkit for dealing with Yoshi in a no-customs environment. Palutena, from my understanding, relies almost exclusively on her jabs and full-hop B-airs and F-airs for racking up damage, and when I'm playing Yoshi, those moves just don't feel threatening enough to interrupt my almost free egg game against her.

My advice is to be patient, powershield everything and punish Yoshi's short-hop egg approaches with b-air. Good luck and godspeed, little ladies, because you will need it.