Why is she number 1?

[Noxuz]

I wanted to main Rosalina ever since her rumored appearance and I do main her, but at this point in time I see NOTHING at all that makes Rosalina stay strong on that Number 1 spot according to Event Hubs http://prntscr.com/5zvpl2 .

Shes okay but not number 1 all day strong because I see no results with her in tournaments compared to Diddy,shiek, or ZSS so what the heck do you guys think of Rosa that makes her so god like?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For one thing, Rosalina's learning curve is much different from most other fighters in that you're also working with the Luma, and her battle style doesn't completely focus on being aggressive. Those are just a few reasons for why she's not seen as often as the likes of Sheik, Diddy Kong, or Greninja.

 

[Noxuz]

For one thing, Rosalina's learning curve is much different from most other fighters in that you're also working with the Luma, and her battle style doesn't completely focus on being aggressive. Those are just a few reasons for why she's not seen as often as the likes of Sheik, Diddy Kong, or Greninja.

Exactly my point, If we DONT see her alot or at all even, then why are we putting her on this pedestal for being the best?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Exactly my point, If we DONT see her alot or at all even, then why are we putting her on this pedestal for being the best?

If used in the right hands, Rosalina can be one heck of a wrecking ball. We just don't see players trying to master her much, because they want to use the very aggressive fighters instead.

 

[Yokoblue]

Exactly my point, If we DONT see her alot or at all even, then why are we putting her on this pedestal for being the best?

One word: Dabuz

 

[Noxuz]

Again... Why is she number one if no one plays her?


Yeah Dabuz getting bodied in APEX dubs.... really good.

 

[Lavani]

Eventhubs is 50% popularity contest, 50% impressions from casual players mad at the characters they lose to on wifi, and 0% competitively founded. This is why you see highly questionable things like Link in top 10; Rosalina above Diddy and Sheik; Meta Knight, Wario, and Pac-Man below Zelda and Samus; and Olimar/DK in bottom 3 despite both having good tournament representation.

The list isn't good for anything except maybe a look into what the casual side of the playerbase thinks of the game's characters.

 

[Noxuz]

Eventhubs is 50% popularity contest, 50% impressions from casual players mad at the characters they lose to on wifi, and 0% competitively founded. This is why you see highly questionable things like Link in top 10; Rosalina above Diddy and Sheik; Meta Knight, Wario, and Pac-Man below Zelda and Samus; and Olimar/DK in bottom 3 despite both having good tournament representation.

The list isn't good for anything except maybe a look into what the casual side of the playerbase thinks of the game's characters.

I see, so that list is basically useless

 

[Yokoblue]

Again... Why is she number one if no one plays her?


Yeah Dabuz getting bodied in APEX dubs.... really good.

1st: Tier list are never for dubs.
2nd: Dabuz is in Top 8 for singles.
3rd: Like Lavani said, eventhubs is bull**** since your mom can vote
4th: If you want the most "competitive" tier list, look for anthers ladder tier list
5th: Rosalina is not 1st, shes probably top15, arguably top 10.

Why she is:
One of the best defensive character because of Luma that prevent a lot of projectile/grab:
If you look at the top characters, sheik, diddy, ness, luigi, pikachu all have HEAVY grab game, luma help a lot against that since you can hit after a grab with luma which prevent some follow up
Other top character rely at least partially on projectile: ZSS, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Luma block most of them.

Thats only talking about luma being in front of Rosalina, her moveset is solid, a lot of multiple hit moves, lingering hitboxes, average grab, godlike up air etc...

 

[Mrawesome48]

Ness number 5?? not sure what they are smoking. Ness is not in the top 10. Only reason his win rate is high because he pubstomps people who don't know how to play against him. Rosalina i don't think is number 1 but definitely in the top 5. Godlike recovery, Insane damage output with Luma, one of the best edge guarders, Upsmash with Luma makes it nearly impossible to hit her from above and she has a lot of options compared to other top chars(diddy d-throw-upair) People don't want to learn her skills and master her. They want someone that is braindead easy to abuse that nets them wins(Diddy kong)

 

[Ladyspiker]

Well I see it this way: since there is a huge learning curve for playing as Rosalina, there will similarly be a huge learning curve for playing AGAINST her. A really good player is able to predict what move the other will likely do and capitalize off that. Since Rosalina has so many options, this makes it difficult for a good player if the Rosalina player switches up how he/she plays very often.

Also, the game (and Rosalina) is only a few months old. Therefore, Rosalina is the one player you should not hastily make a judgment about (good or bad), and instead be a little open minded when it comes to her placing on these tier lists. I think if you go back to look at the brawl and melee tier lists, they changed quite a bit over the course of 5-10 years, especially for the new characters. Zelda was top 5/10 in melee and went down overtime, and the opposite happened for Jigglypuff.

 

[mario123007]

Eventhubs is 50% popularity contest, 50% impressions from casual players mad at the characters they lose to on wifi, and 0% competitively founded. This is why you see highly questionable things like Link in top 10; Rosalina above Diddy and Sheik; Meta Knight, Wario, and Pac-Man below Zelda and Samus; and Olimar/DK in bottom 3 despite both having good tournament representation.

The list isn't good for anything except maybe a look into what the casual side of the playerbase thinks of the game's characters.

Ok, I often check that website.... so that list isn't ledgit.
Anyway, we will get a solid tierlist soon, any I believe that Rosalina will be in the top 10 or even top 5.

 

[C3CC]

I am no competitive player, but I do think she has what it takes to be number 1...

 

[Gawain]

Pretty much because it's BS to fight against her. Just about every other character can't rely on there normal abilities and you have to rely a lot more on trading single hits instead of pursuing an offensive, since attempting to do that gets you whacked by the luma. She's basically a Brawl character in Smash 4 and since every other character is not designed to function under those circumstances it makes her really easy to win with. I'd even say she invalidates a lot of cast single handedly because of it.

 

[Zonderion]

Pretty much because it's BS to fight against her. Just about every other character can't rely on there normal abilities and you have to rely a lot more on trading single hits instead of pursuing an offensive, since attempting to do that gets you whacked by the luma. She's basically a Brawl character in Smash 4 and since every other character is not designed to function under those circumstances it makes her really easy to win with. I'd even say she invalidates a lot of cast single handedly because of it.

The only reason she can be easy to win with is because the opponents don't know the match up. The moment players learn the match up, the Rosalina HAS to become skilled in her abilities. She is very in depth as far as the learning curve goes. She's easy to play with because people don't know the match ups, but she is far more difficult to master. She is designed for control, not pure speed and not brute strength. Opponents have to respect that. Can you expand on what you mean by classifying her as a Brawl character?

 

[Rosalina _88]

If we want to go by lettered tiers, I would say Rosalina is A Tier, probably in the top five. But my knowledge of her is still very limited. She could go up or down as time goes by.

I've found that I play best with Rosalina when I am calm, relaxed, and able to plan as I play. Though that is probably true for every character, I feel like it goes double for Rosalina. You have to be very focused and careful with her. It's almost as if you have to play to what your opponent will do next, rather than what they are doing right now.

 

[Gawain]

The only reason she can be easy to win with is because the opponents don't know the match up. The moment players learn the match up, the Rosalina HAS to become skilled in her abilities. She is very in depth as far as the learning curve goes. She's easy to play with because people don't know the match ups, but she is far more difficult to master. She is designed for control, not pure speed and not brute strength. Opponents have to respect that. Can you expand on what you mean by classifying her as a Brawl character?

"Brawl Character" is probably an incorrect phrase. What I mean by this is that games with Rosalina in them tend to behave in a somewhat "Brawl" fashion for the non Rosalina player. Mostly because if you try to hit her in an offensive manner, 90% of the time you're gonna get punished by the Luma if you try to do anything more than one hit, tops. Makes for a very non-offensive game for both players. Hence the Brawl-ness. Lots of sitting around trying to trick your opponent to make mistakes. Timeouts more than just possible. She's really floaty too which adds to the feel.

And I don't really think a lot of it is matchup knowledge. There's not a whole lot to understand about it. The problem is that you can't really work around it for a lot of characters(mostly people who have no ranged weapons or very laggy/weak ranged weapons). Rosalina's frame advantage in most situations is extremely one-sided except vs characters with absurdly good frame data like Diddy Kong.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

"Brawl Character" is probably an incorrect phrase. What I mean by this is that games with Rosalina in them tend to behave in a somewhat "Brawl" fashion for the non Rosalina player. Mostly because if you try to hit her in an offensive manner, 90% of the time you're gonna get punished by the Luma if you try to do anything more than one hit, tops. Makes for a very non-offensive game for both players. Hence the Brawl-ness. Lots of sitting around trying to trick your opponent to make mistakes. Timeouts more than just possible. She's really floaty too which adds to the feel.

And I don't really think a lot of it is matchup knowledge. There's not a whole lot to understand about it. The problem is that you can't really work around it for a lot of characters(mostly people who have no ranged weapons or very laggy/weak ranged weapons). Rosalina's frame advantage in most situations is extremely one-sided except vs characters with absurdly good frame data like Diddy Kong.

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out untrue, and pretty much sounds like the opinion of someone who is mainly venting their frustrations about a certain character matchup they dislike.
I've heard people call Captain Falcon, Robin, Ness, Lucario, Bowser Jr., Villager, and even Ganondorf- Cheap characters. As if picking them guarantees a win or something. -and honestly I'm really tired of seeing all the b**ching about how Rosalina is a "Pick me to win the match" character. She isn't. And unless you main/have mained her and played against some other people who know her weaknesses and how to fight against her properly, you wouldn't really understand that. I have friends who have picked Rosalina against me and lost to characters that aren't even my secondaries.

There are actually quite a few characters in this game that give Rosalina trouble, some that even counter her. If she was so easy to win with, why aren't all the tournaments being dominated by Rosalinas? It's because once you know the ways around her tricks, a person who's just playing Rosalina because she's a "Easy win" character is easily defeatable compared to someone who is dedicated to her and puts in the time and effort into understanding and bringing out her higher potential.

Luma is nowhere near the invincible, anti-combo meat shield you're making it out to be. Yes Luma is amazing and part of the reason Rosalina is even as good of a character as she is, but it takes a very vigilant, smart Rosalina player to be able to keep Luma in play at higher levels against practiced opponents. There are a lot of Anti-Luma attacks than can easily take it out if the Rosalina isn't careful (Mario's B-Throw, Several characters Jab attacks) and once the Luma is gone, Rosalina's options become very limited.
As a Rosalina main I'm actually finding right now that one of my most troubling matchups is against Link. He actually has a surprising amount of options for keeping Luma at bay, and a lot of his attacks can take it out really effectively. That Jab attack of his is just murder.

 

[Gawain]

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out untrue, and pretty much sounds like the opinion of someone who is mainly venting their frustrations about a certain character matchup they dislike.
I've heard people call Captain Falcon, Robin, Ness, Lucario, Bowser Jr., Villager, and even Ganondorf- Cheap characters. As if picking them guarantees a win or something. -and honestly I'm really tired of seeing all the b**ching about how Rosalina is a "Pick me to win the match" character. She isn't. And unless you main/have mained her and played against some other people who know her weaknesses and how to fight against her properly, you wouldn't really understand that. I have friends who have picked Rosalina against me and lost to characters that aren't even my secondaries.

There are actually quite a few characters in this game that give Rosalina trouble, some that even counter her. If she was so easy to win with, why aren't all the tournaments being dominated by Rosalinas? It's because once you know the ways around her tricks, a person who's just playing Rosalina because she's a "Easy win" character is easily defeatable compared to someone who is dedicated to her and puts in the time and effort into understanding and bringing out her higher potential.

Luma is nowhere near the invincible, anti-combo meat shield you're making it out to be. Yes Luma is amazing and part of the reason Rosalina is even as good of a character as she is, but it takes a very vigilant, smart Rosalina player to be able to keep Luma in play at higher levels against practiced opponents. There are a lot of Anti-Luma attacks than can easily take it out if the Rosalina isn't careful (Mario's B-Throw, Several characters Jab attacks) and once the Luma is gone, Rosalina's options become very limited.
As a Rosalina main I'm actually finding right now that one of my most troubling matchups is against Link. He actually has a surprising amount of options for keeping Luma at bay, and a lot of his attacks can take it out really effectively. That Jab attack of his is just murder.

Nice little jab at putting words in my mouth. I'm not even going to respond to that bait.

And you're seriously fooling yourself if you ont think Luma is the best anti combo tool in the game and that Rosalina slows the game down. On the first point the only thing that even comes close to being as good is Yoshis or Luigis nairs which come out incredibly fast. The second point is easily proven by the man, many tournaments which have featured her. Just look at any of Dabuz's Apex matches. It's pretty much nothing but baiting out single punishes until luma is gone or separated too far. Or the opponent lost. Don't get defensive when I'm just telling you the truth.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

Nice little jab at putting words in my mouth. I'm not even going to respond to that bait.

And you're seriously fooling yourself if you ont think Luma is the best anti combo tool in the game and that Rosalina slows the game down. On the first point the only thing that even comes close to being as good is Yoshis or Luigis nairs which come out incredibly fast. The second point is easily proven by the man, many tournaments which have featured her. Just look at any of Dabuz's Apex matches. It's pretty much nothing but baiting out single punishes until luma is gone or separated too far. Or the opponent lost. Don't get defensive when I'm just telling you the truth.

Truth? You haven't really done anything here except throw around misinformation about a character without anything to really back it up other than your word on that's how it is. I'd love to see some proof that 90% of all follow ups attempted on her fail because of Luma.

Rosalina slows the game down? No. Campy and defensive matches with her against projectile heavy Zoners? Yes.
In fact, Campy and defensive matches with ANY projectile heavy characters slow the game down.

I've watched several of Dabuz's matches, not just at Apex- and there has been times where he barely clutched a win (the match against 6WX's Sonic comes to mind) -and even still... Did he Win Apex 2015 with Rosalina? Nope. He didn't even use her in his final match, he felt more confident with using a different character. I think that speaks volumes right there. Not to mention Dabuz is just ONE Rosalina player, and even though his playstyle of her is very defensive, does that mean that is the only way she can be played? Hell no. That's one of the best things about Rosalina is literally just how many options she has for unique playstyle. I've seen aggressive, rushdown Rosalinas that were fantastic.

Until you've mained her yourself and had to deal with making up for her Shortcomings (Omg yes, they actually exist! :O), I don't think your opinions on her "Brawlness" or "Easy to Win" factor can really be taken as fact. Sorry. Watching tournaments when the meta is still less than 4 months old and shouting "OMG BROKEN CHARACTER" doesn't really mean anything.

Remember when everyone thought Ike was overpowered in Brawl? Lol...Yeah.

 

[Zonderion]

Nice little jab at putting words in my mouth. I'm not even going to respond to that bait.

And you're seriously fooling yourself if you ont think Luma is the best anti combo tool in the game and that Rosalina slows the game down. On the first point the only thing that even comes close to being as good is Yoshis or Luigis nairs which come out incredibly fast. The second point is easily proven by the man, many tournaments which have featured her. Just look at any of Dabuz's Apex matches. It's pretty much nothing but baiting out single punishes until luma is gone or separated too far. Or the opponent lost. Don't get defensive when I'm just telling you the truth

Rosalina is a control character. She is not a speed character, or a strength character. I'm sick and tired of the microwave mentality.
"If the match doesn't progress fast enough then the characters/players are a detriment to the community. "

That's what I feel like people say, not to put words in your mouth though. There is much appreciation to utilizing her tools to control the match how she sees fit.

I've always loved strategy games because of the control that is involved, hence why I'm drawn to Rosalina.

 

[Enrel]

Here's the breakdown of fighting Against Rosalina. There are BAD match ups that are both in her favor and not in her favor. The ones that are generally in her favor are characters that are slower in nature and tend to not have that good poke in general. She is a character that has a wall to get through in the form of Luma. If you cannot successfully take that out with one of said characters from before they'll have issues. Ganon is a pretty good example of this. His options on approach tend to be limited in some ways for her.

It doesn't make her impossible to beat nor is she top tier because she has a good match up against some lower tier characters. If that's the case man think of all the p*ssing and moaning people should do for someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Palutena.

Matchups not in favor of Rosalina tend to be characters with good landing lag or move recovery in general. They have great knockback even on simple moves, and have a way to negate a lot of Rosalina's own moves. Link is a great example of this. Everything except his Uair and Dair have great landing lag and hit stun. It allows then for Link to follow up with a 3 hit combo from Jab. If they're close enough to the edge luma is then gone. If not you still can apply pressure in the air or with some B moves. It's all thanks to how much hit stun and knock back he has on these moves that make him have more options against Rosalina.

Yes Rosalina does remove a lot of options from someone like Megaman, Dank Hunt, and Puc-Man. But there is ALWAYS a way around that sort of thing too. Megaman don't use metal blade unless you know she's not going to G Pull that. (I don't play the other two so forgive me) Approach with Fair and Nair to produce a zoning wall that she cannot fight against.

There are options! It just might not be the character you want as the option against her. Much like EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME there are hard counters to some characters. We call those unfavorable match ups and believe it or not Rosalina has a lot of unfavorable match ups.

 

[Toren "Kyro" Park]

Here's the breakdown of fighting Against Rosalina. There are BAD match ups that are both in her favor and not in her favor. The ones that are generally in her favor are characters that are slower in nature and tend to not have that good poke in general. She is a character that has a wall to get through in the form of Luma. If you cannot successfully take that out with one of said characters from before they'll have issues. Ganon is a pretty good example of this. His options on approach tend to be limited in some ways for her.

It doesn't make her impossible to beat nor is she top tier because she has a good match up against some lower tier characters. If that's the case man think of all the p*ssing and moaning people should do for someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Palutena.

Matchups not in favor of Rosalina tend to be characters with good landing lag or move recovery in general. They have great knockback even on simple moves, and have a way to negate a lot of Rosalina's own moves. Link is a great example of this. Everything except his Uair and Dair have great landing lag and hit stun. It allows then for Link to follow up with a 3 hit combo from Jab. If they're close enough to the edge luma is then gone. If not you still can apply pressure in the air or with some B moves. It's all thanks to how much hit stun and knock back he has on these moves that make him have more options against Rosalina.

Yes Rosalina does remove a lot of options from someone like Megaman, Dank Hunt, and Puc-Man. But there is ALWAYS a way around that sort of thing too. Megaman don't use metal blade unless you know she's not going to G Pull that. (I don't play the other two so forgive me) Approach with Fair and Nair to produce a zoning wall that she cannot fight against.

There are options! It just might not be the character you want as the option against her. Much like EVERY OTHER COMPETITIVE GAME there are hard counters to some characters. We call those unfavorable match ups and believe it or not Rosalina has a lot of unfavorable match ups.

Enrel, you have a great point. I main as Megaman, and i have no issues taking out Rosie. I just keep my distance and use my crash bomber and charge shots to take out that piece of [feces] Luma. After that, I have no issues taking out my frustration on poor Rosie.

 

[Gawain]

Rosalina is a control character. She is not a speed character, or a strength character. I'm sick and tired of the microwave mentality.
"If the match doesn't progress fast enough then the characters/players are a detriment to the community. "

That's what I feel like people say, not to put words in your mouth though. There is much appreciation to utilizing her tools to control the match how she sees fit.

I've always loved strategy games because of the control that is involved, hence why I'm drawn to Rosalina.

People say that because in order for something to be a spectator sport it has to progress at a reasonable time frame. You can't have every 2 stock round taking 4-5 minutes for a fighting game. Even in melee it's not looked at kindly. It cuts into time intended for other events and very few people want to watch something so non volatile. And despite what some people believe, viewability does matter quite a lot for something to stay relevant.

The other guy I'm not even going to bother responding too because they've mostly ignored what I've said and are trying to incite angry posts, and it's not going to happen.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

People say that because in order for something to be a spectator sport it has to progress at a reasonable time frame. You can't have every 2 stock round taking 4-5 minutes for a fighting game. Even in melee it's not looked at kindly. It cuts into time intended for other events and very few people want to watch something so non volatile. And despite what some people believe, viewability does matter quite a lot for something to stay relevant.

The other guy I'm not even going to bother responding too because they've mostly ignored what I've said and are trying to incite angry posts, and it's not going to happen.

Actually, I'm a girl- and as far as I see it, you're the one who's chosen to completely ignore everything I've countered to your "Facts" about a character you don't even main. What do you expect when you come to the Rosalina board and try to argue things about the character when there is a multitude of evidence here proving otherwise?
Either way, it doesn't matter. People can think what they want about the character but the fact remains that she's here to stay in Smash 4, and people are just going to have to learn to get over it and adapt to her matchup. Just Like we ALL have to do with that darn Diddy Kong.

 

[Gawain]

Actually, I'm a girl- and as far as I see it, you're the one who's chosen to completely ignore everything I've countered to your "Facts" about a character you don't even main. What do you expect when you come to the Rosalina board and try to argue things about the character when there is a multitude of evidence here proving otherwise?
Either way, it doesn't matter. People can think what they want about the character but the fact remains that she's here to stay in Smash 4, and people are just going to have to learn to get over it and adapt to her matchup. Just Like we ALL have to do with that darn Diddy Kong.

As if it mattered? Facts still stand. Video evidence is video evidence. You can argue about the age of the "metagame",which I've always thought was ridiculous in the first place, but what matters is here, now.

And personally i don't think Diddy is all that bad. He's at least pushing an offensive almost all the time and he's fun to combo.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

As if it mattered? Facts still stand. Video evidence is video evidence. You can argue about the age of the "metagame",which I've always thought was ridiculous in the first place, but what matters is here, now.

And personally i don't think Diddy is all that bad. He's at least pushing an offensive almost all the time and he's fun to combo.

Well that's the problem here. You haven't provided any Facts. All I've seen from your posts is conjecture, based on your personal experiences with the MU maybe, or videos you have watched- I don't know. The fact of the matter here is that coming into a thread and saying "this character is impossible to combo because reasons" without giving any actual proof or evidence of this claim, is not stating a fact. Period. In any situation.
You say you've seen videos of Rosalina doing nothing but being campy and defensive so therefore that is the basis of her character and anything else is what, a lie? So can I say that Captain Falcon is a campy character that does nothing but play keep away and fish for grabs because I've played against ones on For Glory that do that? Is that a fact now just because I said so?

There are tons of videos right HERE on this board showing plenty of different styles of Rosalina, including aggressive play. You say she can't be comboed because of Luma, but that's not true either because I main her, and guess what- I've been comboed.
When Luma is attached to her (not in the sparkling state from Luma Shot) he actually goes helpless and flails around for a few moments while she's in Hitstun. All the better if you can hit with an attack that snags the two of them at the same time, because Luma is helpless after getting hit until it touches the ground.

There's a lot more that goes into figuring out the complete workings of a character than just a few videos of One Person playing them in a tournament against a limited number of players of varying skill levels.
I still remember when people thought Robin was Top Tier because Nairo was winning all the 3DS tournaments. Now he's considered like B-tier or in some peoples opinions worse than that.
The real fact here is it's going to take a lot more time to see where ANY of the characters really stand in terms of their place on a tier list, or their overall dominance of the meta, etc, whatever.
If you don't agree with me, that's fine- but nothing you've said about Rosalina yet has been an absolute fact aside from the notion that she does force certain characters to have to adapt to a strategy outside of their normal play. -and personally I think that's a good thing. It freshens up Characters that would otherwise start to have stale matchups IMO.

 

[Enrel]

As if it mattered? Facts still stand. Video evidence is video evidence.

One person is not what a consensus makes. This is bad science. Shame on you for saying it is "facts" at most it's facts that a Defensive Rosalina is really difficult to come in on. Sure I'll give you that, but it doesn't mean anything outside of that she has a strong defensive option.

Like others have said if she was OP we would be seeing her not only winning tourneys but more people just playing her in general. The fun aspect of broken/op characters is that EVERYONE plays them because they want to be good with little to no effort. It doesn't matter the game, as long as it has a player versus player aspect to it people (Generally the vast majority) will be going for what is the strongest.

Unconventional doesn't mean anything other than unconventional. We've seen this more in Smash bros then you give the series credit for. It started with Ice Climbers, then Snake, and now Rosalina. There's always at least one new character that has a different playstyle than the others. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Either way it's always viewed as strong because they're an outlier of the standard. The reason is that people will have to learn a whole new match up to fight this person. Nothing wrong with that nor should there be. The only time it ever becomes a problem is if there's no way to actually win against them. That is not a case here in discussing Rosalina.

Is Rosalina a strong character? Yes of-course she is. Under the right conditions she can control a match pretty effectively. Over powered? Not even in the slightest.

 

[Gawain]

One person is not what a consensus makes. This is bad science. Shame on you for saying it is "facts" at most it's facts that a Defensive Rosalina is really difficult to come in on. Sure I'll give you that, but it doesn't mean anything outside of that she has a strong defensive option.

Like others have said if she was OP we would be seeing her not only winning tourneys but more people just playing her in general. The fun aspect of broken/op characters is that EVERYONE plays them because they want to be good with little to no effort. It doesn't matter the game, as long as it has a player versus player aspect to it people (Generally the vast majority) will be going for what is the strongest.

Unconventional doesn't mean anything other than unconventional. We've seen this more in Smash bros then you give the series credit for. It started with Ice Climbers, then Snake, and now Rosalina. There's always at least one new character that has a different playstyle than the others. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Either way it's always viewed as strong because they're an outlier of the standard. The reason is that people will have to learn a whole new match up to fight this person. Nothing wrong with that nor should there be. The only time it ever becomes a problem is if there's no way to actually win against them. That is not a case here in discussing Rosalina.

Is Rosalina a strong character? Yes of-course she is. Under the right conditions she can control a match pretty effectively. Over powered? Not even in the slightest.

When did I ever say she was overpowered? I'm simply disputing the people who seriously don't think she's in the top 2 or 3 at the least. All that people have been doing is taking my comment and then stretching it to the absolute limit of what can be considered as being inferred from it. Nothing I have said is false. She's got the strongest combo breaking mechanic in the game. You can't seriously believe that anyone else is as good at getting out of a throw or other combo situation. No one even comes close.

Well that's the problem here. You haven't provided any Facts. All I've seen from your posts is conjecture, based on your personal experiences with the MU maybe, or videos you have watched- I don't know. The fact of the matter here is that coming into a thread and saying "this character is impossible to combo because reasons" without giving any actual proof or evidence of this claim, is not stating a fact. Period. In any situation.
You say you've seen videos of Rosalina doing nothing but being campy and defensive so therefore that is the basis of her character and anything else is what, a lie? So can I say that Captain Falcon is a campy character that does nothing but play keep away and fish for grabs because I've played against ones on For Glory that do that? Is that a fact now just because I said so?

There are tons of videos right HERE on this board showing plenty of different styles of Rosalina, including aggressive play. You say she can't be comboed because of Luma, but that's not true either because I main her, and guess what- I've been comboed.
When Luma is attached to her (not in the sparkling state from Luma Shot) he actually goes helpless and flails around for a few moments while she's in Hitstun. All the better if you can hit with an attack that snags the two of them at the same time, because Luma is helpless after getting hit until it touches the ground.

There's a lot more that goes into figuring out the complete workings of a character than just a few videos of One Person playing them in a tournament against a limited number of players of varying skill levels.
I still remember when people thought Robin was Top Tier because Nairo was winning all the 3DS tournaments. Now he's considered like B-tier or in some peoples opinions worse than that.
The real fact here is it's going to take a lot more time to see where ANY of the characters really stand in terms of their place on a tier list, or their overall dominance of the meta, etc, whatever.
If you don't agree with me, that's fine- but nothing you've said about Rosalina yet has been an absolute fact aside from the notion that she does force certain characters to have to adapt to a strategy outside of their normal play. -and personally I think that's a good thing. It freshens up Characters that would otherwise start to have stale matchups IMO.

And you're still taking what I've said and stretching it out. Read what I already said in this post. And it's not just one person. Any top level R&L plays like that. Because it's an extremely effective strategy given the games physics and other popular characters etc. And you could say that about Falcon (or any character) but it wouldn't be true because we've already seen Falcon's in top play already doing different things than that(although grabbing really is about half of Falcon's game in most matchups).

 

[Zonderion]

People say that because in order for something to be a spectator sport it has to progress at a reasonable time frame. You can't have every 2 stock round taking 4-5 minutes for a fighting game. Even in melee it's not looked at kindly. It cuts into time intended for other events and very few people want to watch something so non volatile. And despite what some people believe, viewability does matter quite a lot for something to stay relevant.

The other guy I'm not even going to bother responding too because they've mostly ignored what I've said and are trying to incite angry posts, and it's not going to happen.

I'm sorry, is 4-5 minutes not a reasonable time frame? Hmm... lets look at football. The average per game is about 3 hours. Yet it is still popular. The mindset the smash / video game community has gotten into is that they get bored because of the microwave mentality. People who watch football go into watching it expecting it to take 3 hours.

So what's the reasonable solution? Obviously changing the mindset of smashers will never happen. What if we drop the max time from 5 minutes to 2 minutes? Would that solve things? Or would people start complaining that 2 minutes is taking too long once everyone is expecting 1 minute matches?

People either need to put up, or shut up. If you don't like playing against a Rosalina because she "can" make the matches go long, then play a hard counter and end things quickly.

 

[Gawain]

I'm sorry, is 4-5 minutes not a reasonable time frame? Hmm... lets look at football. The average per game is about 3 hours. Yet it is still popular. The mindset the smash / video game community has gotten into is that they get bored because of the microwave mentality. People who watch football go into watching it expecting it to take 3 hours.

So what's the reasonable solution? Obviously changing the mindset of smashers will never happen. What if we drop the max time from 5 minutes to 2 minutes? Would that solve things? Or would people start complaining that 2 minutes is taking too long once everyone is expecting 1 minute matches?

People either need to put up, or shut up. If you don't like playing against a Rosalina because she "can" make the matches go long, then play a hard counter and end things quickly.

What a ridiculous analogy. Football and fighting games have almost nothing in common. I'm not even going to bother describing the huge amounts of things that are different. People go to fighting game tournaments expecting the top bracket to take about a few hours. THAT is more comparable to a football game. Not a single match. That you think that those two things are remotely comparable is mind boggling. Melee already takes WAY more time than any other fighting game. The time issue is a pretty big reason why Brawl hasn't been on stage at events like Evo for a long time. It takes way too long. 90 Seconds per round is the expectation for traditional fighting games. These days, people have accepted Smash's slightly longer on average games, but expecting people to sit around for 5+ minutes per round at a tournament is ridiculous and is going to get Smash 4 off the stages. Especially when what they're watching is a lot of standing around.

And just telling people to play a hard counter isn't much of a solution. Especially when her "hard" counters, if you can even consider anyone as being a hard counter for her at this point, are characters like Diddy who STILL have to wait around in the match if they don't want to be destroyed. Beating Rosalina is a lot about patience and waiting for something to punish. Doesn't matter who it is. Some characters are just able to capitalize safely and get more out of it per punish than others. Some people say that Armada's Young Link counters Hbox's jigglypuff. But those games take like 6 minutes on average. Being a counter doesn't mean the game goes fast, dude.

 

[Enrel]

When did I ever say she was overpowered? I'm simply disputing the people who seriously don't think she's in the top 2 or 3 at the least. All that people have been doing is taking my comment and then stretching it to the absolute limit of what can be considered as being inferred from it. Nothing I have said is false. She's got the strongest combo breaking mechanic in the game. You can't seriously believe that anyone else is as good at getting out of a throw or other combo situation. No one even comes close.


And you're still taking what I've said and stretching it out. Read what I already said in this post. And it's not just one person. Any top level R&L plays like that. Because it's an extremely effective strategy given the games physics and other popular characters etc. And you could say that about Falcon (or any character) but it wouldn't be true because we've already seen Falcon's in top play already doing different things than that(although grabbing really is about half of Falcon's game in most matchups).

Really the only stretching being made here sir is you. Yes congratulations you didn't strictly use the word overpowered. I'm sorry I'm probably going to turn into a real d*ck now cause you're really not listening to what anyone is saying and instead going off of just what you see in your mind's eye. You keep saying the facts the facts, but it's nothing more than conjecture if you cannot put your money where your mouth is and produce more videos of "pros playing exactly like Dabuz."

How does she have a strong combo breaking mechanic when it takes a good 3-4 seconds after she's been hit for Luma to do anything from a command? If you're playing Falcon then hitting between 3-4 seconds and comboing up should be easy as cake. If Ganon can do it Falcon can do it. Yes if she's grabbed and isn't immediately pummeled luma can and will break rosa from the grab. Now if you want luma do be inactive during a grab that's another argument altogether and am more than willing to have that. So far everything you've said hasn't been true either. It's hard to prove a negative here when you're not showing examples of her "combo breaking" abilities. Again put your money where your mouth is.

I have a lot of complaints about Rosalina but never has it been this fabled idea that you cannot combo her cause that's just purely incorrect. Not sure though what you mean by getting out of a "combo situation" either. Like you mean dodging? Cause everyone can do that pretty well. All depends on the hitstun of the move as well as the knockback.

Right you've seen multiple falcons in top play and that cannot be denied. Who else is a top level Rosalina player though? You've only said Dabuz... We ALL know how he plays too. He's very much turtle style and really safe. He only does something if he's 100% sure it'll work. He's no risk and little reward because of it. All his damage is extremely safe which is not bad, he racks it up eventually and gets a kill that way. It's his right to play the way he wants to though. Even if some people might find it boring. My Link is not the same as everyone else's link, nor is my Ganon, or Palutena. It's all preferences with every character and that includes Rosalina.

 

[JmacAttack]

Exactly my point, If we DONT see her alot or at all even, then why are we putting her on this pedestal for being the best?

EventHub =/= we.

EventHub's tier list is pretty much universally considered garbage by anyone outside of EventHubs.

I acknowledge that Rosa's definitely high tier, she was considered #1 in the early days and only fell out of that spot due to Diddy Kong. But #1? Not while Diddy's easiest options wreck face in so many matchups, including Rosa's.

 

[Gawain]

Really the only stretching being made here sir is you. Yes congratulations you didn't strictly use the word overpowered. I'm sorry I'm probably going to turn into a real d*ck now cause you're really not listening to what anyone is saying and instead going off of just what you see in your mind's eye. You keep saying the facts the facts, but it's nothing more than conjecture if you cannot put your money where your mouth is and produce more videos of "pros playing exactly like Dabuz."

How does she have a strong combo breaking mechanic when it takes a good 3-4 seconds after she's been hit for Luma to do anything from a command? If you're playing Falcon then hitting between 3-4 seconds and comboing up should be easy as cake. If Ganon can do it Falcon can do it. Yes if she's grabbed and isn't immediately pummeled luma can and will break rosa from the grab. Now if you want luma do be inactive during a grab that's another argument altogether and am more than willing to have that. So far everything you've said hasn't been true either. It's hard to prove a negative here when you're not showing examples of her "combo breaking" abilities. Again put your money where your mouth is.

I have a lot of complaints about Rosalina but never has it been this fabled idea that you cannot combo her cause that's just purely incorrect. Not sure though what you mean by getting out of a "combo situation" either. Like you mean dodging? Cause everyone can do that pretty well. All depends on the hitstun of the move as well as the knockback.

Right you've seen multiple falcons in top play and that cannot be denied. Who else is a top level Rosalina player though? You've only said Dabuz... We ALL know how he plays too. He's very much turtle style and really safe. He only does something if he's 100% sure it'll work. He's no risk and little reward because of it. All his damage is extremely safe which is not bad, he racks it up eventually and gets a kill that way. It's his right to play the way he wants to though. Even if some people might find it boring. My Link is not the same as everyone else's link, nor is my Ganon, or Palutena. It's all preferences with every character and that includes Rosalina.

Wow. I'm not even going to bother giving this a real response when you're going to continue fabricating things for me. And 3-4 seconds before she can act after getting hit? Haha, there isn't even a move in the game with that much hitstun. And again, I never even said she couldn't be combo'd. All I said was that she has the best utility for getting out of a combo. Which is true. If you think a massive, fast, disjointed hitbox that can still be out at the same moment as you are getting hit doesn't count as defense vs pressue/comboing, then I don't even know what to tell you man. All of the good Rosa players abuse this ability like mad.

And I think it's funny that you expect me to go fetch you videos as proof for whatever reason. What, you can't just go to VGBootCamp or some other Youtube Channel and look at the myriad of videos that already show what I'm talking about? I'm not wasting my time with you on that. We both know no amount of videos will change your mind.

 

[Enrel]

Wow. I'm not even going to bother giving this a real response when you're going to continue fabricating things for me. And 3-4 seconds before she can act after getting hit? Haha, there isn't even a move in the game with that much hitstun. And again, I never even said she couldn't be combo'd. All I said was that she has the best utility for getting out of a combo. Which is true. If you think a massive, fast, disjointed hitbox that can still be out at the same moment as you are getting hit doesn't count as defense vs pressue/comboing, then I don't even know what to tell you man. All of the good Rosa players abuse this ability like mad.

And I think it's funny that you expect me to go fetch you videos as proof for whatever reason. What, you can't just go to VGBootCamp or some other Youtube Channel and look at the myriad of videos that already show what I'm talking about? I'm not wasting my time with you on that. We both know no amount of videos will change your mind.

No there is no move that makes rosalina unable to move for 3-4 seconds but it's a mechanic for Luma to not be able to react to any of Rosa's inputs when she gets hit. Now all be it I don't know the exact frame data it take for Luma to react but I do know it leaves more than enough time to do follow ups. And at most that 3-4 seconds of Luma inactivity is a bit hyperbole. Congratulations on literacy. You've SAID SHE CAN'T BE COMBO'D stop backtracking. Jesus Christ are you really going to go off in this direction in an argument? "anti combo tool" - "90% of the time you're gonna get punished by the Luma if you try to do anything more than one hit, tops." One hit sure does sound like can't be combo'd to me. For one you've never even made AN ACTUAL F'in point until right now. I mean even the most green debaters know to start off with more than just blind accusations. It took you how many posts to finally use a real example? I'm sorry now I'm just going to complain about your argument structure here because it's completely sloppy and hasn't had anything of substance until RIGHT NOW! This is not how you do things. You don't make sweeping blind accusations and hope people even know what you're even talking about because while we can make great reads. We're not physics! Yes she does have a big disjointed hixbox with Luma. Without it not so big but still disjointed. So you're saying then that all rosa's just spam forward smash then? It seems like the game winning strats?

You're the one that came into the thread spouting off crap! Of-course you're the one with the burden of proof here. This isn't the freaking inquisition era where the accuser doesn't need proof but the defendant does. Especially when the proof you're accusing Rosalina about clearly doesn't exists.

Actually yes! Showing proof does change people's minds. Either that or a very well crafted argument. Which neither you provided. God this isn't amature hour here when it comes to debating, arguments, or even just using common sense now is it? Outside of showing the initiative these videos would provide, it also garners you with respect that you took the time and effort to construct a well thought out topic for debate. Already really strong factors into getting people to see your side; wouldn't you agree? BUT AGAIN NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED NOW DID IT?

 

[Gawain]

No there is no move that makes rosalina unable to move for 3-4 seconds but it's a mechanic for Luma to not be able to react to any of Rosa's inputs when she gets hit. Now all be it I don't know the exact frame data it take for Luma to react but I do know it leaves more than enough time to do follow ups. And at most that 3-4 seconds of Luma inactivity is a bit hyperbole. Congratulations on literacy. You've SAID SHE CAN'T BE COMBO'D stop backtracking. Jesus Christ are you really going to go off in this direction in an argument? "anti combo tool" - "90% of the time you're gonna get punished by the Luma if you try to do anything more than one hit, tops." One hit sure does sound like can't be combo'd to me. For one you've never even made AN ACTUAL F'in point until right now. I mean even the most green debaters know to start off with more than just blind accusations. It took you how many posts to finally use a real example? I'm sorry now I'm just going to complain about your argument structure here because it's completely sloppy and hasn't had anything of substance until RIGHT NOW! This is not how you do things. You don't make sweeping blind accusations and hope people even know what you're even talking about because while we can make great reads. We're not physics! Yes she does have a big disjointed hixbox with Luma. Without it not so big but still disjointed. So you're saying then that all rosa's just spam forward smash then? It seems like the game winning strats?

You're the one that came into the thread spouting off crap! Of-course you're the one with the burden of proof here. This isn't the freaking inquisition era where the accuser doesn't need proof but the defendant does. Especially when the proof you're accusing Rosalina about clearly doesn't exists.

Actually yes! Showing proof does change people's minds. Either that or a very well crafted argument. Which neither you provided. Instead you've provided more of an assuming aside into things a 10 year old does to try to get his way. God this isn't amature hour here when it comes to debating, arguments, or even just using common sense now is it? Outside of showing the initiative these videos would provide, it also garners you with respect that you took the time and effort to construct a well thought out topic for debate. Already really strong factors into getting people to see your side; wouldn't you agree? BUT AGAIN NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED NOW DID IT?

Wow buddy. Nice ad hominem and inane non-argument. Fallacies everywhere. You've shown your true colors and I'm not even going to bother with you anymore.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

Haha, I wouldn't bother arguing with him anymore Enrel. Talk about a Brick wall.

It's pretty obvious that he clearly knows all the facts about Rosalina, despite the fact that he doesn't even main her, and every time someone challenges one of his researched facts with a legitimate counter point- of course it's a fallacy or inane, and not worth his time to respond to.

I guess we'd better change all the matchup analysis, frame data and everything we have written down in all our guides at this point, cause yep. This guy knows it all. It's a sad day my fellow Rosalina mains- everything we've known up to this point has been completely wrong.

Have you been playing a Rosalina that's aggressive or varies in play style? Shame on you guys. Didn't you know she can only play Slow, Defensive campy matchups where you spam Jab over and over? You guys must be hacking.
And stop getting hit by combo strings! Didn't you know that Luma prevents 90% of all follow ups? Bad Rosalina players. Bad.

 

[Enrel]

While I completely agree with you Aurora 110%, I will do one thing since apparently "Rosalina can control luma at all times" part of the argument to rest.

This was from the patch 1.04 thread

LUMA : Cannot be controlled while (Rosalina is) being thrown or taking damage

Man, it's like some people not only have never played Rosalina but have never even played against one either. Well to be fair the hours everyone has spent playing, everyone has just been doing it wrong and forgetting to unlock the magical powers that Rosalina has. Maybe it's just Miyamoto hasn't authorized that for any more players than Dabuz?

 

[Zonderion]

What a ridiculous analogy. Football and fighting games have almost nothing in common. I'm not even going to bother describing the huge amounts of things that are different. People go to fighting game tournaments expecting the top bracket to take about a few hours. THAT is more comparable to a football game. Not a single match. That you think that those two things are remotely comparable is mind boggling. Melee already takes WAY more time than any other fighting game. The time issue is a pretty big reason why Brawl hasn't been on stage at events like Evo for a long time. It takes way too long. 90 Seconds per round is the expectation for traditional fighting games. These days, people have accepted Smash's slightly longer on average games, but expecting people to sit around for 5+ minutes per round at a tournament is ridiculous and is going to get Smash 4 off the stages. Especially when what they're watching is a lot of standing around.

And just telling people to play a hard counter isn't much of a solution. Especially when her "hard" counters, if you can even consider anyone as being a hard counter for her at this point, are characters like Diddy who STILL have to wait around in the match if they don't want to be destroyed. Beating Rosalina is a lot about patience and waiting for something to punish. Doesn't matter who it is. Some characters are just able to capitalize safely and get more out of it per punish than others. Some people say that Armada's Young Link counters Hbox's jigglypuff. But those games take like 6 minutes on average. Being a counter doesn't mean the game goes fast, dude.

I could go into all the reasons they are the same, but I won't. I wasn't comparing the games, but I was comparing the spectators, specifically the mind sets. Just about anything can be compared and contrasted, and to think you don't understand that simple concept is "mind boggling". They are both sports, they both have offensive and defensive maneuvers and they both try to score points. I could keep going, but those are some simple comparisons. And yes, you can contrast the two as well.

Why does Melee take WAY more time? Why is Brawl not on stage events? You make these assertions, but provide not a single solution. Heck, you even evade possible solutions that other people suggest. You are only arguing against one playstyle that Rosalina has. But her playstyle is not the root of the problem. In order to actually solve problems, you have to understand why they happen.

As far as I understand it the problem is this: The Smash community does not like matches that take a long time.
But is that really the underlying problem? I would say its not. I would say the problem is the smash community doesn't like waiting.

To take your point about what they are watching is a lot of standing around, I completely agree! 100%. But that is not Rosalina's fault. That is not any specific character's fault. It is the TO's fault. They are the ones that become unorganized and fail to minimize down time between matches. They allow coaching between matches, should there be a time limit on that? I think so. I would say 30 seconds. If you can't get the advice you need in 30 seconds, then get off the stage. If you can't hold your bladder for 15 minutes, then get off the stage. The TOs are the ones that should enforce these rules.

So I ask you, what are some solutions? I suggested changing the match time from 5 minutes to 2 or 3 minutes, but you completely ignored that. If 4-5 minutes is too long for a match, then why not shorten the match length? Would it not force a much more aggressive game play from characters that CAN play defensively?

Maybe events should put a cap on the number of entrants? Having too many entrants can make the rounds take longer.

You shouldn't debate for the sake of debating, but to find a solution to a problem.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

So I ask you, what are some solutions? I suggested changing the match time from 5 minutes to 2 or 3 minutes, but you completely ignored that. If 4-5 minutes is too long for a match, then why not shorten the match length? Would it not force a much more aggressive game play from characters that CAN play defensively?

I actually kind of disagree that shortening the match length would force defensive players to get aggressive. After all, a 2-3 minute match is a lot more easy to stall the timer out for than a 5 minute match.
I actually experienced that myself when I went to a Tournament that was held by a Local Gamestop in celebration of the release of Smash 4 3DS. They held a Brawl tournament and the ruleset was 3 Stock, 3 minutes, Single Elim.
It ended up forcing most of the matches to go to sudden death for the players who were more evenly skilled due to such a quick time out, and the other scenario was if one person got a stock lead, they would just play keep away until the timer ran out. I actually made it to top 8 before that happened to me. XP Lost to a ROB who stalled the timer out by floating to the top of the screen where I couldn't reach him after getting a stock lead on me. They also allowed coaching During the matches. Bleh. Probably one of the worst tourneys I've experienced.

Anyways, Personally I actually think that Raising the time limit of matches would be more beneficial towards preventing long, stally camp matches -because not only is someone going to less likely want to have to stall the timer for say 8-9 minutes, it actually puts a bigger risk on them losing the stock anyways before the timer is up. At least, that's what I think.
I feel though like the Smash community has such a stigma around seeing higher numbers on the clock that it would probably never happen.