Why is Smash's selection AND portrayal of Zelda characters so... weird?

[Quillion]

Your reaction: we get two Zelda newcomers but they are Echoes. We get Ocarina of Time Adult Link as a Link Echo, and Impa as a Sheik Echo. Each have some differences in their moveset close as Ken. Like y / n ?

I absolutely want "Classic Link" as Link's echo. They can easily recycle the animations from Smash 4 to bring TP Link back, then add OoT Link on top (with Nobuyuki Hiyama voice) as his alt. All they need to do is remove the wind effect from Gale Boomerang so it fits for both alts, and we're good.

And no, Young Link is not good enough. He's too light to be the Link I appreciate.

 

[Diddy Kong]

TP Link I wouldn't know. He's not as important on the timeline as Ocarina of Time Link. I mainly would like to see it because Ganondorf, Sheik and Young Link are also Ocarina of Time based, and having Link would almost make the Melee Zelda cast complete. Also, then there would be a Link without his Remote Bombs, and of course the hookshot grab back. So it's a huge trade-off, and that makes it worth the Echo addition I would say.

Speaking of the Remote Bombs, they could be added to Impa's moveset instead of the Sheik Side B. Which is a kind of weird and out of place attack anyway. They could've better opted for the Deku Nuts. And if Impa wouldn't get the Remote Bombs, Deku Nuts would also be fine. I'm not sure which Impa they would choose now, as World of Light had OoT Impa.

But I doubt Impa could get in easily because she needs a recent appearnce probably. Skyward Sword remake would seal the deal nicely. A prequel to Breath of the Wild that takes places 100 years prior to BotW would also probably feature Impa with a more important role. As said before, I think the Sheikah theme of BotW is probably gonna stick around for a while in future games. I'm just not sure what to expect directly after BotW as the next 3D game. As for now, Link's Awakening is coming, and Link to the Past is rumored. These games don't have Impa.

 

[pupNapoleon]

But they're extremely similar in the games proper. Falco pilots the exact same ship as Fox and Wolf's Wolfen also have similar characteristics to Arwings. Not sure how making up even more stuff leads to better representation.

I agree with you fully.
I used to think each character being fully unique was the best option for the overall roster.
But when I think of, say, Diddy and Dixie, I would be completely irked if they didnt function slightly similarly.
Some characters being closer to others, but not exactly the same, actually adds better breadth to the world from which they come.

And in other instances, like in Pokemon, I just wish they stood for something greater than themselves. Like Pokemon Trainer with team battling.
If only we got Eevee utilizing the premise of evolutions, and a Team Rocket with Meowth utilizing the capture mechanic of the holy Pokeball item.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

Ganondorf's moveset has evolved since Super Smash Bros. Melee and he cannot be defined as a echo fighter of Captain Falcon (though it's not really what you said). His moveset is pretty correct for the character he is and it has changed enough to make him unique. Though, I agree that having 3 damn Links is deceiving and I just wish they could just delete/change Toon Link. Keeping Young Link as the "old Link's moveset" and Link as "New Link's moveset" is enough.

 

[Arthur97]

TP Link I wouldn't know. He's not as important on the timeline as Ocarina of Time Link. I mainly would like to see it because Ganondorf, Sheik and Young Link are also Ocarina of Time based, and having Link would almost make the Melee Zelda cast complete. Also, then there would be a Link without his Remote Bombs, and of course the hookshot grab back. So it's a huge trade-off, and that makes it worth the Echo addition I would say.

Speaking of the Remote Bombs, they could be added to Impa's moveset instead of the Sheik Side B. Which is a kind of weird and out of place attack anyway. They could've better opted for the Deku Nuts. And if Impa wouldn't get the Remote Bombs, Deku Nuts would also be fine. I'm not sure which Impa they would choose now, as World of Light had OoT Impa.

But I doubt Impa could get in easily because she needs a recent appearnce probably. Skyward Sword remake would seal the deal nicely. A prequel to Breath of the Wild that takes places 100 years prior to BotW would also probably feature Impa with a more important role. As said before, I think the Sheikah theme of BotW is probably gonna stick around for a while in future games. I'm just not sure what to expect directly after BotW as the next 3D game. As for now, Link's Awakening is coming, and Link to the Past is rumored. These games don't have Impa.

And he'd be left-handed.

I actually really like the idea of OoT Link as an echo (well, I'd have switched them).

Though, they apparently really prioritize taunts for echoes. Guess you could bring back the fairy, but I'm really not a fan of that Melee taunt. Just what is that? And I think an exception should be made for the original taunt.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I agree with you fully.
I used to think each character being fully unique was the best option for the overall roster.
But when I think of, say, Diddy and Dixie, I would be completely irked if they didnt function slightly similarly.
Some characters being closer to others, but not exactly the same, actually adds better breadth to the world from which they come.

You would also think that with a roster of over 70, where most characters are unique, people would focus less on the clone "problem". But alas, that is not the case and I've seen people scrutinize the issue a bit too much.
I would consider it an actual problem if nearly 50% of the roster were clones, but they consist of only about 20% of it. Extreme example, but I remember a thread made by some guy here saying that Sakurai should be fired for making Daisy a clone (people with too much time tend to get overworked over the small issues). Good times.
I agree with you there, as I also think that being similar with some differences is a healthy approach.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ganondorf's moveset has evolved since Super Smash Bros. Melee and he cannot be defined as a echo fighter of Captain Falcon (though it's not really what you said). His moveset is pretty correct for the character he is and it has changed enough to make him unique. Though, I agree that having 3 damn Links is deceiving and I just wish they could just delete/change Toon Link. Keeping Young Link as the "old Link's moveset" and Link as "New Link's moveset" is enough.

None of the old Melee clones where ever true Echoes. They had subtle differences that where bigger in contrast with the original moveset than Echoes have with their original counterpart. Well, except for Ken. Ken is a weird exception. Isabelle fits the Melee style clone the best out of all the newcomers we've had. But then again, she's got unique attacks, but so did Ganondorf and Pichu.

Ganondorf is still mostly the same as in Brawl and Smash 4 however, but now he has a sword and doesn't suck (just look at Nairo's wreckage with the character!). But I think this is a healthy approach to older semi-clone characters. I will look forward to see them implement more changes to them over time.

And he'd be left-handed.

I actually really like the idea of OoT Link as an echo (well, I'd have switched them).

Though, they apparently really prioritize taunts for echoes. Guess you could bring back the fairy, but I'm really not a fan of that Melee taunt. Just what is that? And I think an exception should be made for the original taunt.

Hmm Link being left handed, would that make an impact on his playstyle as a Echo you'd think? It would be a real nice notch to the Zelda franchise however.

What changes I would implement for Ocarina of Time Hero of Time Link as a Echo of Breath of the Wild Champion Link is quite a lot actually.

-First I'd start with his Bombs obviously. Make them work like they did in Smash 4, that would be cool.
-Then there's the Hookshot, which is a huge advantage over regular Link, but then again, Chrom was superior to Roy for a long time as well, plus Champion Link would still have better edgeguardig due to Remote Bombs
-No sword beam at 0%.
-Make it possible to charge Spin Attack more than Champion Link, and at max charge, it'll have added range and send foes at a similar angle as in Melee, the NTSC version (I personally played PAL, so I want this).
-The fairy taunt comes back, but the vain hair swipe shouldn't. But I have a hard time thinking of something else because Hero of Time Link wasn't exactly very expressive.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I'm almost positive that Ken turned out that way due to Capcom's input. Third parties in Smash are supervised by their owners, so they may have pushed for Ken to be closer to their own vision. Meanwhile with Richter, Konami was more chill and like "it's cool man, he can be a copy of Simon".

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I'd be down for an old lady Impa, but that's me.

On the Link situation, my thought is that all three use the most iconic Link tools in the series. Link has always had other tools, but those tools have always felt more secondary and gimmicky (other than BotW with the tablet vs the boomerang). If you look at Link as a representative of a franchise and not just a game, it makes sense he would use the three we have. That thought gets weird when you have three Links, but still...

I've always been skeptical of the thought that specials are the most important moves to be differentiated. If you look at Ness and Lucas, they share similar specials but have completely different moves otherwise. They can barely be considered semi-clones. I see a lot of people complaining about Toon Link, but he's probably the most faithfully represented Zelda character. I can't see people not complaining about him even if his arrows were changed to something else.

The thing that seems weird to me is that OoT is so overrepresented compared to other games. Sheik could have had that design, while Ganondorf could have represented TP and Young Link could have had Majora's Mask equipment. A huge amount of the series would have been covered it they did that, but they opted for BotW Shiek and OoT Ganondorf instead.

 

[Arthur97]

None of the old Melee clones where ever true Echoes. They had subtle differences that where bigger in contrast with the original moveset than Echoes have with their original counterpart. Well, except for Ken. Ken is a weird exception. Isabelle fits the Melee style clone the best out of all the newcomers we've had. But then again, she's got unique attacks, but so did Ganondorf and Pichu.

Ganondorf is still mostly the same as in Brawl and Smash 4 however, but now he has a sword and doesn't suck (just look at Nairo's wreckage with the character!). But I think this is a healthy approach to older semi-clone characters. I will look forward to see them implement more changes to them over time.


Hmm Link being left handed, would that make an impact on his playstyle as a Echo you'd think? It would be a real nice notch to the Zelda franchise however.

What changes I would implement for Ocarina of Time Hero of Time Link as a Echo of Breath of the Wild Champion Link is quite a lot actually.

-First I'd start with his Bombs obviously. Make them work like they did in Smash 4, that would be cool.
-Then there's the Hookshot, which is a huge advantage over regular Link, but then again, Chrom was superior to Roy for a long time as well, plus Champion Link would still have better edgeguardig due to Remote Bombs
-No sword beam at 0%.
-Make it possible to charge Spin Attack more than Champion Link, and at max charge, it'll have added range and send foes at a similar angle as in Melee, the NTSC version (I personally played PAL, so I want this).
-The fairy taunt comes back, but the vain hair swipe shouldn't. But I have a hard time thinking of something else because Hero of Time Link wasn't exactly very expressive.

Well, since Link's stance isn't mirrored, it should at least have minimal impact. I think it does affect at least one move. For that matter, they could revert his up tilt to the old animation. However, I would like the dash attack to stay the same.

 

[Louisacommie]

Ganondorf's moveset has evolved since Super Smash Bros. Melee and he cannot be defined as a echo fighter of Captain Falcon (though it's not really what you said). His moveset is pretty correct for the character he is and it has changed enough to make him unique. Though, I agree that having 3 damn Links is deceiving and I just wish they could just delete/change Toon Link. Keeping Young Link as the "old Link's moveset" and Link as "New Link's moveset" is enough.

Ganondorf is an ap carry

he uses powerful magic

he is freeza

 

[pupNapoleon]

The thing that seems weird to me is that OoT is so overrepresented compared to other games. Sheik could have had that design, while Ganondorf could have represented TP and Young Link could have had Majora's Mask equipment. A huge amount of the series would have been covered it they did that, but they opted for BotW Shiek and OoT Ganondorf instead.

I have this same thought. I really thought giving each character a different Zelda game as an origin was a brilliant way to cover the series and show the variety of ToZ.
I wouldnt even need it move wise if the designs fit that way!

But a fourth Link just to remove the few changes into this game with champion Link? That's quite honestly ludicrous. Worse than the four Marths.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'd be down for an old lady Impa, but that's me.

On the Link situation, my thought is that all three use the most iconic Link tools in the series. Link has always had other tools, but those tools have always felt more secondary and gimmicky (other than BotW with the tablet vs the boomerang). If you look at Link as a representative of a franchise and not just a game, it makes sense he would use the three we have. That thought gets weird when you have three Links, but still...

I've always been skeptical of the thought that specials are the most important moves to be differentiated. If you look at Ness and Lucas, they share similar specials but have completely different moves otherwise. They can barely be considered semi-clones. I see a lot of people complaining about Toon Link, but he's probably the most faithfully represented Zelda character. I can't see people not complaining about him even if his arrows were changed to something else.

The thing that seems weird to me is that OoT is so overrepresented compared to other games. Sheik could have had that design, while Ganondorf could have represented TP and Young Link could have had Majora's Mask equipment. A huge amount of the series would have been covered it they did that, but they opted for BotW Shiek and OoT Ganondorf instead.

There's really no 'BotW Sheik' honestly. The armor just matches the Sheikah armor of BotW. She's still entirely OoT-based, and I think I really like that because that's her one and only cannon appearance. She was based on OoT in Smash 4 as well. Young Link shamefully isn't represented as his Majora's Mask self, which I would've preffered since that's more of his story than Ocarina of Time, being a child in the whole game and all. I also find the combinations of his equipment weird, the faily weak Kokiri Sword and pathetically weak Deku Shield but he's still shooting Fire Arrows...

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is great however. The design works with his speed buffs, and so do his sword attacks. Imagine Ganondorf swinging the Sage's Sword like he does in Ultimate now for a moment.... It wouldn't work as well. Also consider his sword attacks are taken from Ike's F and U Smash animations, and D Smash comes from Cloud. He had to use a broad sword for this. I think the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is also the most influential of all the other forms Ganondorf has had, and it's also his first appearance.

About Old Impa however, I am also down for it, but I need to see Old Impa in action first in a mainline Zelda game. She can be technically old, and fight much like the BotW Sheikah Monks for example, that would be a great template to base her on. But first I need to see her take action as an older lady in a proper Zelda game. That hasn't happened yet, so I won't support it untill it happens.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

There's really no 'BotW Sheik' honestly. The armor just matches the Sheikah armor of BotW. She's still entirely OoT-based, and I think I really like that because that's her one and only cannon appearance. She was based on OoT in Smash 4 as well. Young Link shamefully isn't represented as his Majora's Mask self, which I would've preffered since that's more of his story than Ocarina of Time, being a child in the whole game and all. I also find the combinations of his equipment weird, the faily weak Kokiri Sword and pathetically weak Deku Shield but he's still shooting Fire Arrows...

Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is great however. The design works with his speed buffs, and so do his sword attacks. Imagine Ganondorf swinging the Sage's Sword like he does in Ultimate now for a moment.... It wouldn't work as well. Also consider his sword attacks are taken from Ike's F and U Smash animations, and D Smash comes from Cloud. He had to use a broad sword for this. I think the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf is also the most influential of all the other forms Ganondorf has had, and it's also his first appearance.

About Old Impa however, I am also down for it, but I need to see Old Impa in action first in a mainline Zelda game. She can be technically old, and fight much like the BotW Sheikah Monks for example, that would be a great template to base her on. But first I need to see her take action as an older lady in a proper Zelda game. That hasn't happened yet, so I won't support it untill it happens.

That's fair. OoT Ganondorf is personally my least favorite design for him, but you're right on the sword. I do like Sheik's new design, though. And I'm aware she doesn't appear in BotW, but her clothes do. So purely on a visual level, Sheik evokes BotW as much as OoT. I was mostly suggesting that she could have leaned into her one canon appearance for the sake of spreading out game representation visually. Sheik is the only character in Smash who has only been in OoT, so it's a little strange that she keeps getting new redesigns to stay modern when other characters are representing different games. It was my attempt to keep something purely OoT if we were to keep one character representing one game.

I don't really expect to see Old Impa fighting any time soon, but it would be pretty sick.

 

[Quillion]

Hmm Link being left handed, would that make an impact on his playstyle as a Echo you'd think? It would be a real nice notch to the Zelda franchise however.

Not really. But it's significant enough that you can't really make OoT/TP Link a simple alt.

What changes I would implement for Ocarina of Time Hero of Time Link as a Echo of Breath of the Wild Champion Link is quite a lot actually.

-First I'd start with his Bombs obviously. Make them work like they did in Smash 4, that would be cool.
-Then there's the Hookshot, which is a huge advantage over regular Link, but then again, Chrom was superior to Roy for a long time as well, plus Champion Link would still have better edgeguardig due to Remote Bombs
-No sword beam at 0%.
-Make it possible to charge Spin Attack more than Champion Link, and at max charge, it'll have added range and send foes at a similar angle as in Melee, the NTSC version (I personally played PAL, so I want this).
-The fairy taunt comes back, but the vain hair swipe shouldn't. But I have a hard time thinking of something else because Hero of Time Link wasn't exactly very expressive.

All that plus there's no double arrow mechanic.

Also I do think TP Link should still be OoT Link's alt, if only because the Smash 4 model and animations are prime for recycling. They would just need to remove the wind effect on Gale Boomerang, though.

 

[Mamboo07]

In my Super Smash Bros. Eternity Ganon has his CD-I design from Faces of Evil and wields Pig Ganon's trident from Link to the Past.
And the Zelda series get a newcomer who is Blight Ganon from BOTW. (combination of the 4 Blights)
Sadly Young and Toon along with Sheik were cut from the roster. (Sorry for that)