Why don't more Zelda's use her Aerial Interrupts?

[Uzco Halal]

I'm a bit puzzled about this....

Zelda's Fair and Uair can AI on platforms and from the ledge

On platforms it seems like the fastest option since the Fair makes her ECB rise above the plat triggering the AC before normally reaching through jumps or WLs. It's also quite consistent and fairly easy to do (Jump DJ Fair with the right timing)

From the ledge she has one of the earliest AIs in the game giving her almost as much intangible time from the ledge as CF (she gets 13 frames if you perfectly Fair up ledge on battle field)...

I'm not a very technical person and I can do the Fair AI from ledge like 7/10 times. At the worst you end up just quickly fairing on stage.

 

[SSBM_Lan]

Its too risky, especially when you can just NIL. Much more easier and more consistent.

 

[Uzco Halal]

Its too risky, especially when you can just NIL. Much more easier and more consistent.

Risky? I've almost got it to the point where I can do it every time on plats and ledge, you have 8-13 frames of intangibility afterwards. If you overshoot you still get a Fair out since it only doesn't AC unless the hitbox comes out.

Zelda's NIL doesn't leave you with any intangibility from the ledge, so that doesn't make any sense. And on plats it's a slow option, slower than WLs.

 

[F. Stein]

>.> If that's considered risky then you really don't want to do ledge techs with Ganon lol. I never knew Zelda could do this, I'll have to go try it out.

 

[ikrager]

Serious questions for people who don't know all the terminology or acronyms.

What does "ECB" "NIL" and "CF" mean? Also not sure what you mean by Aerial Interupt?

EDIT: months later, I'm not as nooby lmao

 

[Kaeldiar]

Serious questions for people who don't know all the terminology or acronyms.

What does "ECB" "NIL" and "CF" mean? Also not sure what you mean by Aerial Interupt?

I play Zelda as well, but having a little trouble comprehending what you mean.

ECB is "environment collision box," which is what determines running into other people, a wall, or a platform

NIL is "no impact landing," which is like a soft landing, when you land and only have 1 frame of landlag. Full hop with Falco on BF to the top platform and you'll see

CF is Captain Falcon

The people who are familiar enough with Aerial Interrupts to actually answer his question as to when they are good/bad would be more than familiar with these terms. These are very advanced and technical Smash concepts that aren't commonly encountered, however, so it is completely understandable to be unfamiliar with them. I would suggest watching this video if you want to learn

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Can you record yourself doing it from ledge a couple of times in a row? I did it a few times but I was never able to do any consecutively. Even a cell phone recording if your TV will work, I just want something to reference for the timing, I guess. If you know what I mean by that?

I want to include this in my next Zelda tutorial vid so all the information you can provide would be helpful

 

[Masondeanm]

I've found 3 specific ways to achieve this from the ledge, none giving 13 acionable frames, but one giving 9 actionable frames and 4 landing frames, so maybe that's the 13 you're talking about?

 

[343]

http://smashboards.com/threads/undiscovered-aerial-interrupts.382946/#post-18229361 is 13 frames of "grounded actionable ledge intangibility"

 

[Upke]

I, along with Chandy, would like to see a video performance. I've messed around with it before but never found such consistency. It could very well be that I don't get to practice often enough, seeing as I don't have my own setup, but seeing it done consistently may show me what I'm doing wrong, if that is the case.

Also, it should be noted that getting the fair hitbox out instead of AI hardly makes it safe. Hitting anyone from the ledge with Zelda at all is largely a gimmick, as they really have no reason to be in her threatening zone, and it offers them an opportunity to whiff punish. This doesn't even include the unfortunate scenario of not making it on stage, in which case you are 100% dead.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I, along with Chandy, would like to see a video performance. I've messed around with it before but never found such consistency. It could very well be that I don't get to practice often enough, seeing as I don't have my own setup, but seeing it done consistently may show me what I'm doing wrong, if that is the case.

Also, it should be noted that getting the fair hitbox out instead of AI hardly makes it safe. Hitting anyone from the ledge with Zelda at all is largely a gimmick, as they really have no reason to be in her threatening zone, and it offers them an opportunity to whiff punish. This doesn't even include the unfortunate scenario of not making it on stage, in which case you are 100% dead.

I mostly play PM, but I decided to try this in Melee, considering the timing should be identical. I use a QC motion to do this, which helps immensely in my case: then immediatelythenand finally at the right time. Instant jump is important so that you don't end up Battlefielding yourself. In PM, I would roll my thumb from to as soon as the stage collision pushed her outward, and how slow my fingers are happened to be the perfect timing There isn't as obvious a visual cue in Melee, but the timing is the same, so I'm still getting it with about 50% accuracy. In PM, I get closer to 70%. Here is what it looks like. It should be noted that I don't use this in tourney, so acting quickly out of it is something that I can't do yet. In other words, that d-tilt was SUPER SLOW to come out. Sorry for poor recording quality, but I didn't feel like setting up my full recording setup. ANYWAYS, here you go: Video of Kaeldiar trying to be swag

 

[Plunder]

Thanks for saving me the time Kaeldiar, heck I was about to record myself even doing these back to back (and I don't main Zelda).

I consider this one of the EASIEST AIs in the game from ledge, I remember trying these when Schmoo posted about it. Right away I was able to get it like 60% of the time, same goes for the plat AI fair, it's more lenient than Mewtwo's Nair AI which I can't get as consistent.

I think the attitude of the doubters this thread is sort of indicative of the way low tier mains always seem to limit their own progress, It's like there is a self-imposed skill cap for stuff that is "too technical". Top tiers have things that are much more difficult and precise and they have no issues doing them consistently. If you can't do it, or perhaps you haven't found uses for something, it can usually mean you just haven't figured it out or spent enough time with it.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Thanks for saving me the time Kaeldiar, heck I was about to record myself even doing these back to back (and I don't main Zelda).

I consider this one of the EASIEST AIs in the game from ledge, I remember trying these when Schmoo posted about it. Right away I was able to get it like 60% of the time, same goes for the plat AI fair, it's more lenient than Mewtwo's Nair AI which I can't get as consistent.

I think the attitude of the doubters this thread is sort of indicative of the way low tier mains always seem to limit their own progress, It's like there is a self-imposed skill cap for stuff that is "too technical". Top tiers have things that are much more difficult and precise and they have no issues doing them consistently. If you can't do it, or perhaps you haven't found uses for something, it can usually mean you just haven't figured it out or spent enough time with it.

It's a risk-reward thing. Doing this is very high risk, but very low reward. It only gets you a couple more i-frames, you sacrifice the flexibility of being able to put yourself wherever you want with the air dodge, and if you whiff or get a sourspot kick, you're eating a huge punish from a REALLY bad position.

 

[Plunder]

It's a risk-reward thing. Doing this is very high risk, but very low reward. It only gets you a couple more i-frames, you sacrifice the flexibility of being able to put yourself wherever you want with the air dodge, and if you whiff or get a sourspot kick, you're eating a huge punish from a REALLY bad position.

You should at least consider that you've probably not explored this in Melee in an actual match, you sound awfully confident. What bothers me here is that you are you're theory-crafting with tunnel vision, you are assuming this option can be reacted to and predicted 100% of the time (it definitely can't), as if there is nothing else Zelda can do at the ledge; such as invincible Wind stall, fade away Fair regrab, Wave land, Hax Dash, Air dodge through, or any of the other normal options such as get up, attack, roll up, etc. Option select is very important if you are going to theorycraft.

Other wise you get the same kind of theory crafting that serves no purpose like when people talk nonsense about an opponent miraculously constantly holding down being able to CC punish everything in neutral. And that somehow completely theoretically nullfying legit approaches and characters that work all the way to the highest level in practical use.

Falco's double lasers up from ledge is probably 10x dumber and riskier but you still see it at a high level and it still works way too often. You have to factor in reaction time and the fact that you have other options they are looking out for.

To use your example - If I hit you with the sourspot kick you will be in hitstun and probably hit the ground before you can even react, at mid-high percents Melee sour kick is strong enough to lead into dash attack or sweet kick, sometimes even grab. And if you whiff it and L cancel on stage, it's true you are in a bad position but how in the heck are you going to get punished so hard every-time? That's 9 frames of land lag and then you can shield or do anything else. No one has like 8-12 frame reaction time in a match and the range on Fair would allow buffer room if you do whiff.

Zelda is not good and I'm not saying her AI from ledge is god like but it is actually pretty good for her spot on the tier list. She can get an invincible dash attack off, jab, D smash (inv. run through Dsmash, DD pivot Dsmash), jump through bair, get a grab (you'd have to be frame perfect)

It's unexplored and it's actually easier than the spacies ledge dashes and many other top tier techs that can already be done consistently. I think if you want to play Zelda and be serious about it this is one tech that's a necessity for future mains in this meta.

 

[Comet7]

13 frames of invincibility makes me wonder why you wouldn't use it often, aside from exectution difficulty. even just running to center stage to get the space with it seems really good.

you could probably use the invincibility to go back to the ledge with a kick if you wanted for whatever reason, it'd probably be really safe.

 

[kjkj309]

Are you supposed to be fast falling for this? With fast falling I'm getting the aerial interrupt but I barely have any invincibility left.

 

[Plunder]

No fast fall for either method

Battle Field 13 GALINT

1 - Drop
2 - DoubleJump towards stage
7 - Fair
13 - Land autocancel
17 - Can Cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible

Other stages 9 GALINT

1 - Drop (no fastfall)
5 - DoubleJump towards stage
11 - Fair
17 - Land - autocancels
21 - Can cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible


You can FF and still get the AC but you will have about half as much inv. frames on average.

Also to note that Schmoo found an 8 inv. frame Bair L cancel from ledge but it's more input heavy of course.

 

[Masondeanm]

I just don't see this ever being a thing considering you need two frame perfect inputs.

 

[Plunder]

I just don't see this ever being a thing considering you need two frame perfect inputs.

Why are there so many stream monsters on this site who talk out their bum?

Actually record yourself doing this in 20XX and just in normal mode.

There is quite a bit of tolerance; those figures are for maximum inv. frames (and as I said you can even use FF variations) this is not a frame perfect tech lol.
It's actually easier than spacies Ledge dash. Definitely a hell of a lot easier than spacies perfect ledge dash.

I would agree it won't ever be a thing for you, but for anyone with intermediate tech skill and to those willing to practice it could easily be a thing.

 

[Magus420]

Why are there so many stream monsters on this site who talk out their bum?

Actually record yourself doing this in 20XX and just in normal mode.

There is quite a bit of tolerance; those figures are for maximum inv. frames (and as I said you can even use FF variations) this is not a frame perfect tech lol.
It's actually easier than spacies Ledge dash. Definitely a hell of a lot easier than spacies perfect ledge dash.

I would agree it won't ever be a thing for you, but for anyone with intermediate tech skill and to those willing to practice it could easily be a thing.

If there is tolerance feel free to post alternate timings that work, but from what I can tell her ledge AIs need the DJ and f-air to be on those exact frames listed. All combinations of +1/0/-1 on the jump and f-air did not work. No combination that works with FF from ledge either. So yes, 2 frame perfect inputs.

 

[Plunder]

Yes there absolutely are FF combinations that work, I believe they are even shown back to back in a video posted just a few messages above (his timing wasn't ideal, but it demos the possibility).

As I said they don't have nearly as many I-frames upon the AI, but they do work and they have I-frames. You shouldn't even have to test these to know it's possible, Zeldas body contorts and the Fair AIs the same way you just catch the AI newr the peak instead of the upswing of the DJ when you use FF variations.

Here is one FF example of timing for BF -
1 FF drop
4 DJ
9-13 Start holding in
15-16 Fair (this may extend to 17, have not tested 17th frame Fair)
20 AI on Ledge
24 SAF

There also is the same kind of tolerance on when you just let go DJ and land a Fair AI. It's obviously all relative, so you will lose I-frames and not get the entire 13 frames of course (concerning BF). This is the same for almost any ledge tech that has tolerance such as the simple ledge dash.

A non-FF example on BF -
1 Release
6 DJ toward ledge
14 Fair
19 AI on Ledge
23 SAF

It's a bit strange that you would experiment with only 3 timings and conclude that no combination or tolerance is possible. That's kinda lazy considering your usual interest and thoroughness with tech and frame data (and this character).

Have you experimented with this AI much outside of frame advance or TAS? I would be sure someone with your skill could do it at least semi-consistently at 1x.

 

[Magus420]

I tried all possible timings of jump and f-air from the ledge after FFing for a similar AI to those 2 that uses the large downward ECB shift of frame 7 of f-air. Unless it's some awkward delayed FF (adding a 3rd input timing requirement) rather than drop+FF I don't think she can FF for those.

Being able to AI early in the jump doesn't mean she also can later into the jump the same way. The further into the jump she is the wider the ECB becomes and pushes her away from the wall, unable to clear the ledge by frame 7 of f-air when the ECB dips.

I tested the timings adjacent to them because that's what tolerance on them would be... If there exists entirely isolated timings that is not tolerance, that's a different AI. On a ledge dash if you AD 1 frame early you fail, 1 frame late you get imperfect ledgedash, 2 frames late a bit sloppier, ... X frames late it fails, but there are no failure timings in the middle of it. The BF and non-BF AIs you quoted earlier that land using fr7 of f-air need 2 frame perfect inputs as far as I can tell and have nothing to do with f-air AIs that are done by dropping much lower first, staying in the jump much longer, then land using fr1/2 of f-air after clearing the edge. EDIT: Found a few other fr7 f-air landings but not next to it.

I have experimented with it a bit, but using those timings as a guideline. Seeing as they don't have timings adjacent to them that also work I had about as much consistency with it as one could expect with 2 frame perfect inputs.

What would be actually useful would be finding timings that don't have holes between them and aiming for that.

 

[Plunder]

So far in this thread some people said 13 frame GALINT wasn't possible on BF
FF Fair AI wasn't possible
alternate timings on both FF and non-FF weren't possible
Independent tolerance on some Fair AIs weren't possible

All were just disproven in this thread and Kael posted a vid showing himself doing several back to back. I can do the same with only the week I practiced these when schmoo posted about it.

If the Zelda mains and others want to dismiss something that they haven't even explored I'm no longer gonna try and convince you otherwise. Did not expect it to be such an uphill battle.

 

[Magus420]

I feel like you're missing the point. Like how is a FF variation that has the Jump->Kick timing 11-13 frames apart tolerance for variations that have Jump->Kick 5 frames apart? You can have plenty of variations that work, but if they don't overlap anywhere you're not going to become consistent with it with additional practice. It'd just be easy to see moderate success at doing it because being in the ballpark will land on a timing that works out some of the time.

If there are indeed timings that overlap it'd be worth practicing them once they figured out, but stuff like those 13/9 GALINT ones aren't really worth investing time into.

 

[Magus420]

Spoiler: alladafairledgeais

Drop Frames|Jump Frames|AI Frame|Drop|FF|Jump|F-Air|Land|Action|GALINT|Stages
+1|+5|7|1|-|2|7|13|17|13|BF/DL/FoD/--/--/--
+3|+6|7|1|-|4|10|16|20|10|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+4|+6|7|1|-|5|11|17|21|9|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+6|+7|7|1|-|7|14|20|24|6|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+7|+8|7|1|-|8|16|22|26|4|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+8|+8|7|1|-|9|17|23|27|3|BF/DL/FoD/--/--/--
+8|+9|7|1|-|9|18|24|28|2|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+9|+9|7|1|-|10|19|25|29|1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+9|+10|7|1|-|10|20|26|30|0|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+10|+10|7|1|-|11|21|27|31|-1|BF/DL/FoD/--/--/--
+10|+11|7|1|-|11|22|28|32|-2|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD

+2|+8|7|1|2|3|11|17|21|9|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+3|+10|7|1|2|4|14|20|24|6|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+11|7|1|2|4|15|21|25|5|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+4|+14|7|1|2|5|19|25|29|1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+4|+15|7|1|2|5|20|26|30|0|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+4|+16|7|1|2|5|21|27|31|-1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+4|+17|7|1|2|5|22|28|32|-2|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+4|+18|7|1|2|5|23|29|33|-3|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD


+4|+14|1-3|1|-|5|19|20|24|6|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+6|+15|1-3|1|-|7|22|23|27|3|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+7|+16|1-3|1|-|8|24|25|29|1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+7|+17|1-3|1|-|8|25|26|30|0|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+8|+17|1-3|1|-|9|26|27|31|-1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+8|+18|1-3|1|-|9|27|28|32|-2|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+9|+18|1-3|1|-|10|28|28|32|-2|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+9|+19|1-3|1|-|10|29|30|34|-4|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+9|+20|1-3|1|-|10|30|31|35|-5|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD

+2|+16|1-3|1|2|3|19|20|24|6|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+2|+17|1-3|1|2|3|20|22|26|4|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+3|+19|1-3|1|2|4|23|23|27|3|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+20|1-3|1|2|4|24|25|29|1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+21|1-3|1|2|4|25|26|30|0|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+22|1-3|1|2|4|26|27|31|-1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+23|1-3|1|2|4|27|28|32|-2|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD

Looked into all ledge f-air AI timings and stages to see if I could find anything promising. These 2 sets of timings seem like they'd have the best chances of being usable:

BF/DL/FoD

Drop Frames|Jump Frames|AI Frame|Drop|FF|Jump|F-Air|Land|Action|GALINT|Stages
+6|+7|7|1|-|7|14|20|24|6|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+7|+8|7|1|-|8|16|22|26|4|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+8|+8|7|1|-|9|17|23|27|3|BF/DL/FoD/--/--/--

YS

Drop Frames|Jump Frames|AI Frame|Drop|FF|Jump|F-Air|Land|Action|GALINT|Stages
+3|+6|7|1|-|4|10|16|20|10|--/--/---/YS/--/--
+4|+6|7|1|-|5|11|17|21|9|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD

Ledgedash: Up to 3 GALINT
FF NIL: BF/DL/FoD/PS/FD - Up to 0 GALINT (actionable on frame you become vulnerable); YS - Up to 3

If you want to try practicing it I'd highly recommend using 20XX's frame counting feature to track the number of frames you were in fall, DJ, and f-air while doing it to know where you need to adjust your timing (I'd never used it before and found this video helpful). They are 1 less in the 20XX counters, so if it displays 5/6/6 you did the AI that's 6 frames of fall, 7 frames of jump, and landed using frame 7 of f-air.


Taking a closer look at Kaeldiar's vid it looks like he was doing these FF + fr1-3 landing ones btw:

Drop Frames|Jump Frames|AI Frame|Drop|FF|Jump|F-Air|Land|Action|GALINT|Stages
+3|+19|1-3|1|2|4|23|23|27|3|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+20|1-3|1|2|4|24|25|29|1|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD
+3|+21|1-3|1|2|4|25|26|30|0|BF/DL/FoD/YS/PS/FD

 

[Plunder]

That's the Magus I know and love. Very impressive work, thanks for taking the time.

[I believe I already addressed it because when I downloaded and frame counted Kael's vid I noticed it as well] Yes, they weren't ideal but it was another example to show there was promise in doing variations of it (even different timings) back to back. The same happens to even top players when they ledge dash/stall, most of the time it's not optimal and sometimes they barely have any I-frames or none (or they SD, which actually happens still in GF and such to top 10 smashers).

The best I could do back when I first tried to figure this out for a week was 4 out of 5 back to back -
Recorded off-screen using a 120 FPS camera on BF and noticed I got GALINT 6, 4, 9, [L cancelled a fair had 1 I-frame left], Up-B stall and then was able to get 9 I-Frames on the last one.

I think this can be a rather powerful tool for Zelda's arsenal because the mix up is unreactable and very ambiguous. You can decide to hit them with a Weak Fair, L- cancel, combo possibly into Strong Kick or just L canceled Strong Fair if spaced right (which can be positive on shield)...or you can Fair AI into a lot of stuff....or you can ledge dash, Hax Dash, Ledge stall, etc.

 

[Masondeanm]

Why are there so many stream monsters on this site who talk out their bum?

I actually did spend about an hour in frame advance exploring these bud, and just like Magus's preliminary exploration, I found no tolerance. Sorry I couldn't be better than him.