Why is ganondorfs neutral special still terrible

[Papa+Stone]

It is slow and bad and needs to be replaced with something much more fun to use and more effective. Falcon punch is already too slow to use, so a slower version of it is completely useless in every way. His volcano kick was already chnaged to that neat stomp, so why not replace his other slow terrible attack with something better that adds something fresh to ganondorf? Ganondorf is already the m. bison of smash, and his shadow kick is pretty much bisons psycho crusher attack, so I recommend making his neutral b into a fun movement based special attacks like his down and side specials; make it the scissor kick or the toe slide thing or just create a really unique special attack. Anything is better than ganondorfs current warlock punch

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Hi all, I'm new to the forums. Been playing Melee since 2005-6. And found out about PM about a year ago, after I was massively disappointed with Brawl.

Anyway, on topic: In 2.6b with the new utilt I'm really excited to see what changes they are planing for Ganon next. Now the obvious thing to change will be his Nspecial, I've read PMBR can't give projectiles to characters, so just a long range move that can space people out would be best.
Also if they do scrap Nb, they should use that animation for his fsmash, it has a bit more range on it but mainly its unique to Ganon and will make him less of a clone. Besides that the only thing I want to see are esthetic changes like Darkness or lightning affect in EVERY single move. And not just on the hit but around his limbs it will than at least seem like he is using magic (like in LOZ). Other wise I think he is pretty much perfect, oh but maybe armor on his Ub will be good since he is soooooo easy to edge guard.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Earthquake Punch from OoT its my suggestion.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Earthquake Punch from OoT its my suggestion.

hmm, i think maybe there's an echo in here >.>

but yeah, i second this idea.

 

[Hao the Champion]

Please, let me clarify this since people keep complaining about Warlock Punch:

I don't think Warlock Punch should be replaced with a friggin' projectile. It does NOT help his playstyle at all and it's too much of a hassle to code for something insignificant. Changing into a projectile would not get used, as Ganondorf would be terrible with spacing and he already has decent approach options available to him. I also don't think it should be a "charged" punch because that kind of seems a bit ludicrous since his game is nothing like that unlike DK's. If people really want this removed, I think the best way to look at it would be a sort of Lucas-y Offensive Up Special. The triforce should definitely be implemented into the animation like him holding it or hovering above him or something, and he would get either a small increase in damage on either aerials/smash/specials, a slightly larger knockback on aerials/smashes/specials, or slightly increase his ground mobility. This move would have a duration of 10, 15 or 20 seconds and if the move would go with knockback increase or damage increase then he would completely lose it after 2 or 3 attacks, much like how Lucas' works. Other than that, I'd leave it alone. I mean, why are people trying to get mileage out of this move when it's not really necessary? It's like Puff players trying to give Sing a different move when she's already really solid and doesn't really need any of her specials bar Pound and Rest. Ganondorf focuses more on being aggressive, applying punishes, keeping pressure, and an in-your-face moveset. Heavy characters being too good is apparently frowned upon hence all the Booza whining. Ganondorf is really solid and I love and enjoy playing him. Kudos to whoever is the main developer on Ganondorf for this awesome buff.

 

[Phan7om]

Being a future Kirby main, I concern this too.

My suggestion would be to speed it up slightly, so its still slower than falcon punch, and give it that vacuum windbox he had for Volcano Kick in front of him. It could still be avoidable, but still usable.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Please, let me clarify this since people keep complaining about Warlock Punch:

I don't think Warlock Punch should be replaced with a friggin' projectile. It does NOT help his playstyle at all and it's too much of a hassle to code for something insignificant. Changing into a projectile would not get used, as Ganondorf would be terrible with spacing and he already has decent approach options available to him. I also don't think it should be a "charged" punch because that kind of seems a bit ludicrous since his game is nothing like that unlike DK's. If people really want this removed, I think the best way to look at it would be a sort of Lucas-y Offensive Up Special. The triforce should definitely be implemented into the animation like him holding it or hovering above him or something, and he would get either a small increase in damage on either aerials/smash/specials, a slightly larger knockback on aerials/smashes/specials, or slightly increase his ground mobility. This move would have a duration of 10, 15 or 20 seconds and if the move would go with knockback increase or damage increase then he would completely lose it after 2 or 3 attacks, much like how Lucas' works. Other than that, I'd leave it alone. I mean, why are people trying to get mileage out of this move when it's not really necessary? It's like Puff players trying to give Sing a different move when she's already really solid and doesn't really need any of her specials bar Pound and Rest. Ganondorf focuses more on being aggressive, applying punishes, keeping pressure, and an in-your-face moveset. Heavy characters being too good is apparently frowned upon hence all the Booza whining. Ganondorf is really solid and I love and enjoy playing him. Kudos to whoever is the main developer on Ganondorf for this awesome buff.

Hey, while i agree, gannon is really solid, the best he's been. the general consensus is that he's still bottom on the tier list because every other character is also the best they've ever been...

on a side note, i think the lucas style charge and hold mechanic would be cool, but i think i've come up with a flavorful use for it rather than just to power up his attacks or give him mobility.
Most people agree gannons biggest weakness has to do with characters that can camp him out and force him to play their game with projectiles. What if the charge gave him a sort of projectile immunity for one hit, maybe like a super armor for a single projectile hit?

I feel this would be interesting for him since in his games, he's shown the ability to deflect ranged attacks (gannon tennis match, lol), but also that in most, he's generaly only vulnerable to projectiles when he's let his guard down.

I also don't feel it would be over powered since he'd generally only get the time to charge this once between stocks, either as a reward for taking someone out, or as a way to get a slight edge after being knocked out.

anyone have any thoughts?

 

[CORY]

eeeh, i still like the idea of giving wizard's foot some projectile armor or invuln or something, though that may make it... not necessarily overcentralizing, but something like that.

it just seems to make sense to give his really strong move that moves him forward relatively quickly armor protection.

 

[Hao the Champion]

Hey, while i agree, gannon is really solid, the best he's been. the general consensus is that he's still bottom on the tier list because every other character is also the best they've ever been...

on a side note, i think the lucas style charge and hold mechanic would be cool, but i think i've come up with a flavorful use for it rather than just to power up his attacks or give him mobility.
Most people agree gannons biggest weakness has to do with characters that can camp him out and force him to play their game with projectiles. What if the charge gave him a sort of projectile immunity for one hit, maybe like a super armor for a single projectile hit?

I feel this would be interesting for him since in his games, he's shown the ability to deflect ranged attacks (gannon tennis match, lol), but also that in most, he's generaly only vulnerable to projectiles when he's let his guard down.

I also don't feel it would be over powered since he'd generally only get the time to charge this once between stocks, either as a reward for taking someone out, or as a way to get a slight edge after being knocked out.

anyone have any thoughts?

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1s2f8w/piece_of_mind_dead_mans_volley_over_warlock_punch/

 

[Yanoss1313]

http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1s2f8w/piece_of_mind_dead_mans_volley_over_warlock_punch/

not sure how that was relevant to my suggestion, i'm against giving ganon a projectile.

 

[Hao the Champion]

not sure how that was relevant to my suggestion, i'm against giving ganon a projectile.

My bad, I read it wrong. But a lot of characters have trouble with camping. All characters have advantages and disadvantages so I believe they won't change it up just because Ganon has a hard time when other characters also have a hard time against camping.

 

[guedes the brawler]

not that i support this idea without a massive overhaul of how ganondorf plays but i'm bored, so i have been thinking about how a projectile could help him... what about this: A slower projectile (it's speed being a middle term between a PM!Lucario's fully charged Aura Sphere and PM!Wolf's Blaster) that is able to "cancel" other projectiles to let him approach?

think of it like this, Falco is spamming blasters in your way. You throw the projectile, it goes through the blasters and lets you move towards Falco with more safety, while pressuring Falco to do something else. Obviously it can't have a big range, and it needs a bit of starting lag. f it's based on the Dead Man's Volley projectile he had in OoT, it can be a high hitstun projectile that if hits can be used to let you freely punish the opponent in a similar way to the Paralyzer.

It's probly a bad idea, but some input please?


Ultimately, i don't get the argument that "it doesn't fit his playstyle". You can adapt it to cover a projectile, smash is a very situational game, and projectiles have multiple uses. If there is a situation where it can be useful, why not? The Warlock Punch is redundant because Ganon has faster (hahaha) moves that should get the job done, but nothing he has can be used as a better answer to a projectile. Warlock Punch is situational, but using it is just being a show-off...

 

[Kati]

Unless I'm mistaken, nothing tops the punch when punishing missed rest attacks. This board is for discussing how Ganon currently plays, not for suggesting changes. I remember we tried long ago back on the smashmod boards, but it often felt like banging one's head against the wall.

With Ganon's new uptilt, it is far too soon to be suggesting changes. Dedicated players must show what Ganon can and can't do in 2.6b/3.0 before the pmbr can even consider changing him.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Unless I'm mistaken, nothing tops the punch when punishing missed rest attacks. This board is for discussing how Ganon currently plays, not for suggesting changes. I remember we tried long ago back on the smashmod boards, but it often felt like banging one's head against the wall.

With Ganon's new uptilt, it is far too soon to be suggesting changes. Dedicated players must show what Ganon can and can't do in 2.6b/3.0 before the pmbr can even consider changing him.

I though this was a board to discuss anything PM!Ganondorf related that doesn't go elsewhere, but okay. I, at leas, am not saying tha it shoud be changed now, i just would like input on my idea...

 

[Phaiyte]

GUYS:

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/urien-aegis.gif

 

[Yanoss1313]

GUYS:

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/urien-aegis.gif

that would work, but be hard to implement

 

[HMWii22]

My bad, I read it wrong. But a lot of characters have trouble with camping. All characters have advantages and disadvantages so I believe they won't change it up just because Ganon has a hard time when other characters also have a hard time against camping.

that font is borderline unreadable on both Dark and Ruby

 

[StarshipGroove]

It's awesome to pull off in casual play and that's reason enough to keep it. Many other character have one move that is bad but SO satisfying to pull off.
Leave it alone or just add some flair to it like windboxes, super armor, multi hit during charging or whatever. Volcano kick has already been replaced, and that move was fun as hell to use.

 

[Raijinken]

Turning him into Black Shadow (as discussed on the Clone Engine page) and then making a generally unique and series-based Ganondorf would probably be a better solution than trying to come up with a change in his moveset.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Turning him into Black Shadow (as discussed on the Clone Engine page) and then making a generally unique and series-based Ganondorf would probably be a better solution than trying to come up with a change in his moveset.

NO!... just, NO!.... we've been over this!... RAWRRRR! HULK SMASH!

 

[210stuna]

Definitely needs a laser

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

damnit dont change the punch just or make it chargeable about as long as lucas' neutral b. ganon ***** back and focuses dark energy in his fist, like mewtwos charged shadow ball. OR the triforce could light up showing a fully charged punch whatever, then the punch comes out just a tad slower than his f-smash, with him shouting and flashing purple before the punch comes out.
CONS
-should be too slow to be cheap and spammable.
-maybe somewhat weaker
-if ganon is hit out of ANY of his specials he will lose the charge, as all his specials involve dark magic( think of it as him losing his focus) for balance purposes obviously
PROS
it becomes viable, we can use it now. seems alot easier to implement than a projectile.
FUN

 

[Run DMX]

I believe Ganon's overall playstyle has already been well-established, and I think any projectile-like weapon would not compliment it at all. If anything, I like the idea of the earthquake punch from OoT.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I believe Ganon's overall playstyle has already been well-established, and I think any projectile-like weapon would not compliment it at all. If anything, I like the idea of the earthquake punch from OoT.

yeah i agree, but either way, now that 3.0 is out, it won't happen for a long time if ever >.<

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm totes serious about this, I can't concern myself over a neutral B when I can do a reversed Warlock Kick. That's so useful in tandem with the ground flame choke, it's godlk.

 

[Yanoss1313]

I'm totes serious about this, I can't concern myself over a neutral B when I can do a reversed Warlock Kick. That's so useful in tandem with the ground flame choke, it's godlk.

lol, i see you there
maybe i should put Doobey_doobey in my sig