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Why do you think Project M gets a bad rap?

jackal27

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Lately as I've been browsing various places on the internet (a lot of Youtube comments admittedly) I've been seeing a ton shade thrown in Project M's direction. Why do you think this is? I never got into Project M until a few months ago and Brawl used to be my favorite Smash game (no more), but I still never had any problem with Project M. I thought it was a neat idea for people who were into that sort of thing. Now that I've been playing it, it's probably my favorite Smash game, even topping Smash 4. It combines the best of Melee and Brawl along with a level customization that makes creating your build a game in and of itself. Not to mention the fact that it's completely free and actively being developed.

I've seen folks making simple pokes about jank (whatever that means) to folks claiming that it actively makes the Smash community a worse place just by existing. Even within the PM community I see splits about version differences and things. To me, none of this makes sense so I'm just curious.

Why do you think Project M gets a bum rap?
 

CELTiiC

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One reason why you could see PM getting a bad rep is the Smash community in general. For playing under the same franchise, Super Smash Bros, this community is very divided among their respective games. This can lead to the distaste from Melee, Brawl and Smash 4 players to be vocalized, thus you see those people bashing PM. Another reason would be because it's a mod, and not an official title. With that comes your point about updates. 3.02 was more pointed towards making everyone on the same level as Fox, which made everyone very strong and on the terms of being OP in their own way. After that release they decided to change direction and tone the game down, which is where 3.5/3.6 is currently headed. The direction they are taking is to make things more balanced with reasonable counter play, which is different then how 3.0 was played out. This causes people who enjoyed 3.0, but don't like the direction of 3.5/3.6 to voice their distaste. There are a factor of reasons, not everyone enjoys the same things. I personally love PM, but I can see some of the points other players make who don't like the game as much as I do.

Also, "jank" is a rather vague and somewhat toxic term, which generally is used by the community to mean something is broken, overpowered or stupid.
 
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Boondocker

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745
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Charlotte, NC
It doesnt. Pm is amazing. Anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

(That attitude is why it gets a bad rap, but i agree with it lol)
 

Jamble

Smash Apprentice
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Oct 5, 2015
Messages
135
I really think it's just a vocal minority that talks smack on PM. "Jank" basically means "I don't know my match-ups, but I'm going to be a poor sport about it" from my own limited experience. Characters feel like they have a lot more depth to them in PM to me so far, so it takes a bit more time to thoroughly learn your matchups. If some people prefer sm4sh, that's fine and all, I don't hate on sm4sh. But I feel like people are too quick to hate on whatever their non-preferred version of smash is.
 

RomeDogg

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Because this far in PMs development for some odd reason Pichu and Young Link still haven't made their triumphant return.
 

Spralwers

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To add onto everything else said here, the internet allows a "vocal" minority to be heard. And that vocal minority is usually the haters. Same deal here.
 

Sünta

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Some people that hate melee just to hate melee are hating on it because it "Meleefied" Brawl. I've seen that a lot and it's sad.
 

PurplishBacon

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Then their are the people that latch on to other people and their ideas because those people are popular. In doing that the refuse to have their own thoughts about things and just mooch off of others.
 

RomeDogg

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That's a bunch of hog-swallow, people like Melee because it and Smash64 are clearly the better official smash titles.
 

VeronEF

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It's just human nature. I don't mean to hate on it, but you can't deny that Sm4sh much more forgiving than PM, especially for a new player. Easier recoveries, infinite air dodges...it's a lot harder to be good at PM than it is to be good at Sm4sh or Brawl. Something I've found about life generally, but that I think is applicable here too, is that anger is often the result of personal inadequacy. People try PM, get discouraged by how much harder it is, and then decide to hate on the game rather than acknowledge their own lack of skill.
 

Kurri ★

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That's a bunch of hog-swallow, people like Melee because it and Smash64 are clearly the better official smash titles.
Clearly? As in it's irrefutable? I'll need some citations on that.

It's just human nature. I don't mean to hate on it, but you can't deny that Sm4sh much more forgiving than PM, especially for a new player. Easier recoveries, infinite air dodges...it's a lot harder to be good at PM than it is to be good at Sm4sh or Brawl. Something I've found about life generally, but that I think is applicable here too, is that anger is often the result of personal inadequacy. People try PM, get discouraged by how much harder it is, and then decide to hate on the game rather than acknowledge their own lack of skill.
That may explain the bad rep it has amongst Smash 4/Brawl players, but what about Melee players? In my experience, Melee players generally dismiss PM because of the "jank" or that it's "too easy." I've even heard things about how "patches are bad" and that "they ruin the meta."

I don't think it's really possible to pinpoint the exact reason it gets a bad rep aside from a load of bull**** happening and ignorance. I've seen things like how "PM was made to spite Sakurai" to "PM is Melee for babies" and a whole slew of other things. It's a shame tbh.
 

LIVERPOOP

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don't read youtube arguments between teenage american boys and you wont have the false idea that "PM has a bad rap". a few teens online paying something out because they're losers doesn't make it true.
 

Kurri ★

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don't read youtube arguments between teenage american boys and you wont have the false idea that "PM has a bad rap". a few teens online paying something out because they're losers doesn't make it true.
But the bad rep also happens offline
 

Ed94

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I'd say they need to find a balance between 3.02 and 3.6. Yes keep the balancing but try to ramp it up to fox's level of speed and options for every character. If a character has no other viable options we get the Hungrybox case at EVO against Mango.

Right now I don't know if its cause I'm just to casual of a player to go beyond this(I've just started to tech somewhat consistently in both games), but project m feels more stiff than melee. I know I don't have input assist on so its not a frame buffer problem but just something about how movement between inputs feel. PM feels like a rugged, rigid, quick. Melee feels like a smooth quick, that is more flexible. (Personal opinion ofc) If you wanna attract the hard core fans don't nerf what makes a character fun make it harder and less viable to do whats fun all time, or make something else fun to do as well.

There is also the problem with the Nintendo not liking PM for obvious reasons, and just the great difference there is between melee, pm, and smash 4. PM and Melee do have similar techs but not everything is quite the same(I find this a good thing you know people think otherwise). As for smash4 their tech is quite different and since pm is from an older game it feels like they are going backwards in deciding to play it(casuals). So in that sense the newcomers from the latest smash are not attracted to it.

I feel if we could just get dolphin to be much more accessible and as close to lag free as a crt console setup without really trying then we'll really be getting people attention. Right now playing on wii and crt is just not most players who are on the fence on playing smash competitively so smash 4 becomes the obvious option. I think for pm and the melee scene to keep on thriving they need to do what steam and hardware companies did for pc. Where steam made software extremely easy to handle and cheap to get, with hardware companies making hardware that is actually extremely affordable and get if you actually spent an hour doing some research instead of just buying after running into a store. So what do you do for this, make it stupid easy to at least install dolphin on pc and get them playing the game even if its not completely authentic to gameplay on a more traditional setup. If they like the game and scene enough they will transition to more hardcore setups.

This is pretty much where I am in a way. I started out differently since I'm older however, I played melee on gc causally but was to young to ever even know about a competitive scene or have anyone in it. Moves on to play other games, gets wii plays brawl its ok does a lot of custom stages, beats it leaves it alone. Then I find Project M first (around its early versions) at a friends house. Starts playing melee as a friendly competitive thing don't go crazy with it since I like to many different games to get stuck to playing just one. I eventually learn basic techs in melee and then apply them in pm. Why? Because for some reason like I said techs in melee feel more fluid I dunno why. BUT, PMs basic move set is more straight on so its easier to get precise timings down. Now I'm getting the point that pretty soon I'll be visiting a weekly tourney at FIU down here in Florida, then to the next CEO. I just need to make techs second nature before I feel comfortable with that. I probably won't be getting a crt at any time since I'll just most likely getting a high refresh rate monitor instead.

Now for those who did not have melee, or barely touched a wii and have a freight for doing anything not mediocre with computers what are they gonna do? Well if they have no friends with pm to show them how its done(like I've done for plenty of my friends), they'll just buy a wii u and get into that community. They need to see how easy it is to setup or be able to aquire a predone setup for themselves at an easy way.

Maybe some preconfigured 2gb sd cards? Maybe sell them online and at tourneys that host PM with instructions given? A wii with brawl combo coupon to buy online? Automatic installer to sd card plugged into pc that you can download form PM website. This kind of ease of use works wonders.

We have already everything a causal smasher wants who could get really into the scene. We have graphical improvment mods make the game more appealing, ways of playing PM without a wii. Local venues are hosting it and there are plenty of content to see of competitive matches. What I think is missing is the middle ground and find polish to accessibility, and cleaning up the last bits of iffy gameplay that keep it form being easily a major competitive smash game that does not fall short in attendance at tournaments.

TL;DR:
  • Make PM tech more fluid in inputting so it feels as satisfying as Melee.
  • Make characters balanced as they are in 3.6 without losing sight of what makes each character fun to play.
  • Allow for the use of maybe some tech similar to Smash4 to be used in pm so that newcomers from the game are more attracted to PM maybe.
  • Make getting PM stupid easy. Have preconfigured 2gb sdcards ready to be sold, have recommended equipment shown on PM promoting sites (CRTs,HFR Gaming displays, etc), dolphin with project m ready(just need brawl rips), Stations at tourneys that will mod your wii on site so that its easy to play pm (same can be done with laptops or desktops if people are willing to bring.) Project M official downloads having installers that automatically put PM into an SD card, or setup dolphin for you. Make mods for pm have installers straight to sd card, dolphin etc, have them on CDs at the venue.
 
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Kurri ★

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I'd say they need to find a balance between 3.02 and 3.6. Yes keep the balancing but try to ramp it up to fox's level of speed and options for every character. If a character has no other viable options we get the Hungrybox case at EVO against Mango.

Right now I don't know if its cause I'm just to casual of a player to go beyond this(I've just started to tech somewhat consistently in both games), but project m feels more stiff than melee. I know I don't have input assist on so its not a frame buffer problem but just something about how movement between inputs feel. PM feels like a rugged, rigid, quick. Melee feels like a smooth quick, that is more flexible. (Personal opinion ofc) If you wanna attract the hard core fans don't nerf what makes a character fun make it harder and less viable to do whats fun all time, or make something else fun to do as well.

There is also the problem with the Nintendo not liking PM for obvious reasons, and just the great difference there is between melee, pm, and smash 4. PM and Melee do have similar techs but not everything is quite the same(I find this a good thing you know people think otherwise). As for smash4 their tech is quite different and since pm is from an older game it feels like they are going backwards in deciding to play it(casuals). So in that sense the newcomers from the latest smash are not attracted to it.

I feel if we could just get dolphin to be much more accessible and as close to lag free as a crt console setup without really trying then we'll really be getting people attention. Right now playing on wii and crt is just not most players who are on the fence on playing smash competitively so smash 4 becomes the obvious option. I think for pm and the melee scene to keep on thriving they need to do what steam and hardware companies did for pc. Where steam made software extremely easy to handle and cheap to get, with hardware companies making hardware that is actually extremely affordable and get if you actually spent an hour doing some research instead of just buying after running into a store. So what do you do for this, make it stupid easy to at least install dolphin on pc and get them playing the game even if its not completely authentic to gameplay on a more traditional setup. If they like the game and scene enough they will transition to more hardcore setups.

This is pretty much where I am in a way. I started out differently since I'm older however, I played melee on gc causally but was to young to ever even know about a competitive scene or have anyone in it. Moves on to play other games, gets wii plays brawl its ok does a lot of custom stages, beats it leaves it alone. Then I find Project M first (around its early versions) at a friends house. Starts playing melee as a friendly competitive thing don't go crazy with it since I like to many different games to get stuck to playing just one. I eventually learn basic techs in melee and then apply them in pm. Why? Because for some reason like I said techs in melee feel more fluid I dunno why. BUT, PMs basic move set is more straight on so its easier to get precise timings down. Now I'm getting the point that pretty soon I'll be visiting a weekly tourney at FIU down here in Florida, then to the next CEO. I just need to make techs second nature before I feel comfortable with that. I probably won't be getting a crt at any time since I'll just most likely getting a high refresh rate monitor instead.

Now for those who did not have melee, or barely touched a wii and have a freight for doing anything not mediocre with computers what are they gonna do? Well if they have no friends with pm to show them how its done(like I've done for plenty of my friends), they'll just buy a wii u and get into that community. They need to see how easy it is to setup or be able to aquire a predone setup for themselves at an easy way.

Maybe some preconfigured 2gb sd cards? Maybe sell them online and at tourneys that host PM with instructions given? A wii with brawl combo coupon to buy online? Automatic installer to sd card plugged into pc that you can download form PM website. This kind of ease of use works wonders.

We have already everything a causal smasher wants who could get really into the scene. We have graphical improvment mods make the game more appealing, ways of playing PM without a wii. Local venues are hosting it and there are plenty of content to see of competitive matches. What I think is missing is the middle ground and find polish to accessibility, and cleaning up the last bits of iffy gameplay that keep it form being easily a major competitive smash game that does not fall short in attendance at tournaments.

TL;DR:
  • Make PM tech more fluid in inputting so it feels as satisfying as Melee.
  • Make characters balanced as they are in 3.6 without losing sight of what makes each character fun to play.
  • Allow for the use of maybe some tech similar to Smash4 to be used in pm so that newcomers from the game are more attracted to PM maybe.
  • Make getting PM stupid easy. Have preconfigured 2gb sdcards ready to be sold, have recommended equipment shown on PM promoting sites (CRTs,HFR Gaming displays, etc), dolphin with project m ready(just need brawl rips), Stations at tourneys that will mod your wii on site so that its easy to play pm (same can be done with laptops or desktops if people are willing to bring.) Project M official downloads having installers that automatically put PM into an SD card, or setup dolphin for you. Make mods for pm have installers straight to sd card, dolphin etc, have them on CDs at the venue.
This post is silly.

Some things make sense, like trying to make PM more fluid, if possible. But PM is already stupid easy to get going, all you have to do is just nab a 2gb SD card, and drop the necessary files into it, boom you're done. Making it any easier would be too much effort for too little gain, and if someone really needs it to be easier, they're probably not actually interested in PM or technologically inept.

And what tech does Smash 4 have that'd make any context in PM? Ledge Trumping would require a complete rework of ledge mechanics, and anything else is already in PM.
 
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Ed94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
164
Your right, it is easy as hell to get going, but people are more technologically inept(afraid of hassle) than you realize.

I am dumb founded at how much even my friends have been against playing pm for the sole reason that its a mod so that must mean its hard to get working. They are interested in playing it, but don't want to bother even with the drag and drop and test if it works. They come by and love playing PM but as soon I tried to tell them how to get it for themselves they're interest immediately changes to discomfort at the thought of it. I have to litterally be like a sales person to them and show them how easy the process is step by step before they even get close to the feeling of ok I'll try that, and for some...forget it just do it for them or they will never bother. Once they got PM one way or other they did not stop and got more interested. Not everyone had it easy getting PM to work in dolphin and the wii. Some go through 3 hours troubleshooting for various reasons. All I'm saying is have a setup at the venues to do it for them even if that sounds stupid.

There is always a lot of effort that is put in for ease of use in the beginning of any professional software sold. It may not show any gains at the beginning but after a few weeks to months, significant gains in the PM will be seen. If a melee player or smash 4 player comes to a tourney for that game but decides to see whats going on in the PM area, there should be a way at least at the major locations for to pick up PM physically right then and there, or even have their wii get installed with homebrew or w/e they like to have to play PM.

For Dolphin there is a also a bit more work involved for playing something like netplay. It be much easier to get people to play online via netplay if we could get an installer that just asks for the Brawl ISO, and does the rest inclduing build the PM netplay iso, install prerequisites, install and configure dolphin and just have the user launch it. Yes believe it or not people are intimidated by what actually looks like a really easy step by step process on anthers ladder. I have met these people they exist and they make a decent portion of the population you are trying to grab.

That is what the regular smash games have over PM, you pop the disc in and play. Its so easy my 89 year old grandma figured it out when I let her play my ps2.

People who get into smash first don't are about advanced tech, they care about just how much fun and intuitive it feels and how much fun the platform is to play on first. The interest in the tech and competitive scene comes after. If you can't get people who could initially be interested in the first part your missing out on a large percentage of the smash community that could come over. Right now people who play PM only come over with already a great interest in how advanced in the mechanics, not for the other reason. People are diehards about only playing on the Wii and crt even at certain places for frendlies. Thats a turn off for the people I'm trying make you realize that exist.
 
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JOE!

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This is a legit point, you would be surprised at the ineptitude of people when it comes to technology. I work with ER doctors who have PHDs and whatnot and cannot figure out if a printer is out of paper.
 

Kurri ★

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This is a legit point, you would be surprised at the ineptitude of people when it comes to technology. I work with ER doctors who have PHDs and whatnot and cannot figure out if a printer is out of paper.
Aight, so people are technologically inept, doesn't change the fact that it's probably not worth making it easier (i.e selling preloaded SD cards or having dedicated stations to mod a Wii), it's still too much effort for too little reward.
 

Ed94

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Well how about trying it our 1 month and see what happens. Then decide if its not worth continuing.
 

Kurri ★

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Well how about trying it our 1 month and see what happens. Then decide if its not worth continuing.
Cause that's not how it works, What you're asking for costs money, and that's something I'm sure PMDT doesn't have enough of. I'm also not sure if it's even legal to do.
 

Jamble

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Charging for copies of a mod to Brawl would definitely be illegal because of issues with Brawl being Nintendo's IP.
 
D

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Guest
Cause that's not how it works, What you're asking for costs money, and that's something I'm sure PMDT doesn't have enough of. I'm also not sure if it's even legal to do.
we're a grassroots community through and through. we buy CRT TVs on craigslist, drive or fly sometimes hundreds or thousands of miles to our events, hunt down 10 year old controllers on ebay, and spend at least 1-2 years getting to entry level tournament status. not everyone is built for the difficulty that goes with the game, or smash in general. sometimes i look at m2k and zero and dont know how they do it every weekend. and that's okay. but yes, we know what we're about, and we know how much work it is for the players- most of the dev team does prolific testing, debugging, lengthy discussions about game ethos and design, and travel to national events to take a scope of the metagame. our game is not an easy one, but admittedly SD cards are much more negotiable than everything else. it's on you to decide what you're okay with, we simply try our best to supply a game that people want to play.
 
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Kurri ★

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we're a grassroots community through and through. we buy CRT TVs on craigslist, drive or fly sometimes hundreds or thousands of miles to our events, hunt down 10 year old controllers on ebay, and spend at least 1-2 years getting to entry level tournament status. not everyone is built for the difficulty that goes with the game, or smash in general. sometimes i look at m2k and zero and dont know how they do it every weekend. and that's okay. but yes, we know what we're about, and we know how much work it is for the players- most of the dev team does prolific testing, debugging, lengthy discussions about game ethos and design, and travel to national events to take a scope of the metagame. our game is not an easy one, but admittedly SD cards are much more negotiable than everything else. it's on you to decide what you're okay with we simply try our best to supply a game that people want to play.
That's dedication. Well if you say it's negotiable, I'm cool with it.
 

jackal27

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we're a grassroots community through and through. we buy CRT TVs on craigslist, drive or fly sometimes hundreds or thousands of miles to our events, hunt down 10 year old controllers on ebay, and spend at least 1-2 years getting to entry level tournament status. not everyone is built for the difficulty that goes with the game, or smash in general. sometimes i look at m2k and zero and dont know how they do it every weekend. and that's okay. but yes, we know what we're about, and we know how much work it is for the players- most of the dev team does prolific testing, debugging, lengthy discussions about game ethos and design, and travel to national events to take a scope of the metagame. our game is not an easy one, but admittedly SD cards are much more negotiable than everything else. it's on you to decide what you're okay with, we simply try our best to supply a game that people want to play.
I've never even seen SD cards as an issue since I run the game homebrew (which means you're not limited by SD card size). Setting your Wii up for the homebrew channel is ridiculously easy too. I've done it for tons of folks. I mean honestly, anyone who has expressed interest to me about getting the game running has never had much of an issue jumping in from my experience. The game is super easy to set and play for a mod and sooooo many folks have old Wiis and copies of Brawl they don't play. I had a friend buy a PM set up on craigslist for less than $100. That's game, console, SD card, 2 Gamecube controllers. I don't think set up is really the issue, especially in a community of mostly somewhat technology savvy folks.

If I had to guess it's something between what folks have mentioned about it being harder to get into for Smash 4/Brawl players who are used to so much of the work being done for them, and it's too different for Melee players who have tried and true match ups things that they're used to.

Good discussion happening guys. Feel free to keep it up.
 
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Bleck

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sometimes i look at m2k and zero and dont know how they do it every weekend.
I could travel and go to tournaments and spend twelve hours a day playing video games too if I were lucky enough to be born into an affluent family

like this "grassroots" community stuff is bs; it's literally just spoiled rich kids not having to worry about anything other than playing video games, not some magnificent triumph of dedication
 

Reila

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You could blame Melee fanboys and fangirls for hating everything that isn't Melee. Eventually the fans of other Smash titles started hating on Melee and its players as well. So a mod that have as its purpose to make Brawl closer to Melee naturally would get flak, too. It's immature, but in the end it started with the Melee circlejerk that still is present in the community to this day.
 

Droß

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Aight, so people are technologically inept, doesn't change the fact that it's probably not worth making it easier (i.e selling preloaded SD cards or having dedicated stations to mod a Wii), it's still too much effort for too little reward.
I completely disagree with this. PM is already effectively set up, why not make a killing selling preloaded SD cards with a PM sticker on it (to cover the stupid SD card brand/make it feel like a more complete product) for 30 bucks? Then get a tech service going for the inevitable setup issues and kaboom! $$$

Or even add a piece of paper with the setup instructions :V
 
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D

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I could travel and go to tournaments and spend twelve hours a day playing video games too if I were lucky enough to be born into an affluent family

like this "grassroots" community stuff is bs; it's literally just spoiled rich kids not having to worry about anything other than playing video games, not some magnificent triumph of dedication
i have met maybe a handful of well to do smashers since i started. but i would say the vast majority are not. m2k for example definitely doesnt have a wealthy family, quite the opposite.
 

JOE!

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I completely disagree with this. PM is already effectively set up, why not make a killing selling preloaded SD cards with a PM sticker on it (to cover the stupid SD card brand/make it feel like a more complete product) for 30 bucks? Then get a tech service going for the inevitable setup issues and kaboom! $$$

Or even add a piece of paper with the setup instructions :V
Making money off the sale of PM is the one thing the Big N would be looking for to shut it down totally as that crosses the line into illegal territory from the "grey area" we reside in. If it were like, money equal to the cost of the SD card or whatever that'd be different maybe as it just covers the supplier's cost and not a "profit"?
 

jackal27

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Making money off the sale of PM is the one thing the Big N would be looking for to shut it down totally as that crosses the line into illegal territory from the "grey area" we reside in. If it were like, money equal to the cost of the SD card or whatever that'd be different maybe as it just covers the supplier's cost and not a "profit"?
Yeah this was my first thought as well. Nintendo has already got a beef with PM. Start selling it and they're going to have a much much bigger one.
 
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Because it's a mod, which people don't want to accept because of this idea that only "real" Smash games should be in tournaments.

Which is ironic, since games like Counter-Strike, Quake and DoTA were mods, and they were all lovingly accepted competetively. It's only really in the Smash community where mods are vehemently treated as "not real games"; probably because Melee's crowd don't want to be "replaced", while the Brawl/Sm4sh crowd see it as irrelevant and/or not legitimate. PM sits in the middle of the grey area; on one hand, it's still technically a mod of a console, not-open source game. On the other hand, it's also a derivative work of the original, so it's not technically piracy.

So it's just...this middle void between being illegal and being protected as a derivative work.
 
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