why does competitive smash get so much hate outside of the community?

[menotyou135]

Same with any game that has an esport scene outside of MOBA and RTS (which blend casual and competitive play by design). There is a separation between how competitive play and casual play on a fundamental level. Because of this, casual players have a lack of understanding of it, and like all things that aren't well understood, it is hated by them. Furthermore, casual players have no interest in playing competitively, and there are many competitive people who are utter d-bags or make the game unfun for them. Even though these d-bags make up maybe 5% of the competitive smash community (it's likely closer to 1% but I was being liberal), they make the most lasting impact. The combined result is that many view the competitive crowd negatively. It's part ignorance, part bad experience with a vocal minority, and part a lack of interest. Furthermore, if one person hates the competitive mindset, then they will share their opinion with their friends, and the ignorance spreads.

That being said, the number of casual people who actually hate smash is maybe 5% (it's likely closer to 1% but I was being liberal).

cwutididthar

 

[FoxBlaze71]

the corner creates very interesting play.

It really does. When I still played KOF and Saiki was one of my mains, I loved nothing more than having a cornered opponent try to jump, only to lose half their health at minimal meter expense to myself.

saiki2godlike

 

[Giygacoal]

Essentially, it's infinitely less complex than some of the best fighting games. The disparity between high-level Smash and, as examples, high-level Third Strike or KoFXIII, is just incredible.

Care to elaborate? Infinitely? You can start by explaining your math.

Don't compare Third Strike to Melee. Pls. It's just a complete no-no.

Thinking Marvel is beyond that removed the last bit of validity from your post.

I don't think you understand how logical discussion works. A post isn't rendered entirely invalid by only one of its statements (well, maybe if it's only one sentence it's possible).

Also "It's just a complete no-no" is not at all a productive statement.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Let the flaming and circle-jerking commence like it always does after the initial question is actually answered.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

@ Giygacoal : Math? This isn't Starcraft. ******** over APM isn't exactly what constitutes my statement. It's the massive skill gap between top and bottom level players that isn't nearly as large in Smash because the game is a lot simpler, from basic movement upwards to the most complicated mechanics.

As for the second part, there really is no comparison between 3S and Smash. OS, parrying, and the crazy mixup game just added an incredible amount of depth and took mindgaming to a new level, where Melee will forever be playing soccer with your opponent and trying to kick them into the blast zones.

But as MechWarrior said, preferences between the two can be complained about forever, but in response to the TC's actual question, which has been severely neglected up to this point: there are a lot of reasons why the FGC hates Smash. The top ones from what I've seen tends to be preemptive banning (lol at putting Brawl MK on par with the likes of ST Akuma), item bans (which I personally disagree with, as items are random as hell and even terrible players become nearly invincible with a FS), and issues at events where Smash players tend to hog the majority of setups and, in general, make a nuisance of themselves. Before I get another pissed-off Nintendrone screaming about how dash-dancing is an advanced spacing tool and that I'm an elitist asshole, these are just issues the FGC tends to dislike Smash for, NOT my personal opinion.

 

[Paradoxium]

All the same mindgame **** is in smash too, along with all the mix ups. You are probably just too bad at the game to notice.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Don't think so. I use Ike's riskier moves all the time to manipulate people. It's just that there aren't as nearly as many options from any state to mindgame people in Smash. Especially in regards hard knockdown, SF3 really shines with all the options available to each player. The Five Principles of Third Strike video by Cross Counter TV around 3SO's release did a good job explaining those options in a simple enough fashion, if you want to chekc that out. Smash, like I said earlier, is more of a flowchart in landing random hits and then tossing the opponent through the air or along the ground.

Also, you haven't gotten back to me on that statement about beating me over Wifi, when I'm not aware of that ever happening. Are you just hiding with alts elsewhere, or blatantly lying? Whichever one it is, it doesn't put you in a good position to go around calling people bad.

 

[Daftatt]

ITT: Insecurity, Misinformation, and Rudeness drowning out the simple and rational explanation/responses to the original topic.

Unlike most fighting games, particularly ones played competitively today, smash is something that nearly EVERYONE FREAKING EVER has played, and they all have their own ideas of what it meant to be good at the game, which characters were better, and rules to balance/improve matches and whatever.

When people encounter the competitive smash scene with it's rigorous tier list, insane execution barriers, and altogether conservative take on what many cherish as a childhood staple some people are bound to let their own insecurities get the best of them and reject the competitive scene. However I will say from my own experience most casual players love competitive smash (those that didn't assume that just because they could beat all their friends they were godly at the game), it's the same amazement of watching speedrunners tear it up in your favorite classic video game. So, just to make sure everyone understands the implications of that last sentence, DO NOT MAKE FUN OF, POINT FINGERS AT, OR REJECT CASUAL SMASH PLAYER'S EXPERIENCES AND OPINIONS ON THE TOPIC OF WHAT KIND OF GAME SMASH BROS IS. SMASH BROS, LIKE MANY GAMES CAN BE PLAYED MANY WAYS, SO BE RESPECTFUL.

As for the rest of the fighting game game community if they reject smash for it's lineage and design as a "party" game then it's very simply a case of a lack of knowleged about competitive smash bros, and/or their own insecurity of the many gameplay properties and mechanics that smash has that other fighting games do not (or vice versa) such as more free and fluid movement, variety in character design, and a more dynamic comboing system.

Not to mention it doesn't use life meters, a lot of competitive fighting game players have a hard time seeing past that. Smash is just so different on the outside that for a lot of people it's hard to see what makes it so similar to other competitive fighting games.

EDIT: This thread should have ended with the post by @RIDLEY is too SMALL , the fact that it did not is regrettable.

@ FoxBlaze71 your conduct in this thread has been very poor and has contributed little or nothing to the discussion, only serving to rile up others into heated and nasty debates with you. I suggest you stop responding to this thread.

 

[Paradoxium]

Don't think so. I use Ike's riskier moves all the time to manipulate people. It's just that there aren't as nearly as many options from any state to mindgame people in Smash. Especially in regards hard knockdown, SF3 really shines with all the options available to each player. The Five Principles of Third Strike video by Cross Counter TV around 3SO's release did a good job explaining those options in a simple enough fashion, if you want to chekc that out. Smash, like I said earlier, is more of a flowchart in landing random hits and then tossing the opponent through the air or along the ground.

Also, you haven't gotten back to me on that statement about beating me over Wifi, when I'm not aware of that ever happening. Are you just hiding with alts elsewhere, or blatantly lying? Whichever one it is, it doesn't put you in a good position to go around calling people bad.

Ike has a lot of techskill + Mind games. Out of quick draw alone he has, standard qd attack, wave dash, rar, jc grab, jc upsmash, jc turn around upsmash, wall jump, or just a standard jump. That is a lot of mix up potential off of that one move. You can also Mix it in with your dash dances and wave dashes giving him a very unpredictable neutral game with a lot of options.

I've played quite a few people over wifi and I thought I had played you, maybe not.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Ike has a lot of techskill + Mind games. Out of quick draw alone he has, standard qd attack, wave dash, rar, jc grab, jc upsmash, jc turn around upsmash, wall jump, or just a standard jump. That is a lot of mix up potential off of that one move. You can also Mix it in with your dash dances and wave dashes giving him a very unpredictable neutral game with a lot of options.

I've played quite a few people over wifi and I thought I had played you, maybe not.

I main Ike, so I'm well aware of those options, but they're not exclusive, not to mention some of them being useful in very few scenarios. Some of my other favorites are throwing out slower moves like throwing random U-smashes mid-screen and beating the **** out of people who rush in to punish because they don't realize how godlike his IASA window is from it (20F? in Brawl, not sure about PM, but it's still good), and empty jumps because people a lot of people will cower in shield anticipating Nairs or Fairs when Ike's airborne, only to get immediately grab punished.

As for the Wifi thing, it's fine, but I wouldn't be quite as definitive as you were if you aren't even sure you played a person.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

@ FoxBlaze71 seems like a ****ing child who has no idea what top level Smash entails. The reason it seems so "random" is because the skill ceiling is so ****ing high, options are always so diverse, that not even top level players have come close to reaching it.

Hit confirming also exists in Smash, by the way, as well as block strings (ie safe shield pressure), wakeup game from knockdown, and spacing. I'm laughing my ass off, by the way, about how dashdancing is "mindless mashing" while footsies in SF is highly technical, so much more than movement along a single axis. I actually agree that footsies in SF is highly technical, but to claim it isn't in Smash is ridiculous.

And if the skill gap is so tiny between low level and high level players, please explain the five gods of Melee. Are they just the luckiest players alive who somehow keep out-randoming all the other filthy casuals they go up against?

Last of all, ****ing lol at your unsupported "SF+KoF so gud, even blazblue is ****e" comments. You just have a boner for games where options are restricted enough for human players to actually be able to reach optimal levels of play. That's why you think of Marvel, Arksys games, Smash Bros. etc. as so "random" - because the options are so diverse it's basically impossible for a human player to realistically reach near-perfect levels of play. If that's what you're in to, **** off and play Chess, or at least stick to Super Turbo.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

@ FoxBlaze71 seems like a ****ing child who has no idea what top level Smash entails. The reason it seems so "random" is because the skill ceiling is so ****ing high, options are always so diverse, that not even top level players have come close to reaching it.

Hit confirming also exists in Smash, by the way, as well as block strings (ie safe shield pressure), wakeup game from knockdown, and spacing. I'm laughing my *** off, by the way, about how dashdancing is "mindless mashing" while footsies in SF is highly technical, so much more than movement along a single axis. I actually agree that footsies in SF is highly technical, but to claim it isn't in Smash is ridiculous.

And if the skill gap is so tiny between low level and high level players, please explain the five gods of Melee. Are they just the luckiest players alive who somehow keep out-randoming all the other filthy casuals they go up against?

Last of all, ****ing lol at your unsupported "SF+KoF so gud, even blazblue is ****e" comments. You just have a boner for games where options are restricted enough for human players to actually be able to reach optimal levels of play. That's why you think of Marvel, Arksys games, Smash Bros. etc. as so "random" - because the options are so diverse it's basically impossible for a human player to realistically reach near-perfect levels of play. If that's what you're in to, **** off and play Chess, or at least stick to Super Turbo.

Yeah, I'm clearly a child when you the expletives you angrily spout make you sound like 12 year old on the playground. NO U, F*****!

I can concede that some of those things exist in Smash, but at a much dumber level. Tossing out jab 1 and 2 on someone's shield IS NOT comparable to successfully doing a blockstring with multiple 1-2F gaps. Optimally spacing on an opponent so they don't get a game-ending, 70 hit full meter combo IS NOT comparable to dashing around in place and tossing out drills or Nairs or whatever your character's main tool in that regard is.

As for your comment on trash fighters, it's not because of the limits players can achieve, it's because they're badly balanced, mashy games that are completely directionless. It's not because I'm a flowchart scrub like you would paint me to be, it's because brainlessly throwing stuff out shouldn't work.

And before you start feeling your PMS creeping up on you again and make another dumb rage post, you should realize that I'm actually the only one so far who's tried to answer the OP's goddamn question instead of soiling my Mario jammies because someone disagrees with me about a video game series. In the mean time, I will go give that ST some loving.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Just stop. The question has already been answered by several people, none of whom were you I might add.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ Giygacoal : Math? This isn't Starcraft. *****ing over APM isn't exactly what constitutes my statement. It's the massive skill gap between top and bottom level players that isn't nearly as large in Smash because the game is a lot simpler, from basic movement upwards to the most complicated mechanics.

As for the second part, there really is no comparison between 3S and Smash. OS, parrying, and the crazy mixup game just added an incredible amount of depth and took mindgaming to a new level, where Melee will forever be playing soccer with your opponent and trying to kick them into the blast zones.

But as MechWarrior said, preferences between the two can be complained about forever, but in response to the TC's actual question, which has been severely neglected up to this point: there are a lot of reasons why the FGC hates Smash. The top ones from what I've seen tends to be preemptive banning (lol at putting Brawl MK on par with the likes of ST Akuma), item bans (which I personally disagree with, as items are random as hell and even terrible players become nearly invincible with a FS), and issues at events where Smash players tend to hog the majority of setups and, in general, make a nuisance of themselves. Before I get another pissed-off Nintendrone screaming about how dash-dancing is an advanced spacing tool and that I'm an elitist *******, these are just issues the FGC tends to dislike Smash for, NOT my personal opinion.

I never said anything about APM. You said infinitely, and it's pretty clear you don't understand the concept of infinite.

There are plenty of comparisons between Third Strike and Smash. They are fighting games and they both have combos, for example.

Yeah, I'm clearly a child when you the expletives you angrily spout make you sound like 12 year old on the playground. NO U, F*****!

I can concede that some of those things exist in Smash, but at a much dumber level. Tossing out jab 1 and 2 on someone's shield IS NOT comparable to successfully doing a blockstring with multiple 1-2F gaps. Optimally spacing on an opponent so they don't get a game-ending, 70 hit full meter combo IS NOT comparable to dashing around in place and tossing out drills or Nairs or whatever your character's main tool in that regard is.

As for your comment on trash fighters, it's not because of the limits players can achieve, it's because they're badly balanced, mashy games that are completely directionless. It's not because I'm a flowchart scrub like you would paint me to be, it's because brainlessly throwing stuff out shouldn't work.

And before you start feeling your PMS creeping up on you again and make another dumb rage post, you should realize that I'm actually the only one so far who's tried to answer the OP's goddamn question instead of soiling my Mario jammies because someone disagrees with me about a video game series. In the mean time, I will go give that ST some loving.

Look up the definition of "compare" please.

Also you underestimate the implications of Smash Bros. gameplay. It's a lot deeper than it looks, but often in ways that other fighters don't explore. If Smash were actually easy to play at a high level, why hasn't a traditional fighter player entered the scene just to earn a lot of money? Why aren't you the top player?

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ FoxBlaze71

"DDing is mindess mashing"

oh wait.

Also, think about this. In Smash, there are TONS of mid level players, but only about 100-200 high level players of any notable talent/skill. Another thing to note is that in melee, the number one problem for spacie mains is bad laser spacing, poor movement, and bumrushing/committing to too many moves when not necessary. I'd argue that the neutral game is even more important in Smash than it is in traditional fighters because in the end, a player can escape any combo attempt with good DI, unless its a waveshine from Fox on a character with very high traction, like Peach, or a chaingrab. Virtually every combo in Smash is escapable with good DI/SDI. Falco's shine dairs? DI/SDI down and away .Ken Combo is only guaranteed if your DI is vertical. Up throw up air is escapable by DI'ing the up throw behind Fox and SDIing the up air. Jab reset combos are escapable by teching and not bouncing on the ground. Defense is very strong in Smash.

Traditional fighters have pre set combos and some moves which cover all escape options.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

I never said anything about APM. You said infinitely, and it's pretty clear you don't understand the concept of infinite.

There are plenty of comparisons between Third Strike and Smash. They are fighting games and they both have combos, for example.



Look up the definition of "compare" please.

Also you underestimate the implications of Smash Bros. gameplay. It's a lot deeper than it looks, but often in ways that other fighters don't explore. If Smash were actually easy to play at a high level, why hasn't a traditional fighter player entered the scene just to earn a lot of money? Why aren't you the top player?

Can you explain the ways that supposedly create depth?

Maybe I wasn't using the word "compare" to its full literal meaning, but that doesn't encompass the points I'm making. As for the FGC comment, I don't think it's quite the way you see it. At the average Smash event, how much would the first prize winner take home? One or two thousand dollars? Top SF players can make six figures in tourney winnings/team salary/etc. annually, so I don't see why they'd invest the time in a party game. I personally don't attend any events because I live well over seven hours from the closest scenes and can't see traveling that much for Smash.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

@ FoxBlaze71 seems like a ****ing child who has no idea what top level Smash entails.

Way to enforce these stereotypes.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Yeah, I'm clearly a child when you the expletives you angrily spout make you sound like 12 year old on the playground. NO U, F*****!

I can concede that some of those things exist in Smash, but at a much dumber level. Tossing out jab 1 and 2 on someone's shield IS NOT comparable to successfully doing a blockstring with multiple 1-2F gaps. Optimally spacing on an opponent so they don't get a game-ending, 70 hit full meter combo IS NOT comparable to dashing around in place and tossing out drills or Nairs or whatever your character's main tool in that regard is.

As for your comment on trash fighters, it's not because of the limits players can achieve, it's because they're badly balanced, mashy games that are completely directionless. It's not because I'm a flowchart scrub like you would paint me to be, it's because brainlessly throwing stuff out shouldn't work.

And before you start feeling your PMS creeping up on you again and make another dumb rage post, you should realize that I'm actually the only one so far who's tried to answer the OP's goddamn question instead of soiling my Mario jammies because someone disagrees with me about a video game series. In the mean time, I will go give that ST some loving.

Hey man the website autocensors my ****words so you don't even have to get your jimmies rustled about it. "Mario jammies" lol.

Anyways, moneymatch me noob. $100.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I won a game on a 2d fighter by LITERALLY chewing on the controller.

I held the dpad with my thumb to move and just bit on the attack buttons when i needed to punch.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

The OP's query was answered. Can you lot take it to personal messages?

On that note, @Hylian

 

[FoxBlaze71]

Hey man the website autocensors my ****words so you don't even have to get your jimmies rustled about it. "Mario jammies" lol.

Anyways, moneymatch me noob. $100.

Because that's totally relevant to how various fighters and Smash are played at a high level, right?

 

[standardtoaster]

I think the question has been answered sufficiently. If you want to continue this argument take it to PMs.