Why is Toon Link bad?

[B.W.]

He's as mobile as I know he is. Which is not really at all. He has gained slight mobility from Melee, but he's still slow, he still has a longer jumpsquat than most characters and he has a bad wavedash. Once people get in his bubble he can be abused pretty hard because every move he has is highly unsafe, including his boomerang (which is why being able to beat out his boomerang is a big deal) and his arrows (they have longish start up even when you just pop an arrow out). The source of this is I do it almost every week playing Lazarond and ITALIAN N1NJA.

Fox out mobilizes Link and he has lasers. He can literally just run away laser around Link all day until he needs to go in for the U-Smash. A lot of people don't play Fox like this, but this is one of the reason Fox is one of the best characters in Melee and in PM.

Falco's lasers are more spammable than Link's projectiles, often keeping Link from being able to even pull his projectiles and forcing him to approach, which is a bad thing for Link. For these two it's not about how soon Link can kill them, it's about who has the stronger presence in neutral, and both Fox and Falco do very well against Link's neutral.

Mario's weakness isn't swords it's being stuffed. In PM that somewhat comes down to swords because pretty much nobody has better priority than Mario. Sword characters don't need better priority they have disjoints. That being said, Mario beat's Link because Link's sword attacks are slow and laggy, and Mario does not need to approach. All he has to do is throw fireballs and it's the same situation as Falco but worse because they bounce. Link can N-Air through the fireballs, but because he has to approach he's at a disadvantage because he's bringing his bubble to Mario. Mario can combo Link to death and he can gimp Link fairly easy, AGT or not.

Meta Knight beats Link because he's got high mobility and because he has multiple jumps. He just has to take the fight to the air and use his amazing D-Air. Link can't do much because MK can dance around him and kind of hover in a spot that he can't touch.

Funny thing is, T.Link doesn't outright lose to Falco, Mario or MK. He goes even with all of them.

 

[leekslap]

saying that bad mobility doesnt affect viability sort of goes against everything in the melee based engine..

links definitely a great character, but it IS apparent that he doesnt handle pressure well. his boomerang is good, but its not god. a quick character with a good WD OOS, good mobility on the ground, and an approach option that can eat through the rang will be able to navigate his maze of projectiles and invade his space easily. tinks rang might be slower, but his greater mobility and quicker options up close make up for that. its also out for longer, goes farther, has wayy more angles, and i think might be a bit bigger too.

links range also might rival some of the other sword characters, but it doesnt quite beat it. he still cant outrange marths ftilt and fsmash, and he cant outrange roys ftilt, nor does he have the speed or OOS options to deal with their pressure.

this being said, its no doubt the links projectiles from neutral, specifically his quicker boomerang, create a different dynamic from neutral that gives many trouble. but once you get past neutral, it goes downhill for link relative to toon link, and its not like TL has trouble in neutral by any means. theres obviously MUs where the superior range and speed of the boomerang of link makes for a better MU than what toon link might have. but i think link also has more MUs that are more difficult than TLs would be because of his slower pace up close, and lack of good mobility. in the end, i think theyre both up there, and im not going to jump to conclusion about whos better, but i think its not out of the realm of possibility at all that TL could be potentially surpass link with the transition to 3.5. recovery nerfs across the board being the main one that would come into play here.

Was there a point to this? Did you read what I said?

 

[G13_Flux]

yes, it was to further discuss your points about people pressuring link, as well as to discuss his boomerang. i wouldnt say its toxic broken like you described, as you CAN deal with it if your character has the mobility options. and it was also to say that links lack of mobility definitely hinders him in certain MUs.

many of my ideas were entangled with other ideas that were meant to be in response to you, i could have made it more organized. but yes, there was in fact a point to it, and yes, i read the posts that i respond to.

 

[leekslap]

He's as mobile as I know he is. Which is not really at all. He has gained slight mobility from Melee, but he's still slow, he still has a longer jumpsquat than most characters and he has a bad wavedash. Once people get in his bubble he can be abused pretty hard because every move he has is highly unsafe, including his boomerang (which is why being able to beat out his boomerang is a big deal) and his arrows (they have longish start up even when you just pop an arrow out). The source of this is I do it almost every week playing Lazarond and ITALIAN N1NJA.

Fox out mobilizes Link and he has lasers. He can literally just run away laser around Link all day until he needs to go in for the U-Smash. A lot of people don't play Fox like this, but this is one of the reason Fox is one of the best characters in Melee and in PM.

Falco's lasers are more spammable than Link's projectiles, often keeping Link from being able to even pull his projectiles and forcing him to approach, which is a bad thing for Link. For these two it's not about how soon Link can kill them, it's about who has the stronger presence in neutral, and both Fox and Falco do very well against Link's neutral.

Mario's weakness isn't swords it's being stuffed. In PM that somewhat comes down to swords because pretty much nobody has better priority than Mario. Sword characters don't need better priority they have disjoints. That being said, Mario beat's Link because Link's sword attacks are slow and laggy, and Mario does not need to approach. All he has to do is throw fireballs and it's the same situation as Falco but worse because they bounce. Link can N-Air through the fireballs, but because he has to approach he's at a disadvantage because he's bringing his bubble to Mario. Mario can combo Link to death and he can gimp Link fairly easy, AGT or not.

Meta Knight beats Link because he's got high mobility and because he has multiple jumps. He just has to take the fight to the air and use his amazing D-Air. Link can't do much because MK can dance around him and kind of hover in a spot that he can't touch.

Funny thing is, T.Link doesn't outright lose to Falco, Mario or MK. He goes even with all of them.

But since Fox's lasers don't have hitstun, he can camped. And one grab and Fox's stock is just gone.

I don't like to repeat what I've already said. This goes for you G13_Flux. Instead, I'll agree to disagree and say that this MU is even or 55-45 in Link's favor.

MK's dair is overrated IMO. I use it for mixups and movement, but it's very predictable. Also, last time I checked Link can throw his boomerang and bomb upwards. Also, Link can do up air chains FOR DAYS, and techchase him with no effort, and kill him really early with down throw to dair, AND outrange him.

Meta Knight beats Tink btw. Slightly but whatevs

 

[B.W.]

Fox's lasers don't need hitstun. He can still run and gun and camp because he's so fast and can SHDL. Grabbing an actual good Fox should happen rarely as any tether grab character (save maybe Lucas) because his DD is that good.

MK is the same case, he's so fast that you should be getting touched rarely. Link can only throw his boomerang at slight angles, which are pretty easy to get around once you know how far it can be thrown and how little the angle really is. Bombs can only go straight forward or straight up (unless you do very obvious bomb punts). So if you want it to be at a higher spot you have to jump.

MK doesn't beat T.Link either. It's honestly probably 50-50 with the only things effecting the match partially being the stage selected.

 

[Thor]

I think Toon Link is put low on the CT tier list because he's "less good" then everyone else. Sure, he has some solid tools, but... everyone else does too.

Ranking people into a tier list is not easy for a new meta, and I think CT's list had WAY too many tiers, first and foremost, but they also used a 1 to 10 ranking system - I don't think any character is really lower than a 6 (I used to think Falcon and Ganon were, but the resized character models makes it harder for Falco to safely DI Ganondorf fair/bair (killing him even earlier than Melee) and both have better recoveries than I originally gave credit for).

The problem is, so many characters can do so many awesome things that when I look at someone like Toon Link, who doesn't (at least from what I've seen) have anything really awesome, he just gets marked down as "not as good" and then when he's compared to everyone, and has "not as good" on him for every single character, he's at the bottom.

Not that I think he loses every MU either - I don't know how much more viable as a character Bowser is (if he is viable at all), but I think TL certainly beats Bowser.

Also if they have GnW low, that's just silly - huge disjoints, silly good recovery, incredibly powerful smashes, [he'll have a new DACUS! No idea if any good but whatever], KO aerials - GnW is a scary creature. Super light and a Lucario-like shield though (or maybe Lucario stole his shield lol).

He's as mobile as I know he is. Which is not really at all. He has gained slight mobility from Melee, but he's still slow, he still has a longer jumpsquat than most characters and he has a bad wavedash. Once people get in his bubble he can be abused pretty hard because every move he has is highly unsafe, including his boomerang (which is why being able to beat out his boomerang is a big deal) and his arrows (they have longish start up even when you just pop an arrow out). The source of this is I do it almost every week playing Lazarond and ITALIAN N1NJA.

Fox out mobilizes Link and he has lasers. He can literally just run away laser around Link all day until he needs to go in for the U-Smash. A lot of people don't play Fox like this, but this is one of the reason Fox is one of the best characters in Melee and in PM.

Falco's lasers are more spammable than Link's projectiles, often keeping Link from being able to even pull his projectiles and forcing him to approach, which is a bad thing for Link. For these two it's not about how soon Link can kill them, it's about who has the stronger presence in neutral, and both Fox and Falco do very well against Link's neutral.

Mario's weakness isn't swords it's being stuffed. In PM that somewhat comes down to swords because pretty much nobody has better priority than Mario. Sword characters don't need better priority they have disjoints. That being said, Mario beat's Link because Link's sword attacks are slow and laggy, and Mario does not need to approach. All he has to do is throw fireballs and it's the same situation as Falco but worse because they bounce. Link can N-Air through the fireballs, but because he has to approach he's at a disadvantage because he's bringing his bubble to Mario. Mario can combo Link to death and he can gimp Link fairly easy, AGT or not.

Meta Knight beats Link because he's got high mobility and because he has multiple jumps. He just has to take the fight to the air and use his amazing D-Air. Link can't do much because MK can dance around him and kind of hover in a spot that he can't touch.

Funny thing is, T.Link doesn't outright lose to Falco, Mario or MK. He goes even with all of them.

Link's boomerang is actually almost always positive on shield XD. Link's zone can also be better preserved with good use of zair and his extremely useful fair (it's like 0 on shield if well-placed).

Fox shouldn't be able to out-camp Link, not easily at least - Link can stand center stage throwing stuff and only needs one thing to hit to capitalize and take a stock, or at least a large chunk of percent. Link shielding when Fox wants usmash is also a free up+B OoS or grab which can lead to a bunch of bad things. Fox shield pressure is obnoxious but one error will be (with a smart Link catching a small error) a bomb to reset to neutral or (more often, more risky though since it opens you to usmash, etc. - more rewarding so all Links love this) up+B or nair OoS.

Falco lasers are obnoxious but you can just mash jump and throw boomerang and move in - if Falco is camping Link in PM Link is doing it very very wrong, since Falco's not even that much faster than Link (he's not Fox fast). Falco combos are really strong though, and this isn't an easier MU for Link (though it's far from undoable).

Fox and Falco do well in neutral but if you are very quick at knowing how to deal with their lasers the lasers are ultimately a non-issue - they add percent but no good Link should ever be locked down by Falco laser use or eating a lot of percent from Fox lasers since Link's bombs and boomerangs can limit Fox's space and Link can use his improved aerials and sword range to try to clamp Fox down.

Mario Link is probably pro-Link - you talk about Mario not having to approach but Link can just boomerang through fireballs while plucking bombs and throwing them long-range, or at mid-range clanking out the important fireballs with bombs while trying to limit Mario's air space with the boomerang. If Link HAS to approach in this MU I need to see footage of the Mario because I just can't believe that exists - the Mario pretty much ALWAYS has to approach (or has to be willing to cape things - I've fought that Mario, and as Link with an 8 minute timer, even if I'm down, if it's not a stock I give them 6 good minutes to start approaching, and I don't approach if I'm in the lead at all - I give them 6 minutes to see if patience will wear down, and also so that I have 2 minutes to start something - usually ample time but better safe than sorry). For what it's worth, most Marios I see camping other people (Ganondorfs, etc.) fight me and complain my Link is super campy XD.

MK doesn't beat Link - first of all, I'm not even sure L-cancelled dair is safe on shield (for what it's worth, I fought an MK who was very consistent at L-cancelling dairs on shield - I got him with up+B OoS every single time, even when he tried to shield right away), and Link's uair beats out MK dair (Link's bigger disjoint beats it out, and you can FFL-Cancel the uair to avoid MK just landing a second dair or whatever), and since his dair is rather telegraphed in my opinion (at least as a Brawl player I'm always looking for it going up, even though it's not as good in PM), I don't think "MK's amazing dair" matters much. If MK is using multiple jumps he's a sitting duck for bombs or uairs as he's landing - MK doesn't want to be flying high in this MU, only flying to get around Link's boomerang at best.

Link's boomerang is awesome but it's far from unbeatable - it's used for combo extensions, making grabs less unsafe, and mostly it's used for limiting your opponent's movement options.

I think Link does as well as TL in all the matchups you described above. The Link boards seem fairly sure that Link has no bad MUs (he's kind of broken) with some arguing Falco is hard MU (same for Pit and Mewtwo). But I sincerely doubt MK is a hard MU - Link's projectiles all answer DDing very well (boomerang for mid-range DD and bombs for long-range DD).

Personally, I think in PM Link's other tools are now good enough to where TL being a bit more mobile doesn't do enough to say he's better than Link - although I think TL is well-balanced, just that most other characters are really strong.

 

[B.W.]

Fox is able to outcamp Link because he's capable of staying out of that range. If Link is in the center of, let's say PS2, a full range boomerang won't reach Fox if he's at the edge, only a fully charged arrow and a thrown bomb will reach Fox, which are easy to just jump over. If Link tries to get a little closer Fox is capable of getting around Link, especially if he has platforms. Your only solution really is to choose a smaller stage vs Fox, but that's not usually an option because good Fox players that intend to outcamp Link as Fox will ban the stages for that. And even if they don't, the smaller stages are better for Fox because he has an easier time getting inside.

Falco's lasers can stop Link's projectiles from even coming out. Your solution of jumping over them with a boomerang isn't 100% sound. It's just not that simple. If Link is moving forward throwing out a move Falco has high priority moves that will cut through the boomerang and let Falco start his combos. Falco certainly can't outcamp him forever, but getting hit by one laser as Link is a very unfortunate situation to be in. Falco uses his lasers to get inside and do his combos. Most Falco players don't SHL with the intent of running away, but rather the intent of making people come closer. He can also combo off of his lasers. Falco doesn't ever have to approach Link so that's a problem for Link.

Boomerang doesn't cut through fireballs, they stop each other. Fireballs come out much faster and stop every projectile Link has except for a fully charged arrow. They also bounce and depending on how high Mario is, they have very different trajectories which can make it dangerous to jump. I've spoken to Lazarond about this matchup before, arguably our best Link player here in the MW, and he agrees that the matchup isn't good for Link. When I spoke to him he said if you want to win as Link or T.Link you have to be willing to get in close, and once you're in close there's a lot to worry about. You can get through fireballs with N-Air and sometimes you can throw a boomerang in any holes you may see.

Here's a match of Ellis (Mario) vs Laz (Link): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2OvUJ6ssoQ

Fireballs are literally Mario's best option like 90% of the time. He can approach with them, run away with them, whatever. It's stupid. They've pretty much already been confirmed for getting a nerf to what they were before 2.5 which (I think) is when they became what they are now. Ellis is probably the only Mario player I've seen use fireballs to that extend. No one is willing to be that much of a ******* with them. People honestly don't even really think that Ellis is that great, and that fireballs carry him pretty hard. It's a shame that no one else has exploited fireballs to the extent Ellis does, while also being better at using the character as a whole.

And for a little bit about Laz, he makes top 8 at our weeklies and monthlies any time he plays Link or T.Link. He's beaten Kels more than once in GFs, and often beats a lot of our other top players. He made 5th place at UFGT10 in PM as well, and he got out of pools in losers and ended up climbing all the way up to top 8. Obviously I'm saying this because this way everyone knows that his input definitely matters.

MK also doesn't beat Link and the reason isn't soley D-Air. Also, D-Air isn't a move for challenging, it's for punishing whiffs most characters with a disjoint can beat it Using D-Air to challenge stuff is a very rookie move. MK beats Link because he's fast on the ground and he's got multiple jumps. Mobile characters give Link a hard time because they can easily get around his projectiles and because they can stay on top of Link. Multi jump characters are also fairly good at getting around projectiles. So MK can do both of these things, and thanks to this he plays a pretty good bait and punish game. MK is also one of the few characters that can knock Link off stage and keep him off.

Boomerang is easily Link's projectile though. It covers him on return, it lets him take out his bombs on retreat, it can make grabs safe. It's a fantastic projectile. But it's not even close to the best projectile in the game. You'll have to talk to Pit for that.