Why do people dislike Melee and Melee players?

[R3D3MON]

And that sucks, because one of the things about smash as a spectator sport is that there's so much going on that the player doesn't see. At the absolute top level of play mindgames happen practically every second, and the players have to plan ahead, consider their opponent's options in relation with their own, and excecute as fast and precislay as they can. Most spectators get all hyped when they see flashy techskill but there's sooooo much more to the game than looking cool.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[Lil Puddin]

It's interesting that Smash 4 is infinitely easier than melee, but I would argue the toxicity in that game is even worse (with top players like ZeRo apparently getting death threats).

Toxicity has to do with how angry a game can make someone too. While competitive will always be salty, I don't think any Smash is as salt inducing as Melee is just for being the way it is (among it's own community no less). I also noticed when talking about Melee there's just an overall elitist attitude. I'm not sure if it's people trying to add flair to their words or they're just trying to be condescending without being directly insulting. For example, phrases like "X is infinitely easier than Melee" tend to pop up. :^)

Most competitive players in general (or Internet-famous people) get stupid death threats because people think it's FUNNIE XD MEMES!!! or some stupid garbage like that.

 

[R3D3MON]

Toxicity has to do with how angry a game can make someone too. While competitive will always be salty, I don't think any Smash is as salt inducing as Melee is just for being the way it is (among it's own community no less). I also noticed when talking about Melee there's just an overall elitist attitude. I'm not sure if it's people trying to add flair to their words or they're just trying to be condescending without being directly insulting. For example, phrases like "X is infinitely easier than Melee" tend to pop up. :^)

Most competitive players in general (or Internet-famous people) get stupid death threats because people think it's FUNNIE XD MEMES!!! or some stupid garbage like that.

And I'm saying Smash 4 players and its game induce even more salt within its player base for rather shallow reasons. Part of this comes from the way Smash 4 players talk about Match-ups and characters. For example, I hear an abundance of stupid-ass phrases like "cheese" or "gimmicks" or "brain-dead characters" or "Zero Skill Spamus", etc. from Smash 4 players to justify their lack of effort or dedication into properly learning MUs. Instead of actually getting good at the game, Smash 4 players tend to let their ego run wild from a bad combination of "mah low-tier iz the best!!!!" and For Glory nonsense.

Complaining and arguing instead of actually playing the game and getting good is the quickest way to anger and saltiness, which is a chronic problem only within the Smash 4 community.

 

[CAUP]

I think ONLY is pushing it but it does seem more prevalent in smash 4. I think it's just because the scene is younger. I assume it will improve over time.

 

[BrenoBR]

Please, correct me if I’m wrong but that is how much I know about it.
When Brawl first came out, Melee players weren’t elitists with its community. The same can’t be said about Brawl players though, who would sh*t on anyone who didn’t transition early on. If you watch the Youtube video “How good is Mango”, it isn’t a coincidence nor elitism of the creator of the video to put in the description:
“First off DO NOT MENTION BRAWL IN THE COMMENTS they will be deleted immediately.”
That was how bad the early brawl community was, and Melee players had to defend themselves. This created a flaming war between brawl and Melee players. However, when Smash 4 launched, most brawl players transitioned but also there were lots of new people on the scene who didn’t understand why Melee players were being that douchey, when they were actually continuing a war started by the early Brawl players, most of which have actually already left the scene.
Tl;dr Brawl players started a war, but Melee players are prolonging it more than it should.
(Also sorry for some weird word picking, couldn’t swear and English isn’t my first language)

 

[R3D3MON]

I think ONLY is pushing it but it does seem more prevalent in smash 4. I think it's just because the scene is younger. I assume it will improve over time.

I think one of the biggest cause of this "complaining culture" and ensuing toxicity in Smash 4 is the attitude of higher level players. For example, players like Ally brag about not practicing the game and beating others solely on fundamentals. At the same time, Ally's twitter feed is essentially 24/7 complaints about *insert top tier here*, which further fuels the mindset of lower level players to complain instead of actually learn relevant matchups in the meta. With Nintendo's tendency to listen to these vocal minorities when dealing with patches, the toxicity of the complaining culture still continues loudly in the Smash 4 scene and I don't think it will ever stop in time or as the scene matures.

Of course other top players like ZeRo do not actually complain as much (or when they complain they realize it is their own saltiness speaking) because they have played melee or brawl and they know that failing to learn or adapt to the meta will halt your progress in the game. However it seems that people like ZeRo, who are actually and constantly trying to get better at the game, are continuously rejected or outright hated by the larger community for "playing top tiers" and more empty, shallow reasons.


Toxicity will prevail and grow as long as a "complaining culture" continues in a game, and the Smash 4 scene seems to be the biggest perpetrator of this degenerative attitude. And I think this is partly due to the nature of the game (patches, removal of higher potential skill ceilings for characters through removal of techniques and movement options, much easier overall difficulty) and by some of its higher-tier players (e.g. Ally, C. Zack, etc.).

 

[Lil Puddin]

R3D3MON It's not a complaining culture and please do not bring that up again. Ever. Anywhere. The "complaining culture being a problem" thing is something that has been used as a way to shame people into not voicing valid complaints. I could go on about what constitutes a valid complaint, a valid complaint's purpose for mental health/growth, and what constitutes a toxic complaint. But I will not because this ain't office hours and also because long paragraphs are major bummers.

The issue is just people being apathetic, rude, or outright toxic. Loud, awful, toxic people make things seem more toxic. Go figure. The more followers or fame a toxic person has, the more awfulness spreads. People who don't acknowledge that form of toxicity and point elsewhere are also a part of the problem. Toxic-fueled actions or posts are the problems here. Complaining is not.

Melee had all the problems Sm4sh has now during its peak years. Comparing 2017 Melee to 2017 Sm4sh communities will look conclusive since there's so much Sm4sh-related stuff volume wise. But Melee and Sm4sh probably have similar good/bad ratios. If the two were time swapped, then just replace any Bayonetta salt with Fox salt. Death threats to famous people? Yeah that's nothing new and also still very illegal. Elitists? Of course.

 

[CAUP]

Lil Puddin Please give any evidence of anyone in melee being given death threats. Spoiler- I really don't think anyone has : / The closest thing I can think of is a TO going crazy. Also just because famous people are given death threats doesn't mean that is some thing you should write off and accept as the status quo : p

I agree with you that a lot of the immaturity in the smash 4 scene is just because of it's age. I agree.

Hopefully smash 4 players get that it feels pretty dumb to be called elitist for most melee players. Like isn't labeling and writing off a group an elitist strategy, or at least an exclusionary one? And I'm not saying all smash 4 players do that, or that melee doesn't have elitists or anything like that. The idea that most melee players are elitists who hate smash 4 is just wrong. A lot of people in this thread have mentioned streams where melee players seem to diss smash 4. The vast, vast, vast majority of melee players don't care or watch smash 4 : P I absolutely assure you the majority of comments like that are people who keep up with the smash four scene who like to troll smash 4 who have nothing to do with melee. I also assure you some of those comments are from melee players. But people don't sit around watching games they hate to troll unless they are a level of acidity uncommon in any community.

What I am saying is, statements like "melee players are elitists" are just stupid. Like I don't have anything against smash 4 at all. Like I think the community has issues and stuff but I hold no grudges and wish the community the best. Just like melee. And I'm not some minority. Honestly I don't think most of the vocal minority you associate with melee is even a part of it, just random internet trolls who know about smash.

It's like some trolls called smash 4 players casuals and in response someone calls melee players elitists. That's just perpetuating stupidity.

 

[Reila]

Melee players hating on every Smash game that isn't Melee doesn't help.

 

[CAUP]

Who are these melee players who hate on every other smash game? : P

(That said most melee players really do dislike brawl ; ) )

 

[R3D3MON]

Smash 4 players hating on every Smash game that isn't Smash 4 doesn't help.

FTFY

 

[R3D3MON]

R3D3MON It's not a complaining culture and please do not bring that up again. Ever. Anywhere. The "complaining culture being a problem" thing is something that has been used as a way to shame people into not voicing valid complaints. I could go on about what constitutes a valid complaint, a valid complaint's purpose for mental health/growth, and what constitutes a toxic complaint. But I will not because this ain't office hours and also because long paragraphs are major bummers.

So you talk about mental health and pass off ZeRo's death threats as something that is normal/okay?

:thonk:

 

[LastTheories]

The biggest reason for this "civil war" is because of these arguments in general. Nobody is ever hesitant to say that Melee is more skill intensive and more spectator friendly. Nobody questions it. If someone says 64, Brawl, or 4 is better, what happens? I don't think I even need to answer. There's this insane double standard going on, and it's ridiculous. Have your opinions but don't belittle others for theirs. Until then goodbye #OneUnit but then again that's been dead for a while.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Melee players hating on every Smash game that isn't Melee doesn't help.

Hey, that's not true. We enjoy Smash 64 too.

 

[CAUP]

The biggest reason for this "civil war" is because of these arguments in general. Nobody is ever hesitant to say that Melee is more skill intensive and more spectator friendly. Nobody questions it. If someone says 64, Brawl, or 4 is better, what happens? I don't think I even need to answer. There's this insane double standard going on, and it's ridiculous. Have your opinions but don't belittle others for theirs. Until then goodbye #OneUnit but then again that's been dead for a while.

I mean what civil war though? The only civil war smash has actually experience was between melee and brawl. I'm telling you, I know literally no melee players who care that much about smash 4. The ones who do play it : P The only ones talking about a civil war are smash 4 players. And only a small subsection of smash 4 players.

If someone says another smash game is better than melee I will disagree with them and think they are wrong. And most melee players will. Just like if I tell you melee is better than smash 4, I hope you tell me I'm wrong. I hope you passionately love your game and think it's the best game you could be playing.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Lil Puddin Please give any evidence of anyone in melee being given death threats. Spoiler- I really don't think anyone has : / The closest thing I can think of is a TO going crazy. Also just because famous people are given death threats doesn't mean that is some thing you should write off and accept as the status quo

So you talk about mental health and pass off ZeRo's death threats as something that is normal/okay?

:thonk:

I suppose the "still very illegal" part of the sentence didn't insinuate "it's not OK to do this and only awful people would do this."

Threats are not OK.
Harassing anyone is not OK.
Scaring or harassing people who are just trying to do their job is not OK.
Scaring or harassing people who are just trying to live is not OK.
It's. Not. OK.

Thanks to the Internet it's even easier to pass off threats or harassment without any consequences. All we can do as bystanders are report the harassers. In short - it sucks and is totally unfair. It's what famous (Internet, IRL, whatever) people deal with on a weeky basis because of jealous people, people doing it for TEH LULZ!!!, and other nonsensical reasons. If they're not being threatened, they're being harassed. It's a circle of toxic stupidity because people don't know how to behave; immaturity is rampant on the Internet.

Melee players hating on every Smash game that isn't Melee doesn't help.

You described elitists, not Melee players. Those two are not mutually exclusive.

The biggest reason for this "civil war" is because of these arguments in general. Nobody is ever hesitant to say that Melee is more skill intensive and more spectator friendly. Nobody questions it. If someone says 64, Brawl, or 4 is better, what happens? I don't think I even need to answer. There's this insane double standard going on, and it's ridiculous. Have your opinions but don't belittle others for theirs. Until then goodbye #OneUnit but then again that's been dead for a while.

Melee is factually the most mechanically intensive of all the Smash games to date. It's a fast paced game in general. Meanwhile Sm4sh is the most MU-knowledge intensive of all Smash Bros games because there's 50+ characters.

"More spectator friendly" is subjective so I'll pass on that one. Arguing over subjective matter isn't usually the best use of one's time.

Then again I'm a Zelda main, so I probably don't know how to use my time wisely.

I wouldn't say there's a double standard either. It's just as CAUP says, people will defend the game they like. Sometimes they may get a bit too rowdy and use definitive language, which basically makes it seem like they're passing off their opinions as fact... That's when things get messy. And annoying.

 

[R3D3MON]

The biggest reason for this "civil war" is because of these arguments in general. Nobody is ever hesitant to say that Melee is more skill intensive and more spectator friendly. Nobody questions it. If someone says 64, Brawl, or 4 is better, what happens? I don't think I even need to answer. There's this insane double standard going on, and it's ridiculous. Have your opinions but don't belittle others for theirs. Until then goodbye #OneUnit but then again that's been dead for a while.

The only civil war I see is inside the Smash 4 community as they argue with each other about how balanced/unbalanced their game is, how "degenrate" the meta is because competitive players use top tiers to win (wow! What a shocker), how bayonetta (or really any other top tier character) and every bayonetta players are trash (Captain Zack where you at), etc.

Melee is factually the most mechanically intensive of all the Smash games to date. It's a fast paced game in general. Meanwhile Sm4sh is the most MU-knowledge intensive of all Smash Bros games because there's 50+ characters.

Highly debatable. Just because there are more characters doesn't mean you actually need to have more MU-knowledge since the depth of every single character in Melee far surpasses any character depth in Smash 4. This is true for other smash games, such as Brawl, PM, and Smash 64.

For instance, I would say Brawl meta knight probably has more depth and nuances you need to understand to play competitively compared to the entire Smash 4 cast combined. Does this mean Brawl requires less MU-knowledge? I don't think so.

 

[LastTheories]

The only reason I used the term civil war was because the OP is taliking about why people don't like melee players and melee in general. It's a civil war because smashers are against smashers and I don't like that. The only disdain I've ever seen from either side is really just vehemothly defending their own respective game. I'm glad you guys are respective of my opinions of each smash game but others aren't so lucky that was the only point of my post.

Then again I'm a Zelda main, so I probably don't know how to use my time wisely.

I disagree you're pushing the meta of a character no time ist ever wasted

 

[Buddhahobo]

Because they poisoned our water supply, burned our crops and delivered a plague unto our houses!

Thanks to the Internet it's even easier to pass off threats or harassment without any consequences.

It also acts as a near limitless multiplier in terms of how much can be passed off. Like, the magnitude of harassing comments one receives streaming in the states could just as easily be coming from a single snot nosed brat in the middle of India or something, or are just an automated bot made by someone on the otherside of the world, etc.

I mean what civil war though? The only civil war smash has actually experience was between melee and brawl. I'm telling you, I know literally no melee players who care that much about smash 4. The ones who do play it : P The only ones talking about a civil war are smash 4 players. And only a small subsection of smash 4 players.

The Civil War of college dormitories, obviously! Roomie against Roomie, floormate against floormate! Smash may not have the reputation of Mario Party or Mario Kart, but it has destroyed just as many friendships.

But srsly, people in my dorm were pissssed when someone kept flipping our version of Brawl to Other M or something, or when the best dude on the floor kept beating everyone in 1v1 Ganondorf and never had to give up his controller. Beyond that...not really?

Like, what does it mean when someone says "melee players" or "smash 4 players"? 2/3rd of the sales for Smash 4 were on the 3DS, for example. Do they count there? Do we count people playing Melee and are mostly in it to do crazy **** and watch Donkey Kong smack Yoshi around with a sledgehammer into a motion sensor bomb on Pokefloats as "Melee players"?

Cause those make up the vast majority of Smash players. Or, to put it another way, this is an accurate depiction of the vast majority of Smash players:

People who play competitively is already a minority of a niche game. People who feel strongly in any fashion as to the members of some particular scene, even more so.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Highly debatable. Just because there are more characters doesn't mean you actually need to have more MU-knowledge since the depth of every single character in Melee far surpasses any character depth in Smash 4. This is true for other smash games, such as Brawl, PM, and Smash 64.

For instance, I would say Brawl meta knight probably has more depth and nuances you need to understand to play competitively compared to the entire Smash 4 cast combined. Does this mean Brawl requires less MU-knowledge? I don't think so.

I don't think you considered Sm4sh's playing field or mechanics. As well as the balance between characters and everyone practically has combos/traps you have to watch for.

Not to say the characters are perfectly balanced, mind you. It's just the gaps are smaller between best and worst.

Even Zelda can make someone crap their pants if they go "Haha I got this in the bag already, let me just switch to autopilot for a few seconds." It gets

I disagree you're pushing the meta of a character no time ist ever wasted

This is how far Zelda Mains get when we discuss her meta. Then it goes downhill from there.

 

[R3D3MON]

I don't think you considered Sm4sh's playing field or mechanics. As well as the balance between characters and everyone practically has combos/traps you have to watch for.

Not to say the characters are perfectly balanced, mind you. It's just the gaps are smaller between best and worst.

Balance doesn't mean more character depth for characters. In fact with the way Smash 4 balance was handled, most characters were downgraded severely or buffed minimally in order to bring every character to a middle ground in terms of power level, This is exactly why each character has less depth since they don't have powerful options for their meta for the sake of "balance". Thus the claim that you need to know more MUs in Smash 4 compared to other smash titles is a misleading myth that reveals a lack of one's understanding of options and what tech skill does to individual character's meta.

This is why I mentioned in my post Project M. With the way Project M handled balance (keep top tiers same but buff lower tier characters to top tier levels), every character has enormous depth and you actually need to know more matchups compared to Melee or Smash 64 or Brawl.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Brawl and Smash 4 player here. I find the Melee community to be elitist and inclusive.

The community screams "it's us and only us." My impression is they don't care if new players join, only if they're good enough to maintain. That's 15 years of the same combos, characters, and whatnot with a select number of players. Growth doesn't seem at all steady, and you're always seeing the same names place in the Top 20 at tournaments. The tournaments are all won by the same group of three every single time.

The game itself has a fixed and static meta. Fox is #1, then you have 3 contenders, followed by a small handful of viable characters leftover. I was never, ever a fan of Melee's meta. I played Smash 64 first, then the others in order. I love not having to "wavedash" and do "ATs" to maneuver around. I want my characters to fight, not sit there and dance around. You messed up? Eat a combo that kills your character instantly thanks to the way the game is designed. Wasn't intended for tournament play. Just kinda happened because of the community, and it went from there.

I completely see why Sakurai and Nintendo refuse to back Melee and its community. To the TC, you claim Melee tourney guys are respectful. Well, that's cool. That's also a small handful of players. As for its notorious reputation for stupid memes, intolerance towards fans of other Smash games, "we want Melee" chants rudely interrupting other events, and general douchebaggery? You have the rest of the community to thank for that.

Melee is the game, and community, that sealed itself in. It wants to remain inclusive with the same people, the same meta, the same winners, and the same attitude. It's completely inflexible on both fronts, and I want nothing to do with it.

 

[_Hydra_]

I sometimes watch sm4sh tournaments, and the main thing I end up seeing are new players or names i've never heard of before make top 8. While this is pretty cool and all, I feel like melee is unique to the point where the competition is more strict and challenging. I don't feel like melee isn't growing, it's just that we don't see names we've never heard of before making top 8. The community is much smaller, but more players are constantly rising up. It's just based on ur opinion, whether you can stand the competition or not. As for the behavior of melee players, I honestly don't really care about people talking **** or whatever but if you expect to get through any fighting game without any of that then you'd have to be pretty damn lucky. It's a competition, everyone is gonna be at each others' throats. Also, punishing your opponents with combos to death is somewhat common in both games but there aren't as much "true" combos in sm4sh (correct me if im wrong). I just feel like they're the perfect way to make people want to learn how to escape them, further moving the metagame.

 

[ryuu seika]

The game itself has a fixed and static meta. Fox is #1, then you have 3 contenders, followed by a small handful of viable characters leftover. I was never, ever a fan of Melee's meta. I played Smash 64 first, then the others in order. I love not having to "wavedash" and do "ATs" to maneuver around. I want my characters to fight, not sit there and dance around. You messed up? Eat a combo that kills your character instantly thanks to the way the game is designed. Wasn't intended for tournament play. Just kinda happened because of the community, and it went from there.

Melee is a great game well worth playing but, at the competitive level, it embodies just about everything Smash was designed to avoid. It's overcomplicated, combo knowledge heavy and no amount of understanding of the game mechanics will make up for a lack of physical ability. It is fundamentally uninclusive.

But, having spent years with it, the serious players can no longer see that and nor can they tolerate anything bad being said about their favourite game. If you query the need for inputs like L-cancelling which bring literally no benefit over just halving landing lag, you are instantly in the wrong and assumed to be terrible at the game.

And, of course, as any Melee player will tell you when trying to appear an open community, players respect skill, regardless of who you are. Skill that, at this point, takes a long time to develop. So is that really being open to newcomers?

If we could play Melee without the techskill, I do believe it would be a better game for all but the hardcore veterans.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Melee is a great game well worth playing but, at the competitive level, it embodies just about everything Smash was designed to avoid. It's overcomplicated, combo knowledge heavy and no amount of understanding of the game mechanics will make up for a lack of physical ability. It is fundamentally uninclusive.

But, having spent years with it, the serious players can no longer see that and nor can they tolerate anything bad being said about their favourite game. If you query the need for inputs like L-cancelling which bring literally no benefit over just halving landing lag, you are instantly in the wrong and assumed to be terrible at the game.

And, of course, as any Melee player will tell you when trying to appear an open community, players respect skill, regardless of who you are. Skill that, at this point, takes a long time to develop. So is that really being open to newcomers?

If we could play Melee without the techskill, I do believe it would be a better game for all but the hardcore veterans.

I would be down to play Melee if it was like the rest of the Smash series.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheesh this thread seems to be a little over the edge.

Melee itself is fine; it fills a niche no other smash game fulfills (execution-heavy game with a real in-depth combo system with sandbox-y player expression). In fact, melee follows the same principles of artistic software like blender and FL studios and other art stuff where your ideas directly contribute to your execution goals, as execution is a skill with no ceiling.

However, I've heard melee players avoid switching off of an aggressive play style because they think playing lame will ruin the game. Is this true?

Smash 4 is still pretty young, with a handful of people pioneering their character rn, so any thoughts on the lack of dynamicism in the characters should be set aside, or you should pioneer your character yourself. Also, balance in smash 4 isn't bad at all, a lot of mid and low tier characters have a decent MU with one of the top tiers (Ike-sonic for example) and the only one that stands out is bayo. It's the players that determine how fast the meta develops and who gets developed.

This isn't a melee-specific thing, but I dislike any player that plays aggressive for enjoyment of the spectators. After that, the game isn't competitive anymore, but some weird copycat WWE stuff.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Sheesh this thread seems to be a little over the edge.

Melee itself is fine; it fills a niche no other smash game fulfills (execution-heavy game with a real in-depth combo system with sandbox-y player expression). In fact, melee follows the same principles of artistic software like blender and FL studios and other art stuff where your ideas directly contribute to your execution goals, as execution is a skill with no ceiling.

However, I've heard melee players avoid switching off of an aggressive play style because they think playing lame will ruin the game. Is this true?

Smash 4 is still pretty young, with a handful of people pioneering their character rn, so any thoughts on the lack of dynamicism in the characters should be set aside, or you should pioneer your character yourself. Also, balance in smash 4 isn't bad at all, a lot of mid and low tier characters have a decent MU with one of the top tiers (Ike-sonic for example) and the only one that stands out is bayo. It's the players that determine how fast the meta develops and who gets developed.

This isn't a melee-specific thing, but I dislike any player that plays aggressive for enjoyment of the spectators. After that, the game isn't competitive anymore, but some weird copycat WWE stuff.

I don't like the way Melee is played. But I also strongly dislike the meta for the Marvel vs. Capcom series. Take of that what you will.

I don't mind aggressive play. But Melee and MvC2 rely heavily on a small pool of tiers, infinite combos, and "hype" moments by destroying your opponent before they have a chance to fight back. Really, nothing about that is fun to watch or play.

Melee's fanbase also tends to be viewed as arrogant, bashing players for bad play, uninviting to new players, spamming the same memes repeatedly, and generally talking ****. Even if there are some good guys in the community that aren't like that, the majority opinion comes from the vocal ones who invade social media and Twitch chat.

My first experience with the Melee fanbase was when I was 14. I was on GameFAQs, and I thought Roy was stronger than Marth. That comes from preview and non-meta experience that he was supposed to be "slower and stronger". Well, that was the day I learned what the hell a tier list was, what "meta" was, and how characters may not be balanced around their strengths entirely as they're supposed to be. Turns out, Roy was worse in every way, and I literally couldn't believe it. Unfortunately, the guys on the Melee board were absolutely rude to me. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, but they weren't welcoming about it.

After that, my experience with the Melee fanbase involved people bashing Brawl, a game I loved. "Go back to Melee." Why? So you can wavedash your way through matches? Absolutely boring.

Plus, every piece of Melee art and meme merchandise involves Fox and Falco. They're not the mascots of the game. They're popularized because of the oversaturation of those characters in tournaments.

It's incredibly niche and closed. People may like Melee, but it definitely is not for me. I dislike its culture, its meta, and largely its fanbase. I don't see why it's shoehorned into tournaments that don't need it. Smash 4 TO goes, "hey, new Smash tournament." First comment is, "where's the Melee?"

Go to a Smash tournament. You hear the hype from the crowd. Nothing to do with Smash 4. Melee just going off because they feel like it. This is why I advocate separating Smash 4 and Melee in different rooms at majors. We want to be with our people. Let them be with their people. We aren't the same game, and we aren't the same crowd.

I'm just tired of it. I wish Melee would die already, and I'm sure Nintendo feels the same way. But the fanbase will continue to beat the dead horse.

Edit: I should probably add that I don't have this problem with Smash 64 or Brawl. I know neither game is balanced for competition, yet people play them anyway. They're fun to these players, they grew up with those games. They're played the way "Smash" is meant to be played. They're not trying to compete with Smash 4, they're more or less isolated to side-events at most tournaments. But the whole goal is to have fun, not to compete with other scenes for dominant. I have far more respect.

I do hate Meta-Knight and I hate the way Brawl's meta became, which is why I can't take playing seriously. I also have a serious problem when people try to say Brawl is somehow more balanced than Smash 4 in anyway. But there's always going to be some guy that says some stupid ****.

Besides that, I've never had issues with Brawl and its fans.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don't like the way Melee is played. But I also strongly dislike the meta for the Marvel vs. Capcom series. Take of that what you will.

I don't mind aggressive play. But Melee and MvC2 rely heavily on a small pool of tiers, infinite combos, and "hype" moments by destroying your opponent before they have a chance to fight back. Really, nothing about that is fun to watch or play.

Melee's fanbase also tends to be viewed as arrogant, bashing players for bad play, uninviting to new players, spamming the same memes repeatedly, and generally talking ****. Even if there are some good guys in the community that aren't like that, the majority opinion comes from the vocal ones who invade social media and Twitch chat.

My first experience with the Melee fanbase was when I was 14. I was on GameFAQs, and I thought Roy was stronger than Marth. That comes from preview and non-meta experience that he was supposed to be "slower and stronger". Well, that was the day I learned what the hell a tier list was, what "meta" was, and how characters may not be balanced around their strengths entirely as they're supposed to be. Turns out, Roy was worse in every way, and I literally couldn't believe it. Unfortunately, the guys on the Melee board were absolutely rude to me. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, but they weren't welcoming about it.

After that, my experience with the Melee fanbase involved people bashing Brawl, a game I loved. "Go back to Melee." Why? So you can wavedash your way through matches? Absolutely boring.

Plus, every piece of Melee art and meme merchandise involves Fox and Falco. They're not the mascots of the game. They're popularized because of the oversaturation of those characters in tournaments.

It's incredibly niche and closed. People may like Melee, but it definitely is not for me. I dislike its culture, its meta, and largely its fanbase. I don't see why it's shoehorned into tournaments that don't need it. Smash 4 TO goes, "hey, new Smash tournament." First comment is, "where's the Melee?"

Go to a Smash tournament. You hear the hype from the crowd. Nothing to do with Smash 4. Melee just going off because they feel like it. This is why I advocate separating Smash 4 and Melee in different rooms at majors. We want to be with our people. Let them be with their people. We aren't the same game, and we aren't the same crowd.

I'm just tired of it. I wish Melee would die already, and I'm sure Nintendo feels the same way. But the fanbase will continue to beat the dead horse.

You're looking at it from a bad angle. Mvc2 is isn't really all about infinite combos anyhow, it's more on resets and long combos. Melee even less so, there's never a infinite more so a 0-death, with plenty of interactions in between. But, the secret sauce to their success is expression. The games are sandboxes for us to mess with, with tooons of options to mess around with. I can play however I like with fox or whatever team I create in marvel. But, that ain't for everybody doe.

I won't addres most of your complaints, but the ending isn't justified. Sure, some of their players are horrible people, but you said it yourself that it was a while ago when people were young (you were 14 at the time). People grow up and move on and become more mature. Wishing a game would die isn't necessary.

Where could the players go to for their expression-based game with no melee?

 

[R3D3MON]

You're looking at it from a bad angle. Mvc2 is isn't really all about infinite combos anyhow, it's more on resets and long combos. Melee even less so, there's never a infinite more so a 0-death, with plenty of interactions in between. But, the secret sauce to their success is expression. The games are sandboxes for us to mess with, with tooons of options to mess around with. I can play however I like with fox or whatever team I create in marvel. But, that ain't for everybody doe.

I won't addres most of your complaints, but the ending isn't justified. Sure, some of their players are horrible people, but you said it yourself that it was a while ago when people were young (you were 14 at the time). People grow up and move on and become more mature. Wishing a game would die isn't necessary.

Where could the players go to for their expression-based game with no melee?

Stop responding to trolls buddy, you are wasting your time.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Sounds like Rango had one unfortunate experience, and now has concocted this narrative that he's adamant about being reality. Also sounds like a whole slew of generalizations, aimed at what is actually a very broad and diverse demographic. People like Melee because they like Melee.

It's that simple. You're absolutely entitled to prefer other installments, I personally enjoy Smash 64 the most, but what you're saying is misleading. If the Melee community wasn't welcoming to new players, and was overtly elitist and inclusive, how is it still alive 16 years later? Players filter in and out all the time, constantly. New blood keeps the game alive, please find me examples of people arguing against this. It won't happen.

And about the technical ceiling- those people walk all over you because they put the years and time and grinding into it. Sweat and blisters and broken triggers. That's why it's also funny how people bash L-Cancelling, but don't mention Z-Cancelling in 64, which predates L-Cancelling. How is depth and a good combo system detrimental to any fighting platform? Makes no sense; it sounds like you are taking your grievances out on an imaginary boogyman within the community that doesn't exist, since you feel Melee sucks. And that's cool.

But it's still a fallacious series of blanket statements and that's not going to fly in any serious discussion.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Complaining and arguing instead of actually playing the game and getting good is the quickest way to anger and saltiness, which is a chronic problem only within the Smash 4 community.

Why ONLY the Sm4sh community? Could it be because of younger players playing the game?

 

[R3D3MON]

Why ONLY the Sm4sh community? Could it be because of younger players playing the game?

Honestly, I see it as a symptom of many different problems not necessarily related to Smash combined with an essential core aspect of Smash 4 that enables this toxic complaining culture within the Sm4sh community.


Firstly, I think age does have some part, but this age issue is present in other smash communities as well. Smash 4 community is young, but so are other Smash communities atm as new players come and go. And of course, this issue will most likely be exacerbated with SSBU coming.

Another problem is that social media, as well as sites like reddit, unfortunately encourage mob mentality and negative drama to perpetuate. I'm not really sure what the best solution is for this because the issue of mob mentality is a problem that extends way beyond Smash. Perhaps encouraging people to more actively use and post on Smashboards by recruiting and incentivizing Smash content creators of all kinds to post on Smashboards might be a solution because Discord, imo, creates too much fragmentation within the community, but I digress.


Finally, the essential aspect of Smash 4 that really enables toxic complaint culture to persist is patches. And by saying this, I am not implying that there is something inherently more immature or bad about Smash 4 players. But the fact that patches and patch culture existed in Smash 4 for a significant amount of the game's lifetime (and most likely will going forward in SSBU as well) inevitably lead to many people complaining and being very vocal about their salty opinions. And this is because it is just soooooooooo much easier to complain about things you don't like about the game, rather than learning to counter it properly or respecting it.

This becomes especially evident in Smash 4 and its community when you realize that most patches in Smash 4 directly addressed and validated people's complaints and salty outcries, such as Diddy nerfs, Sheik nerfs, Rosa nerfs, Little Mac nerfs, Luigi nerfs, etc etc. And once again, I want to stress that this is not because Smash 4 players are inherently more salty or immature compared to other Smash players; everybody can get salty and complain about anything within a game for whatever reason, even top players. For example, Leffen, a top Melee player and a high tier DBFZ player, routinely complains about certain top tier characters in DBFZ in twitter and have made numerous posts about begging for the developers to nerf them. Even though Leffen regularly competes in a game with no patches, and thus one would expect him to not be such a big complainer and know the value of overcoming difficulties within a game, regardless he regularly complains in another fighting game community.

Of course, his endless salt against Jigglypuff is quite infamous as well. But the most important fact about Leffen's complaint against Jigglypuff in Melee is that, at the end of the day, you have to adapt or you will lose. No matter how much you complain about a certain character being dumb, broken, OP, cheesy, etc, there are no patches in Melee (and other Smash games beside SSB4) to validate your scrub opinion and save you from overcoming difficulties within the game. You have to "git gud", essentially, or you will never stop losing. In conclusion, patches are generally not good for the overall health and longevity of any fighting game because it quickly promotes scrub behavior from the playerbase and eventually leads to degenerate mob mentality, no matter how mature the players may be. And the Smash 4 community really is a clear example of this imo, what with the recent fiasco at Evo 2018 GF and a toxic, mean-spirited twitter response from someone called Parappa (and Sinji's support of said tweet) towards Lima's incredibly vulnerable and relatable twitlonger post (twitter links below):

https://twitter.com/LimaBayo/status/1032660469151145984

https://twitter.com/Parappa_SSB/status/1033019113386459138

https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1033128791047118848

Of course, not all patches are bad. I love patches that actively buff lower tier characters or characters that are not meta-relevant, but this is a tall order to ask from the developers of any fighting game because they are pressured by the playerbase to respond to not just buff requests but also nerf requests, and that's preciesly when **** starts going down.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

what with the recent fiasco at Evo 2018 GF

What fiasco is that? The one with CaptainZack and another Bayonetta player? What happened?

 

[R3D3MON]

What fiasco is that? The one with CaptainZack and another Bayonetta player? What happened?

Besides the GF itself, people were ****ting on both CaptainZack and Lima all weekend both online and irl, as well as droves of people leaving the Smash 4 GF and the remaining people booing them loudly.

It was an absolute **** show, and the FGC's belief that Smash 4 players are babies were pretty much confirmed. Despite the insular Sm4sh community claiming that CaptainZack and Lima's stalling would make the Smash 4 community look bad to the FGC, the complete opposite (as expected) occurred. FGC heads and leaders like James Chen thought the behavior of the Sm4sh community was immature and silly, and they thought what CaptainZack and Lima did was totally understandable.


Yikes.

 

[notrami]

melee's toxic community doesn't actually exist, it's just a meme propagated by people who don't understand the game or just can't take the banter

stay salty tr4sh babies

 

[CAUP]

I mean parts of the melee community are definitely toxic, but yeah, the idea that it is as a whole is obviously wrong. Like the scene wouldn't have lasted 17 years if it was just toxic and awful. We've survived mostly by determination and love for the game.

 

[MalanoMan]

There are elitists in any group of people that dedicate themselves to something. Melee is no different. The elitism is stronger in this community because it is believed to be superior to other smashes. Additionally, I think trash talking is a huge aspect of melee. The documentary makes this clear.

Recently, I wanted to get a tourney started in my area and approached a local retro game store that used to hold melee tourneys. They said they stopped doing it due to toxicity. I honestly wonder what happened that caused their melee community to disappear entirely. It was discouraging, but I'm not gunna let it stop me. I know there is a community our there, and if I can revive it, I can also try and reduce the toxicity.

 

[Quan]

Sm4sh≠Melee. Melee≠Sm4sh. Don't compare the two. Play the one you like. Don't brag, don't complain, just play what you like and have fun.

 

[spinalwolf]

Melee is my favorite smash game and even I won't deny that there is definitely a small part of the community that is elitist. Lets also not sit here and pretend that smash 4 (soon to be Ultimate) community doesn't have it fair share of people who look down upon Melee and its fans though. You could argue this is backlash in response to the toxic hateful melee community but I digress. The point is there's going to be toxic people regardless of what community. Some more than others but its an inevitably.

 

[gogurtpeachy]

I've been a part of both scene for a long time, and i gotta say the "elitist" attitude smash 4 players like to accuse melee players of having is so hypocritical. Melee players like Melee, and they play Melee, i think it's common smash 4 players confuse the vocal minority for the community at large. I don't think i've ever met a melee player in person who was an elitist about melee in the way it's often described. It may be hypocritical of me to mention, but i seem to have had more toxic or elitist interactions with smash 4 players. There's a couple of smash 4 players that go to my school and i brought up melee in converstion with them only for them to dismiss it immediately as a glitchy mess. in my experience, melee elitism is "i only like melee, so i only play melee" and smash 4 elitism is "oh you like melee? that game is broken, unbalanced garbage, and i play smash 4" but again this could be me cherry picking personal experiences. I think it's important to not consider twitch chat or twitter jims when talking about this attitude, because those people are certainly the vocal minority.