Why I play Lucina, competitively, over Marth

AUnique

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#49
The reason I play Lucina over Marth is because although both play in the exact same way, it feels to me like she's better for non-optimal playstyle.

What I mean is, since hitting a tipper doesn't only depend on you, but also on your opponent's positioning, thing which is affected by DI/ his or her movement, a slight change in it can mean either a whiff, or a sourspot.

Against faster characters, I feel dumbfounded by the fact that a small misprediction in their already harder-to-follow movement can be a complete momentum shift. But to play at your very best with Marth, you must always aim for the tipper; Lucina, however, gets the same reward whether she does one thing or the other.

Sooo, even if not trying to space properly is an arguably inferior tactic, it could still work at times I guess...

Just my opinion and experience though! No one should take it too seriously xD
 

SherrdreamZ

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#50
Overall the only advantage to Marth, Lucina has is a more dependable expectation of where your opponent will be following your strikes. She deals slightly better than Marth against being rushed down.

However the Tipper mechanic i see as strictly superior overall even with Lucina's few advantages. Striking and killing on most attacks 30% quicker and the ability to to gain more advantage with spacing with Marth leads to him overall being a more efficient fighter. That being said if you feel having a more balanced blade is more to your liking, or like me just like Lucina as a character than shatter all expectations of your fate of being in Marth's Shadow. Simply outplay your adversaries who would deem her as less viable or inferior... Skill is the greatest Factor overall with Marcina not mechanics. :)
 

Plategoron

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#51
I see Lucina having 2 actual advantages over Marth:
1. Side B tippers are rare, meaning that Lucina will deal more damage with it. Also, she can kill with it earlier, since the opponent can DI out of the tipper range against Marth
2. Fsmash kills reliably early at ~80%, other than Marth who can kill with a tipper really early at ~40%. Though, when Marth doesn't get the tipper, his Fsmash is kinda weak, at least in terms of a smash attack.
With that, landing a successfull Fsmash-read is a lot easier to pull off with Lucina, than it is with Marth.

Overall, I'd still say, that Marth is the better character, because he can kill more reliably, when the opponent is actively paying attention to not get hit by smashes. If Lucina isn't landing any smashes or gimps, the opponent will live to over 150% and often even further. In this situation Marth would only need one tippered aerial to end the stock.
 

red hot roy

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#56

Nika

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#57
Yeah that's what Marths say... it's up to us to prove them wrong. That's kinda why I posted this in the first place - I wanted to explain why you might prefer Lucina beyond "well she can rushdown" (not a good argument).
 

Zoramine Fae

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#58
I myself have about 150 matches into Lucina and Marth (I got sm4sh 3ds late August, don't kill me :x) and I've come to the conclusion that Lucina feels better for me more so than Marth. Especially for the fact that, as the original post had said, the hitboxes seem to line up better. Two reasons that I'd like to add, though, are that Lucina can be a bit more aggressive and kill much easier than Marth does (considering she doesn't require the stupid tipper that never activates when you want it to) and that, personal opinion here, Dancing Blade is my favorite move to use in general. Especially the downward tilted version, it just is so nice to activate as fast as possible once you get its timing down.
 

Zoramine Fae

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#60
Ofc why does every Lucina/Marth use dancing blade? ;-; I use jab combos and jab to grab setups and all I hear is dancing blade.
I use jab to grab myself (even though usually I just space opponents with FAir or NAir, never really use jabs as many characters outside of Link), but I just love Dancing Blade. I have loved it since Brawl where my brothers could NOT manage to get past it. Probably more just muscle memory and me liking the attack due to it making me think which combo I want to use.

...I'm a nutcase...
 

SherrdreamZ

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#61
I don't feel Jab Combos are as easy, or as punishing in utility as Dancing Blade. At the end of the combo you have alot of options with which route you want to go depending on the situation. Up, Forward or Down. and off of that combo often leaves you the chance to follow up. It's good to mix it up but Jab-Grab isn't guaranteed at many percents that i know of? and following up after D-Throw is sketchy at best with Marcina IMO.
 
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AUnique

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#64
I mostly use dancing blade, when I need to run first to punish a laggy move of my opponent.
This, and for Air DB to either NAir/UAir or landing grab punish, since Shield Breaker doesn't work anymore :(

I've recently been trying DB1 as a gimp tool as well, since it can beat most recoveries without stupid priority, has a lesser risk on miss than FAir/BAir due to lower FAF, and can easily create a 50/50 on hit! At least from my experience.

Aside from those things, I believe Jab1 outclasses DB due to how unreliable the latter is to hit on the ground, and the multiple mixups the former offers.

A quick question: If your opponent has a quick aerial capable of breaking Air DB mixups, how do you counter it? Airdodge causes landing lag and Counter is punishable and unrewarding in such scenario, so what other options are possible?
 
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MrMag

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#65
I feel a little bit better with Lucina. it's really hard to explain but I feel like I do better with her over Marth.

That and (the obvious reason) is cause waifu
 

Nika

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#66
DB is great but it's very character/percentage dependent. You need experience to tell you when you can use it.

For example, against fast-fallers like Fox, Sheik, and Greninja, it doesn't combo at 0% - they can just hold down and shield it. You'll actually get punished for landing the first hit. The good news is, it starts comboing around 20% and remains a combo until like 70% or something, much higher than for an average character.

Against most characters, it combos from maybe 0%-50%. Against very light characters like Puff and Kirby it only combos at very low percents, they can just DI up and away to escape.

What I love about DB is that it's almost as fast as jab, can be activated while dashing or in the air, and it potentially deals a guaranteed 14%-20% (depending on what finisher you can land). However, you don't want to use it at high percents because it won't combo and you should be looking for kills then anyway.

So I usually use DB to build up damage against characters who are in the middle of the fast-faller/floaty spectrum. To build up damage vs. fast-fallers, the best option is dthrow > uair or just jabs/aerials until they hit DB percent, then go ham with DB. Against floaties, it's pretty hard but they mostly have bad range so you can kinda just space them out with fair/nair/ftilt/jab.

A quick question: If your opponent has a quick aerial capable of breaking Air DB mixups, how do you counter it? Airdodge causes landing lag and Counter is punishable and unrewarding in such scenario, so what other options are possible?
Do you mean after hitting DB hit 1, or instead of using DB? I think DB 1 true combos into the rest of DB (unless they can DI away/shield as above).
 

AUnique

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#67
After hitting DB1, sorry if my phrasing was confusing. As you probably know, Air DB1 puts you at a frame disadvantage and is really hard to pull off if your opponent expects it (Much like all of Lucina's setups), so I'd like to know a passable mixup for such situation.
 

SherrdreamZ

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#68
After hitting DB1, sorry if my phrasing was confusing. As you probably know, Air DB1 puts you at a frame disadvantage and is really hard to pull off if your opponent expects it (Much like all of Lucina's setups), so I'd like to know a passable mixup for such situation.
An Optimal Mix-Up i use is (Aerial DB after Shorthop into U-Air into "U-Tilt... or F-Smash") if they DI away from you. It an be a sneaky kill option and is just about guaranteed if you land the first DB at Low-Mid %.
 

Nika

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#70
Does aerial DB 1 have different frame properties than the grounded version? I didn't think so but I haven't tested it - pretty sure I've started matches on Battlefield with running off the platform, then aerial DB 1 into DB up-up-up.

In any case, Sherrdream's suggestion is good if you can hit it, though I think it's only really useful as a punish - very risky as an approach or mix-up.
 

Sanae

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#72
I didn't say "All Mart mains are mean", I meant the majority I know seem to look down on me and scoff at me for maining Lucina.
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, some of them can be like that. I just so happen to play as both, although Marth a little bit more than Lucina.
 

AUnique

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#73
Does aerial DB 1 have different frame properties than the grounded version?
As far as I know, the only differences are in FAF if the combo isn't continued, and in frames that allow the input of the next part of DB (Say, Air DB1 gives you 10 frames to input DB2; grounded DB1 gives you 15. Just an example).
 

SherrdreamZ

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#74
Does aerial DB 1 have different frame properties than the grounded version? I didn't think so but I haven't tested it - pretty sure I've started matches on Battlefield with running off the platform, then aerial DB 1 into DB up-up-up.

In any case, Sherrdream's suggestion is good if you can hit it, though I think it's only really useful as a punish - very risky as an approach or mix-up.

Right Nika agreed ^^, any approach utility from said mix-up will come from a solid read, and or possibly off of meeting your opponent's aerial pressure with a well timed DB1 into said combo. Never use this liberally, but the % Bonus along with putting them back in the air can catch people off guard and allow for follow up Aerials. Any "safe" combo that can keep up offensive pressure as Marcina gives you just that much more of an advantage to control Spacing in favor of the Falchion(s).
 

Nika

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#76
Well, Marth is less effective than Lucina when he doesn't get the tipper. It's harder to get the perfect spacing required for a tipper against rushdown characters, but Lucina doesn't care.

It's true that Lucina and Marth have the same ideal spacing - they want to keep you at the tip of their sword - but Lucina is better than Marth when opponents break into that space.
 

grafcar

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#77
Anyone interested into a character analysis and breakdown of lucina with me. Also we can talk about lucina s neutral game and matchups against other character
 

SherrdreamZ

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#78
Anyone interested into a character analysis and breakdown of lucina with me. Also we can talk about lucina s neutral game and matchups against other character
What do you mean exactly grafcar grafcar ? there is a thread pertaining to "Match-Up Spread, or are you talking more about a casual chat about these things in PM's? Or maybe you have your own idea that fits neither of these?
 

grafcar

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#79
What do you mean exactly grafcar grafcar ? there is a thread pertaining to "Match-Up Spread, or are you talking more about a casual chat about these things in PM's? Or maybe you have your own idea that fits neither of these?
I didn't know there was a thread about it, i just kind of saw this one and thought that some Lucina mains would like hear it, you know, casual talk over the character overall and the match ups. Sorry I didn't know about the thread, im kind of new here :)
 

Nika

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#80
This thread was started to provide some answers to a common question: Is there any reason to play Lucina competitively over Marth? I've heard lots of people say there isn't, and as a competitive Lucina main who's experimented with switching to Marth several times, I thought I had a useful perspective to contribute.

grafcar, if you have specific matchup questions maybe try the Q&A thread? We were just discussing the Sheik MU there. I believe there's also a character matchup thread in the Marth forum, most of that discussion would apply to Lucina too. We used to have one here but I think it got merged with theirs or it just died or something.
 
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