Who wants Sheik DACUS back??

[Cazobie]

Sheiks combo game in brawl was my favorite and i would always finish with a sweet spotted DACUS and it felt so amazing!! i heard about the Melee D-throw chain and it sounds interesting but i am just starting to get into melee so i wouldnt really know. In PM i feel like Sheik is still really strong but lacks a lot of combo finishers. Up smash is a really strong KO move but its very situational as well. DACUS would be amazing to have back and i see no reason why they had to take it away in PM. Who wants it back? :D

 

[victinivcreate1]

Sheiks combo game in brawl was my favorite and i would always finish with a sweet spotted DACUS and it felt so amazing!! i heard about the Melee D-throw chain and it sounds interesting but i am just starting to get into melee so i wouldnt really know. In PM i feel like Sheik is still really strong but lacks a lot of combo finishers. Up smash is a really strong KO move but its very situational as well. DACUS would be amazing to have back and i see no reason why they had to take it away in PM. Who wants it back? :D

One thing. Combo game in brawl. Nuff said.

But I'd like Sheik to have her DACUS. It'd be cool.

 

[Cazobie]

One thing. Combo game in brawl. Nuff said.

But I'd like Sheik to have her DACUS. It'd be cool.

yeah brawl was awful for me because i always wanted awesome combos like sheik can do but the engine in that game... so sad. DACUS was my thing tho and i really want to utilize it in PM with sheik because it wasnt worth much in brawl

 

[BJN39]

I do!

Don't hold your breath on it, though.

I just don't see Brawl things, regardless of how neat they were, being implemented to P:M Sheik.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They would need to increase her jumpsquat by one frame which also has huge disadvantages, mainly when wavedashing. Would be fine with it, though

 

[Deleted member]

i like her as she is idk

 

[foxygrandpa]

i like her as she is idk

I'm not opposed to gaining a dacus but I wouldnt care if she didnt get it.
She's pretty good as she is. The only thing that I might want to see changed is her side b. Her recovery is sufficient, but its bad comparably. Zair tethers are kind of overly safe, but maybe thats just me whining. I dont want to see sheik with a tether at all. It would be cool if her side b was made into some sort of jump akin to something like zss's brawl down special, but maybe slightly smaller. I cant really imagine that breaking her, but I guess its a design choice thats been kept this way for a reason. Switching to zelda for recovery is always an option but it's annoying...still helpful though. It might be interesting to see the two separated, but I dont really see the point of that unless they both get helpful, alternative down specials.
If she stayed the same, I wouldnt mind. She takes a lot of getting used to from her melee counterpart, and it throws a lot of people off. She gained some cool stuff, and a plethora of good matchups. She's still solid, but I dont think she's quite on par with the best like fox or mario, or some other better characters like lucas or link. Again though, she's fine as she is in terms of onstage. Her recovery is very slightly subpar to a lot of others, but I dont think it's terribly necessary to change it.

 

[Cazobie]

I dont mind sheik without it either i just love her DACUS haha but yeah if they arent going to nerf recoveries they should give sheik a better one

 

[Captain Faceroll]

I have a very good feeling that Sheik is going to get her DACUS back, once they figure out how to implement it.

I know her jumpsquat frames are too small, but the rationale I heard was that Lucas's jumpsquat is only 1 frame longer than sheik's, but has longer than 1 frame to do his DACUS. I might have the numbers mixed up (idk if it's exactly 1 or if it's 2, etc.) but I think we'll be seeing her DACUS come back for sure.

I've never played sheik in brawl, nor do I know how to DACUS, so I'm not quite sure how it'll affect her gameplay, but it'll be cool to see. I do think it'd be sweet to get a sweetspot DACUS on a place like fountain though

 

[shairn]

I have a very good feeling that Sheik is going to get her DACUS back, once they figure out how to implement it.

I know her jumpsquat frames are too small, but the rationale I heard was that Lucas's jumpsquat is only 1 frame longer than sheik's, but has longer than 1 frame to do his DACUS. I might have the numbers mixed up (idk if it's exactly 1 or if it's 2, etc.) but I think we'll be seeing her DACUS come back for sure.

I've never played sheik in brawl, nor do I know how to DACUS, so I'm not quite sure how it'll affect her gameplay, but it'll be cool to see. I do think it'd be sweet to get a sweetspot DACUS on a place like fountain though

DACUS input window is jumpsquat - 3 when using the attack button, so Sheik would need one extra frame of jumpsquat to be able to. I personally wouldn't mind having the extra frame.

 

[Captain Faceroll]

DACUS input window is jumpsquat - 3 when using the attack button, so Sheik would need one extra frame of jumpsquat to be able to. I personally wouldn't mind having the extra frame.

They most likely won't add that because it'd affect her "feel" too much, and considering she's a melee vet they most likely don't wanna mess with that.

But we'll see how far they're willing to go about changing her, considering they changed her throw game and that was a pretty big part of what she did in melee, so who knows.

I play sheik in melee and pm, and I'm able to transition between both pretty easily, but that extra frame of jumpsquat would mess with me the most I'd say.

 

[|~J~|]

get em' faceroll ^ :D

 

[shairn]

I play Marth and Sheik and I never had a problem going between either with regard to timing wavedashes or aerials.
Marth has a 4 frame jumpsquat. 1 frame is not the end of the world, especially when it allows you to do cool stuff.

 

[KingsGambit27]

I would love to have sheik's DACUS back, which would give her a reliable and potent killing tool and secure her a position as one of the more solid characters in the game. If it takes a 4 frame jumpsquat to do that, its something that could be adapted to pretty quickly imo, and is worth the acquisition of such a powerful tool.

 

[TheLostSabre]

Hmm...

Question is, how far Shiek's potential DACUS can go if she did have a 4frame jump squat?

 

[ThreeSided]

Full hop Fair > FF > DACUS sounds way too nope. Considering how amazing sheik's tech chase game is, I don't think we need it to be starting from the other side of the stage.

Going to have to say no to this one.

EDIT: This is assuming it retains the distance it had in brawl. It occurs to me that if it were limited to a distance of no further than her dash attack, then it wouldn't be nearly as nope as I was imagining.

That being said, I'm still against adding much to sheik in general considering how good she is. But it's still not nearly as bad as I was thinking before if we just limit the distance travelled.

 

[Captain Faceroll]

I've had several people confirm her DACUS is coming back.

No idea on the distance and specifics compared to the brawl version though.

 

[ThreeSided]

I've had several people confirm her DACUS is coming back.

No idea on the distance and specifics compared to the brawl version though.

This scares me. Don't get me wrong, it'd be tons of fun, but she's at just the right level right now - not too good, but definitely good. In my mind, this is level of sufficiency the PMBR should be going for with all the characters, and if we mess around with it by giving her more options, well, I just don't like that.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You know that also goes in with a combo->fair and nair OoS nerf (by one frame because jumpsquat needs to be 4 now), so I guess thats a fair exchange

 

[Captain Faceroll]

I don't know if they have affected her jumpsquat at all, it's possible they've changed how DACUSs work to make it work with her current jumpsquat. Keep in mind I am not in the PMBR or anything, this is just what I've heard from members of it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

If they change DACUS mechanics to give Sheik a DACUS then that also means that Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucario, MK, Pikachu, Samus, Sonic, and Tink get a DACUS, because they all have three frame jumpsquats.

 

[jtm94]

Word on street Sheik DACUS is too good because it yields a follow up on every character out of her throws no matter DI.

Also I'd expect more characters to get good DACUSs.

 

[KingsGambit27]

So release 3.5 = the year of the DACUS? And if that guarantees USmash out of all of her throws then...well lets prepare the thread and set out the hors d'oeuvres for the wave of new sheik players coming in.

 

[Captain Faceroll]

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/blogpost-8-system-changes

"We have decided to implement a universal two-frame DACUS window for the whole cast of characters"

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, ask and you shall receive I guess. Universal DACUS window feels good by the way. Manageable timing using Z from the little hands on time I've had. Little bit weird but overall a good change.

 

[Mean Green]

Wow lol. I was thinking it, I visited the sheik discussion, and this thread was right at the very top.

Sheik's DACUS was already impossible without practice, and it required Attack on Z for Snake's DACUS method, so unless you claw, you also sacrifice a semi-crucial button. I didn't really understand why she needed it gone altogether if Lucas can gain the best one (and easiest after Ganon imo, if your Z = Attack). Can someone explain this, if Link/Falco keep their DACUS and Marth/Roy gained one? I so confuse..

This is irrelevant, but they also shortened her up-B off of an edge.. it's slower and goes nowhere now. Doesn't make sense to me either, does anyone know why this was done?

So they removed the DACUS and tether chain, purposely nerfed the Melee d-throw, and also [nerfed?] the Brawl ledge up-B. But with those tools, would she be worth calling A-tier, even without re-adding the throw?

 

[InfinityCollision]

You're trying to approach it as a change from Brawl Sheik to PM Sheik, but the PMDT used Melee Sheik as their baseline. Big difference. They didn't go out of their way to remove her DACUS, tether, etc... restoring her jumpsquat to Melee's 3-frame animation made her unable to perform a DACUS. Now she gets to have her cake and eat it too.

 

[Mean Green]

You're trying to approach it as a change from Brawl Sheik to PM Sheik, but the PMDT used Melee Sheik as their baseline. Big difference. They didn't go out of their way to remove her DACUS, tether, etc... restoring her jumpsquat to Melee's 3-frame animation made her unable to perform a DACUS. Now she gets to have her cake and eat it too.

I get it. But I think I worded my post wrong- the thing I was really wondering was why didn't they re-add those abilities at 3.0 (with or without d-throw and tether), and would they even have affected her [disputable A-C] tier placement? If you think "biggest threats in PM", even with those tools Sheik still wouldn't come to mind lol

 

[InfinityCollision]

I already answered that, and it's been mentioned previously in this thread. The only way she could have a DACUS before whatever advancements they've recently made would have been to increase her jumpsquat to four frames. It sounds like a small change, but it does have other consequences.

And while Sheik may not sit in the arguably overpowered top tier of PM 3.02, she is sitting pretty not far below it and has a better time than most against the current top tier jank.

 

[Deleted member]

everyone says sheik is bad

except my play group

they think everyone else is insane lmao

 

[Strong Badam]

I get it. But I think I worded my post wrong- the thing I was really wondering was why didn't they re-add those abilities at 3.0 (with or without d-throw and tether), and would they even have affected her [disputable A-C] tier placement? If you think "biggest threats in PM", even with those tools Sheik still wouldn't come to mind lol

You seem to have come in at a pretty late point in PM's lifespan; Sheik had been that way since 2.0. It makes no less sense to do so in 3.5 than it would have in 3.02. One of many things we simply hadn't gotten around to in 3.02 and have in 3.5, to improve the game.

 

[Mean Green]

I already answered that, and it's been mentioned previously in this thread. The only way she could have a DACUS before whatever advancements they've recently made would have been to increase her jumpsquat to four frames. It sounds like a small change, but it does have other consequences.

And while Sheik may not sit in the arguably overpowered top tier of PM 3.02, she is sitting pretty not far below it and has a better time than most against the current top tier jank.

Oh, I noticed 4-frame part mentioned when I skimmed the page at first, but I didn't know it was really that big a deal.

 

[Mean Green]

You seem to have come in at a pretty late point in PM's lifespan; Sheik had been that way since 2.0. It makes no less sense to do so in 3.5 than it would have in 3.02. One of many things we simply hadn't gotten around to in 3.02 and have in 3.5, to improve the game.

I know she's been like that, I even used to watch the alpha testing way back when. I just kinda expected with the huge 3.0 release that she'd be like everyone else and have both her Melee and Brawl abilities. I didn't exactly get why some things weren't re-added but I guess it's answered now.

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

everyone says sheik is bad

except my play group

they think everyone else is insane lmao

Just because you can outplay people with sheik doesn't make her good or make her kill options/recovery one of the worst in the game. Do you have any archives/videos of you playing? All I could find was two videos and I'd like to see more.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because you can outplay people with sheik doesn't make her good or make her kill options/recovery one of the worst in the game. Do you have any archives/videos of you playing? All I could find was two videos and I'd like to see more.

we're supposed to do some more recording as a group. that said, it's usually wednesday night and tonight is canceled. the two guys that do the recording also tend to put up the worst 5-10 minutes of play when we have like 4+ hours of footage. i'll see what i can do though. the two of me that were put up a few weeks ago are embarrassingly bad imo

edit: great alias lmao

 

[RedEyesWhiteSwaggin]

we're supposed to do some more recording as a group. that said, it's usually wednesday night and tonight is canceled. the two guys that do the recording also tend to put up the worst 5-10 minutes of play when we have like 4+ hours of footage. i'll see what i can do though. the two of me that were put up a few weeks ago are embarrassingly bad imo

edit: great alias lmao

Thank you and I look forward to it. I'm glad you said it because I definitely wasn't impressed with what I saw. It was solid but nowhere near great. It also didn't help that they both were against characters that have limited recoveries.

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you and I look forward to it. I'm glad you said it because I definitely wasn't impressed with what I saw. It was solid but nowhere near great. It also didn't help that they both were against characters that have limited recoveries.

as good as sheik is against recoveries, the few problematic recoveries in the game are problematic against many characters and not just sheik. while she certainly lacks kill options, she is like other fundamentals based characters where maintaining control once you have it is far more important and will lead to many discounted KOs. i have never had issues where i felt like sheik lacked kill power except occasionally against characters that sheik cannot reliably trap like mario, and thats exactly why, sheik cant really leverage position on mario meaningfully. tbh i'm not sure dacus upsmash really solves that issue because it's so situational at best.

edit: also, keep in mind that there's nothing really wrong with "solid" per se. as long as the edge guard does its job of securing the kill easily, that's perfectly fine too. most of the edge guards sheik has look pretty mediocre because you just put them somewhere bad and keep them there until they die, it's rarely impressive to watch.

 

[ThreeSided]

IIRC, PMBR said that they were going to be adjusting DACUSs of individual characters to make them appropriate, so no ludicrous DACUS for Sheik hopefully.