Why is hitstun cancelling still in this game?

[Baky]

wow lucky you finished that edit as soon as I hit reply.
But I have to say, CCing as a mindless counter is entirely fair, as it primarily counters mindless approaches.

I realized that I was arguing a subjective point. I've grown a little bias especially since Roy's crouch canceling seems to be among the best in the game- and I play ROB like you, who's approaches (including the side-b approach occasionally) can be crouch canceled with relative easy by Roy even into high percents.

...but then again, a crouch canceling Roy is the least of ROB's worries.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Roy doesn't have that great of a CC tho. He's pretty light. ROB's is definitely better.

 

[Baky]

A Roy D-tilt will knock most any character out of a crouch cancel and he can usually CC into the 60%+ I'm not sure why you would consider ROB's better?

The only thing I can think of its the predictability of Roy's crouch cancel as being its weakness but the CC + d-tilt into combo seems to be among the best in the game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Roy's isn't that good because his lightweight doesn't let him CC as high as other characters. If he is CCing you to 60% or even anywhere near that you are very bad for approaching with moves so susceptible to CCing. Roy already has a great movement game that outclasses his CC by a lot, but no projectile, so he's better off making the opponent whiff with DD baits and the opponent is better off forcing Roy to approach them, rendering his CC much more situational.
ROB on the other hand is all about forcing characters to approach him. His projectiles are tough to deal with. ROB also has no anti-airs, which gives opponents good reasons to approach with SHFFL'd aerials and the like. His response to that kind of approach is usually to take the hit and CC dsmash (which hits frame 5). His also has CC dtilt and CC usmash, which hit frames 4 and 6 respectively. All of thosee are faster than either Roy's dtilt or dsmash, except ROB's usmash which is the same speed as Roy's dsmash. Dsmash also always beats CC, and so does the usmash launcher hitbox on characters under a certain weight. Add to this that ROB is heavier so he can CC to higher percents against the same moves.

 

[Narpas_sword]

How does "crouching adds weight" make sense? Where is the extra weight supposed to come from?

in fear of saying something already said by replying to this before i finish reading the topic:

have you ever been pushed?
think about getting pushed standing up vs getting pushed crouching.


no, you're not 'heavier' but you're braced better to resist getting knocked over when youre pushed.

 

[Phaiyte]

One of the main complaints about Brawl was hitstun cancelling, which allowed you to get out of almost any combo. PMBR removed the Brawl version of this from the game, but then decided that they wanted to put it back in in a different form: crouch cancelling. The reason for this is probably "because Melee", which is apparently a legitimate reason to put anything in this game, but why not take out a bad mechanic? Or rather, why put in a bad mechanic when you don't have to? Crouch cancelling is seriously just hitstun cancelling on the ground instead of the air, but even better. With Brawl hitstun cancelling you can't follow up on a move, with crouch cancelling you actually get punished for landing a move. Why does this still exist?

Crouch cancelling is a universal defense mechanic based on the weight of the character. It gives heavies hope of actually getting hits in. You have to have something in the game that gives heavies an opportunity to get in. That's part of what balance is all about. Just stop crying and git gud lol.

There's plenty of counters to crouch cancelling in the game for you to work around. Yaknow, like grabs (rule of thumb = grabs beat all armor huehuehue), and most Dsmashes. If the opponent is crouch cancelling when they shouldn't be, they'll be sent horizontally off stage, DIing DOWN, and fast falling.

If you can't work around a universal balance mechanic, that's your own fault. Deal with it.

 

[shapular]

Crouch cancelling is a universal defense mechanic based on the weight of the character. It gives heavies hope of actually getting hits in. You have to have something in the game that gives heavies an opportunity to get in. That's part of what balance is all about. Just stop crying and git gud lol.

There's plenty of counters to crouch cancelling in the game for you to work around. Yaknow, like grabs (rule of thumb = grabs beat all armor huehuehue), and most Dsmashes. If the opponent is crouch cancelling when they shouldn't be, they'll be sent horizontally off stage, DIing DOWN, and fast falling.

If you can't work around a universal balance mechanic, that's your own fault. Deal with it.

"Har har this guy doesn't like a mechanic in the game he obviously sucks."

 

[Phaiyte]

"Har har this guy doesn't like a mechanic in the game he obviously sucks."

More like "har har what a giant complainer about a mechanic that actually makes the game healthier", but whatever makes you fall asleep at night.

 

[Bleck]

Larger characters having one option with which to damage other characters, and it being an option that doesn't work universally and generally assumes that they take some damage anyway, is not healthy for the game.

"Crouch canceling has to exist for heavy characters to be able to hit other characters" is not a reason why crouch canceling should exist; it's a reason why heavy characters shouldn't be so slow.

 

[cooler1339]

Melee CC isn't something that is necessary at all times, it can get you killed just as easily as it can save you. If you are caught CCing vs some attacks you can be KO'd at low % from basically being spiked.

I do think that it is a bit strong for some characters though, but since I main Marth I don't really mind . But sometimes I play a secondary and it feels like none of my attacks can budge them ever, which sucks. You approach when they are at 90% and to my surprise they still CC it. I feel like any air attack over 45% should at least knock down.

I am overall happy with the mechanic and it's one of the things I like Melee for. I see the ups and downs but I still think the game benefits from it.