Why is Fox considered a bad match-up for peach?

[Dominus Felis]

Here's a list of advantages peach has over Fox.

1. Peach is so good at edge-guarding Fox, so gimping is very easy against middle-lower skill levels.
2. Peach is only killed by drillshine up-smash by Fox, most of the time.
3. Good Peaches can time up+b's to counter shine-spikes.
4. U-throw chaingrabs, guaranteed on FD.

Disadvantages

1. Drill-shines builds percent, and leads to kill up-smash
2. Up-throw up-air can build lots of percent.
3. If the peach is not good, shine spiking is scary, but does not cancel a float.

 

[Wind]

fox wins the neutral game so hard

 

[Arche]

Fox can outcamp Peach with his lasers, so Peach has to approach. Fox then uses his vastly superior movements to win the neutral more often than she does, even though Peach has greater rewards.

 

[Dominus Felis]

Fox can outcamp Peach with his lasers, so Peach has to approach. Fox then uses his vastly superior movements to win the neutral more often than she does, even though Peach has greater rewards.

In my experience, I am evenly skilled on both sides of the match-up, and peach is vastly superior. For example, the only stage that fox can succeed at camping me is on Dreamland, Peach's... best... stage. Fox eventually has to approach, and that's when you hit him with the quick FC nair, or grab him. There is a line where fox beats peach, and that line is drawn at the point where the fox can Up smash OOS, wave dash consistently, and L-cancel consistently. Until then, peach has the advantage, and after that, it's slightly fox favored.

 

[Dominus Felis]

fox wins the neutral game so hard

The neutral game is where peach CC down smashes nairs, and the only way to approach is with shine, which I can grab you while you try to do.

 

[Narpas_sword]

and that line is drawn at the point where the fox can Up smash OOS, wave dash consistently, and L-cancel consistently. Until then, peach has the advantage, and after that, it's slightly fox favored.

just so you know, Matchups, by default, are only ever referring to top level of play. (unless for some reason someone is trying to talk about low level, but then you have to debate what exactly 'low level' is and where the line gets drawn.

 

[dfrogman]

wave dash consistently, and L-cancel consistently

only the highest of standards for this one huh

 

[Dominus Felis]

only the highest of standards for this one huh

I know, it's silly that I have to specify, but OOS Up-smashes are easier than wavedashes if someone watches you and tells you what you're doing wrong.

 

[Dominus Felis]

just so you know, Matchups, by default, are only ever referring to top level of play. (unless for some reason someone is trying to talk about low level, but then you have to debate what exactly 'low level' is and where the line gets drawn.

Well, I feel that the top level is so small that if I'm going to talk about MU's I want to talk about MU's at my skill level, and I've never been to a tournament, not a top player, not talking about top level play.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The point is, even if youre not talking high level, everyone else is.

 

[Dominus Felis]

The point is, even if youre not talking high level, everyone else is.

If you are not a high level player, you are not qualified to give your opinions of high level MU's, regardless of how common it is. If you are not high level, you have no authority to give your opinion of these matchups.

 

[dfrogman]

there are no "matchups" outside of the top level of technical play. if you're making more or worse technical errors than your opponent, there is no deeper fact in the matter as to what is "going on" in the game beyond that, just like there is no underlying "structure" to the matchup between a peach player with frame perfect techs x y z and a fox player that consistently makes technical errors g s c

I know, it's silly that I have to specify, but OOS Up-smashes are easier than wavedashes if someone watches you and tells you what you're doing wrong.

i'm not sure you should be waving your opinions about matchups around (especially a matchup that has been developed as much as fox/peach especially in recent years) if you're saying things like this and expecting people to just agree with you

 

[Dominus Felis]

My point is that talking about top level matchups is useless, because almost nobody is that good. There are matchups that low. You have no reason to deny that. Seriously, Up-smash OOS is easier than wave dashing consistently as fox. That's not objective, but that means that neither of us are RIGHT.

Proof: I can do 100 perfect OOS up-smashes in a row, but I can only do about 5 perfect wavedashes in a row, that's likely my fault for not liking fox as much as I should.

 

[Hahaae]

I'm sorry, but are you dense?

It's already been specified that Fox can EASILY outcamp Peach with lasers, tacking on huge percent and forcing Peach to approach. Not sure what you don't understand about that. You make up these scenarios, claiming that Fox HAS to approach with a nair, in which case you could CC dsmash them, or grab a shine attempt. You do realize that there are such things as baits, and your hypothetical answers to said approaches wouldn't work, right? If those are your answers, what would you do if someone runs up and wavedashes away, baiting out a grab or dsmash, then punishes you? What if someone decides to tomahawk you? You also realize that Fox could easily just laser you until CC no longer works, and then come in and have a field day with you, right?

Drillshine -> upsmash is definitely not the only way that a Fox kills Peach, lmao. Shinespikes work just fine against Peach. Laser to higher percents and bairs work just as well, and there's also the bread-and-butter upthrow upair. You claim to be equally good at both sides of the MU, yet you've proven that you know very little about the characters' options. I'd recommend not throwing out the baseless claims until you at least go to some tournaments. And yes, a decent Fox would destroy you.

 

[Dominus Felis]

I will admit I'm not perfect but as I mentioned I am very good at gimping Fox and gimping in general, and laser camping is not very good against peach as I see it, because approaching Fox is not hard, just not as easy as the reverse. Feel free to disagree, but don't insult me.

The point of this post is to say that Fox is not as good against Peach as people say. I say it's actually peach favored. To each their own.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Peach only wins against for at lower level. Once you get good you'll stop feeling at such a disadvantage. Think of Fox as a long term investment and about Peach as a short term investment

I think the only one who can speak on Peach's behalf is Armada, and he thinks the Peach matchup is to our advantage. Sorry but I've never heard of your name and you probably suck at this game so your opinion holds no weight.

 

[_A1]

The general consensus is that Fox wins, but only slightly. It's not like Fox counters Peach or something.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

The general consensus is that Fox wins, but only slightly. It's not like Fox counters Peach or something.

Fox is a very good character to counterpick against peach.

 

[sadistic]

The neutral game is where peach CC down smashes nairs, and the only way to approach is with shine, which I can grab you while you try to do.

I'm pretty sure fox drill > shine cannot be CC d-smashed by Peach, but I'm not sure.

Upthrow > up-air might not be a true combo on Peach, but if Armada can't avoid it 100% of the time, it must be pretty difficult to avoid.

 

[Arche]

Nah, you can't CC Dsmash a Dair Shine, although you can do it against Nair until 82% ( ~120% if weak Nair).

 

[_A1]

Fox is a very good character to counterpick against peach.

There's a difference between "soft counter" and "counter". Fox is only a soft counter.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

There's a difference between "soft counter" and "counter". Fox is only a soft counter.

I think fox and peach have relatively even punish and edgeguard games(although slightly both in fox's favor) on each other but fox has a very large advantage in the neutral game. It's not an extremely hard counter but it's still a pretty bad disadvantage for peach.

 

[Kidney Thief]

Well to be fair peach has a better punish game for sure, but if you can win the neutral enough times that won't do much for you

 

[The Soap]

Fox eventually has to approach

No, he doesn't.

 

[princesswill]

peach main turned fox here, (lasers + drillshine + waveshine + up smash + up air)
i love my peach edge guards on fox as much as the next guy but as someone already said, you completely lose the neutral

 

[Wind]

Honestly, I've played a number of well known peaches out there who beat me REALLY HARD, and I still think that Fox wins. Peach just doesn't have many options in the neutral besides completely reading and outsmarting Fox.

 

[RedQuelll]

This topic was kind of redundant. It started off as a question, then once you were given and answer you acted childish and told basically everyone they were wrong and that you were right (why ask a question then?) when this is a very subjective topic. OBJECTIVELY, fox wins the matchup, talking highest level of play that is. High level players of equal skill playing at their absolute best , one playing fox and one playing peach. The fox will win. This is with constants of course. If we are not talking about the highest level of play, then match ups effectively don't exist because hell I can beat all my friends with kirby when they play fox decisively, and where I may consider my self a very good fox, I am no where near as good as top level players for instance.

 

[Dominus Felis]

Well I think lasers don't actually force peach to approach, because it doesn't work. I'm not really sure how, but it DOESN'T. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I don' tell people they're wrong, people tell me I'm wrong.

 

[RedQuelll]

They do..it's not something subjective. For instance, It's not as blatant as "will upsmash kill at 120%", but unless you want to never touch fox and have **** tons of damage applied to you by lasers, only for the inevitable jc upsmash...you're gonna have to approach. No questions asked. Fox controls the flow of the matchup, he is far and away better in terms of speed and movement. He has all the options to camp the hell out of you (why characters have counterpicks ect so shi# like that doesnt always happen) Basically, the match up is very much about reads from peach's perspective. If you can get the reads you can get some DISGUSTING punishes. CC downsmash and the fox player will calm down a little. Float cancel and nair near the ledge, fox better hope he can reliably sweetspot the ledge or its over. Got snipes? punish the careless recovery. Gotta play the punish game, you main peach so it may be frustrating to accept that, but it's fun in its own right. I love playing my pocket peach. But you have to accept the role of the match up, unless you think you can change the peach meta haha. I'd recommend a spacie if you want a supernfast hyper agressive character to change up the punish heavy gameplay

 

[RedQuelll]

I'm sorry, but are you dense?

It's already been specified that Fox can EASILY outcamp Peach with lasers, tacking on huge percent and forcing Peach to approach. Not sure what you don't understand about that. You make up these scenarios, claiming that Fox HAS to approach with a nair, in which case you could CC dsmash them, or grab a shine attempt. You do realize that there are such things as baits, and your hypothetical answers to said approaches wouldn't work, right? If those are your answers, what would you do if someone runs up and wavedashes away, baiting out a grab or dsmash, then punishes you? What if someone decides to tomahawk you? You also realize that Fox could easily just laser you until CC no longer works, and then come in and have a field day with you, right?

Drillshine -> upsmash is definitely not the only way that a Fox kills Peach, lmao. Shinespikes work just fine against Peach. Laser to higher percents and bairs work just as well, and there's also the bread-and-butter upthrow upair. You claim to be equally good at both sides of the MU, yet you've proven that you know very little about the characters' options. I'd recommend not throwing out the baseless claims until you at least go to some tournaments. And yes, a decent Fox would destroy you.

Did you make an account to reply to this guy? If so, that's genuinly hilarious and I applaud you.

 

[Dominus Felis]

Did you make an account to reply to this guy? If so, that's genuinly hilarious and I applaud you.

If we're talking about the VERY TOP level, like perfection level, perfect powershields force fox to approach sometimes, and I feel that a better peach will always win, but a better fox will not always win, remember Genesis, Armada vs. mang0...

 

[_A1]

If we're talking about the VERY TOP level, like perfection level, perfect powershields force fox to approach sometimes, and I feel that a better peach will always win, but a better fox will not always win, remember Genesis, Armada vs. mang0...

VERY TOP level means the height of the metagame at this point in time. So in this matchup it would be Armada vs Leffen or something, not TAS-level stuff.

Armada's Fox wasn't better though.

 

[Dominus Felis]

Armada's Fox wasn't better though.[/quote]
I think Armada beat Mang0 at one of the Genesis tournaments, maybe I'm thinking genesis 2.

 

[dfrogman]

Seriously, Up-smash OOS is easier than wave dashing consistently as fox. That's not objective, but that means that neither of us are RIGHT.

Proof: I can do 100 perfect OOS up-smashes in a row, but I can only do about 5 perfect wavedashes in a row, that's likely my fault for not liking fox as much as I should.

i think you understand the meaning of about half of the words you used in this post

hey but at least you watched genesis coverage!

VERY TOP level means the height of the metagame at this point in time. So in this matchup it would be Armada vs Leffen or something, not TAS-level stuff.

this. we still have no idea what TAS-level matchups look like when played like humans. we do have an idea of what matchups look like when played by our best smashers to the best of their knowledge, which is, of course, different in a lot of ways

 

[Dominus Felis]

i think you understand the meaning of about half of the words you used in this post

A wavedash is an airdodge at an angle to quickly slide across the ground without turning around. (I play Luigi, I can wavedash)
OOS=Out of shield.
Objective=Not able to refuted; fact beyond doubt.

 

[unknown522]

Here's a list of advantages peach has over Fox.

1. Peach is so good at edge-guarding Fox, so gimping is very easy against middle-lower skill levels.
2. Peach is only killed by drillshine up-smash by Fox, most of the time.
3. Good Peaches can time up+b's to counter shine-spikes.
4. U-throw chaingrabs, guaranteed on FD.

Disadvantages

1. Drill-shines builds percent, and leads to kill up-smash
2. Up-throw up-air can build lots of percent.
3. If the peach is not good, shine spiking is scary, but does not cancel a float.

I don't want to sound rude, but there are a lot of ways around some of the points you mentioned. After reading those points, that would be true if you don't know what you're doing vs peach, especially regarding the edgeguard parts

 

[Dominus Felis]

This is the last post I will make, and I will say that I find high level Peach vs. Fox in favor of fox. I am not qualified to make that assumption however, because I've never even been to a tournament, don't play either character, and I have a distaste for fox. I see now that my floaty bias is showing, and I need to just unfollow the post.