Who thought heros sword needed a critical hit chance?

Silask20

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#1
He has an arsenal of projectiles at his finger tips to spam. Several of them ko at extremely low percentages.

i as bowser, die at 55% on some maps to this, u know i have to use my fists in a fight, I HAVE TO BE UP CLOSE. why dont my claws have a crit hit chance just wondering.

how do you justify giving hero this almost one hit kill wonder addition to his sword and not the actual characters that are melee based?

you know the ones that need it? If i could charge up fireballs that did 40% damage i wouldnt be complaining because itd be on more fair ground alas i cannot. And bowser is one of the easiest characters in the game to zone. Matches against semi intelligent krools, heros, lucas, samus etc are actually impossible for a bowser to counter. So when i finally get through the spam id love for a crit hit chance.
 
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#2
The only projectile he has that could be considered spammable is Frizz. The others either cost too much MP, take too long to charge up, or require RNG in order to access. Also, the only attacks he has that can crit are his FSmash, USmash, DSmash, and Hatchet Man.

Far as why he has it and Bowser doesn't, he originates from a game that has the mechanic and Bowser does not. They just went all in on the DQ guy in series accuracy.
 

Silask20

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#3
The only projectile he has that could be considered spammable is Frizz. The others either cost too much MP, take too long to charge up, or require RNG in order to access. Also, the only attacks he has that can crit are his FSmash, USmash, DSmash, and Hatchet Man.

Far as why he has it and Bowser doesn't, he originates from a game that has the mechanic and Bowser does not. They just went all in on the DQ guy in series accuracy.
Pretty sure ive also been crit by his dash attack could be wrong for whatever reason the proc chance on me seems to be >50% and ik its suppose to be around 12 but it seems so much higher.

i just find it unfair this range based rng based character that has the potential to kill at low percentages with his abilities can also almost one shot u with his melee as well.

im a large heavy who needs to get in close, can i catch a break please? I dont think it would be game breaking if my command grab or even my down special could do the same.
 
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#4
Pretty sure ive also been crit by his dash attack could be wrong for whatever reason the proc chance on me seems to be >50% and ik its suppose to be around 12 but it seems so much higher.

i just find it unfair this range based rng based character that has the potential to kill at low percentages with his abilities can also almost one shot u with his melee as well.

im a large heavy who needs to get in close, can i catch a break please? I dont think it would be game breaking if my command grab or even my down special could do the same.
I think you're just frustrated dealing with his kit and it's making you feel it's more powerful than it actually is. I've been there, Lucas's freeze frustrates the hell out of me just because of how rewarding it is if it hits. Ness can edgeguard Hero in an almost effortless manner when he recovers low, just by dangling his Yo-Yo off the side of the stage. Since Hero cannot act out of Whoosh, he gets thwipped right back down before the ledge can be grabbed, leading him to either dying or hoping his opponent screws a ridiculously easy move up.

Bowser is faster than Hero is, use that to your advantage. Hero's MP will run out if he overuses his spells and nothing he can spam can likely kill Bowser, get in using your speed advantage and hurt him when his MP gets low. Respect Kafrizz and try to avoid challenging Kazap and you'll probably be fine.
 

Sean²

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#5
Hero is inherently anti-competitive. RNG shouldn't exist in the way that it does with that character. Poor design choice from a competitive standpoint. I don't like him either, nothing like him rolling Magic Burst and dying at 20 just for trying to recover, or getting a clean edgeguard on him and him rolling Zoom.

But he's also kind of bad. Slowness, inconsistency, etc. Crits are stupid but you actually have to get hit by one of his slow smash attacks, and then it isn't even guaranteed. Just about every character who has an option faster than his kill moves can avoid them.
 

Sean²

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#10
Still way better than :ultyounglink: & :ultsnake:
Nah, they're decently-designed characters who are victims of circumstance. Nothing about them is really that different from your average Smash character, they're just zoners with really good projectiles. Annoying? yes. Unfair? not really. Smash wasn't meant to be seriously competitive, so their strengths are simply amplified in a 1v1 environment. Same thing with a majority of the super obnoxious characters that you didn't mention like Game & Watch and Palutena. Hero is anti-competitive by design. He's playing a game of chance every time he presses down B in a way that no other character with RNG can. Add in random crits to that, forget about it. If every other character had it, sure, might be fine. But they don't, so he's an outlier. He's absolutely the worst-designed character in the game if you only look at it from a competitive standpoint.

Hero's super fun in FFA games though. Great character to play if you're not trying to be serious.
 

channel_KYX

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#11
He's playing a game of chance every time he presses down B in a way that no other character with RNG can.
While this is true regarding the rng aspect, there is one more thing I like even less: You as the opponent have to pay attention to his menu AND to the spell he chooses. I am unsure if this is what we really want.
To add insult to injury, I have a super hard time remembering what each spell does. Except the super obvious ones like reflect and metal form, I just jump over every spell and hope for the best. There are just too many of them with super awkward names. But I understand that this is a me problem.
 
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#12
Nah, they're decently-designed characters who are victims of circumstance.
I have zero ideas what you're even trying to say here and I don't think I want to know.

Well regardless, I don't agree with any of your points, being RNG focus doesn't flat out make you unfit for competition and honestly, the execution of him turned out pretty mild in the meta, which I can't say the same for most other hairpulling characters. I'd rather deal with more Hero players in bracket since that character still lets you play the game in a healthier manner compared to Yink & Snake.
 
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Sean²

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#13
I have zero ideas what you're even trying to say here and I don't think I want to know.

Well regardless, I don't agree with any of your points, being RNG focus doesn't flat out make you unfit for competition and honestly, the execution of him turned out pretty mild in the meta, which I can't say the same for most other hairpulling characters. I'd rather deal with more Hero players in bracket since that character still lets you play the game in a healthier manner compared to Yink & Snake.
It's not hard to decipher if you actually put your mind into it. They're victims of circumstance, meaning the competitive scene created those monsters. Optimal play in this very specific environment has made them what they are, not the inherent character design. They aren't unfair, can't 0-death you with a single grab/attack, and can generally be beaten with smart counterplay. So if you're considering optimal play with Hero involved, you have to take RNG into account, making it so playing optimally is left to chance - unless you don't use any of his attacks with RNG. Because you know every Hero player wants to roll Magic Burst every time when they're edgeguarding their opponent, but they can't always do so. But, sometimes they get what they want every time they roll Menu out of sheer...dare I say, luck? This makes him poorly designed from a competitive standpoint, not game-as-a-whole standpoint. Hero is kind of a bad character in our environment. So is Little Mac. No one would argue that they poorly designed if you're taking competition into account - something the devs did not do.

And sucks that you don't like those characters. I don't really mind fighting them all that much. I don't necessarily hate fighting Hero either, unless he gets lucky with his menu choices. There are some other characters I definitely get frustrated against, but doesn't necessarily make them poorly designed. Sounds like you're more upset with the general game design than with these specific characters.
 
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#14
Sounds like you're more upset with the general game design than with these specific characters.
I wasn't implying that, sounds more like you're taking it out of context or putting words in my mouth.

Anyway, I still don't flow with your points.
Mainly this one:

They're victims of circumstance, meaning the competitive scene created those monsters. Optimal play in this very specific environment has made them what they are, not the inherent character design.
No... The devs designed them.
That design leads to them functioning as annoying to fight and whether intended or not, the players are taking advantage of it, thus they're poorly designed.
Simple as that.

Feel however you please about whatever character, but my stance nor perception hasn't changed.
 

Silask20

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#16
It's not hard to decipher if you actually put your mind into it. They're victims of circumstance, meaning the competitive scene created those monsters. Optimal play in this very specific environment has made them what they are, not the inherent character design. They aren't unfair, can't 0-death you with a single grab/attack, and can generally be beaten with smart counterplay. So if you're considering optimal play with Hero involved, you have to take RNG into account, making it so playing optimally is left to chance - unless you don't use any of his attacks with RNG. Because you know every Hero player wants to roll Magic Burst every time when they're edgeguarding their opponent, but they can't always do so. But, sometimes they get what they want every time they roll Menu out of sheer...dare I say, luck? This makes him poorly designed from a competitive standpoint, not game-as-a-whole standpoint. Hero is kind of a bad character in our environment. So is Little Mac. No one would argue that they poorly designed if you're taking competition into account - something the devs did not do.

And sucks that you don't like those characters. I don't really mind fighting them all that much. I don't necessarily hate fighting Hero either, unless he gets lucky with his menu choices. There are some other characters I definitely get frustrated against, but doesn't necessarily make them poorly designed. Sounds like you're more upset with the general game design than with these specific characters.
Its any game u play where pvp is the main focus. There will always be broken aspects to certain classes/characters. Like the fact u can spam projectiles in this game at all is actually broken and should be re-visited. With respectful limitations on every projectile similar to bowsers fire. Some of them just create to much of a problem for certain characters. It goes from being a counter to jusy plain unfair.
Then you have Hero who has limitations sure but putting a limitation on his nuclear arsenal doesn’t make it any less OP but rather less spammy which is a step in the right direction.

but giving him this rng god level crit to his melee smashes... bad move
 
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MaddaD

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#17
There will always be broken aspects to certain classes/characters. Like the fact u can spam projectiles in this game at all is actually broken and should be re-visited. With respectful limitations on every projectile similar to bowsers fire. Some of them just create to much of a problem for certain characters. It goes from being a counter to jusy plain unfair.
Just because your main struggles against zoners doesn't mean they're unfair to play against. That's why those kinds of characters are called counterpicks. Many of them are doable but aren't going to be "ezpz win gg"

but giving him this rng god level crit to his melee smashes... bad move
It's 1/8th of a chance, slightly higher than the chance Luigi has to misfire a side special (10%). Regardless of which, he's only ever going to go for Front Smash the majority of the time (unless he's one of those rare Heroes who punishes a roll with Down Smash.)

It's a predictable move that you can easily dodge or follow up.
 

Silask20

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#18
Just because your main struggles against zoners doesn't mean they're unfair to play against. That's why those kinds of characters are called counterpicks. Many of them are doable but aren't going to be "ezpz win gg"


It's 1/8th of a chance, slightly higher than the chance Luigi has to misfire a side special (10%). Regardless of which, he's only ever going to go for Front Smash the majority of the time (unless he's one of those rare Heroes who punishes a roll with Down Smash.)

It's a predictable move that you can easily dodge or follow up.
im not even focusing to much on the zoner idea as a whole which to me is a decorated spammer. But the fact the devs think giving hero an rng and range based character the amount if melee prowess he has now is ridiculous.
A super heavy should NOT be dying at 50% to a smash attack from someone who can also do the same from a distance. Giving little mac crits was a smart idea, inceneroar was a good idea but giving it to hero is bad balancing, terrible decision making on the devs part
 
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#19
Anyone who's seen the rest of this guy's posts will know that he really could care less about the RNG, and this is just another flavor of the month thread complaining why characters with zoning potential won't just curl up and die the moment he gets close to them.
 

Sean²

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#20
No... The devs designed them.
That design leads to them functioning as annoying to fight and whether intended or not, the players are taking advantage of it, thus they're poorly designed.
Simple as that.

Feel however you please about whatever character, but my stance nor perception hasn't changed.
Yes, they did design them - without taking competitive rules and practices into account. Most of what they do that's frustrating comes in the form of playing with competitive rules. The developers had to make every character as well-rounded a possible to function in each multiplayer mode. Which, considering the vastness of the game, can't be done perfectly with each character without automatically making large modifications to their character data depending on the mode you choose. Little Mac can be a KO monster in 4+ player FFAs, but is notably terrible in 1v1. He's the most polarizing example, but same can be said about other characters in a more subtle way. Players take advantage of a lot of things that weren't necessarily intended to be exploited, regardless of character, but here we are.
 
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Silask20

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#21
Anyone who's seen the rest of this guy's posts will know that he really could care less about the RNG, and this is just another flavor of the month thread complaining why characters with zoning potential won't just curl up and die the moment he gets close to them.
This isnt one of my anti spam threads but ill clear this up for you as to why it bothers me.

i like this game because what from ive noticed it takes hundreds of hours of play time to get close to being a high tier player (forget about pro tier most of them have well over a thousand) i consider myself high tier based on the players i compete with, even sometimes giving pro tiers a run for their money with a rare victory here and there and im by no means pro.

theres a reason i brought that up. Now i love fighting those players why? Because they don’t spam. Very rare to find one that does they actually enjoy the fight not hide or run from it even if they are a “zoner” they make it work and i respect that. I can have fun with that.

What upsets me is when i get matched with a more average player who has found some extreme cheese method to winning. Sure i could probably find some complicated unorthodox way to getting around it but fact is it beat me there and now. This cheesey 2-3 button method has overcome any amount of skill i worked hard to earn. How could i not be upset when such an imbalance exists. And it usually has to do with some type of projectile spam. That i as bowser may very well not be able to overcome until and if my opponent makes mistakes

now lets talk about hero who not only had nuclear arsenal at his finger tips but god forbid a lucky or well timed smash attack hits its mark i may die at 50%. Which is ridiculous. They need to give their melee based characters a break.

there needs to be significant nerfs to how projectiles in this game work spamming should NEVER be an option. But my point with hero is his critical strike chance should be removed he simply does not need it.
 
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1FC0

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#22
Pretty sure ive also been crit by his dash attack could be wrong for whatever reason the proc chance on me seems to be >50% and ik its suppose to be around 12 but it seems so much higher.
I do not think that backing up your claims with data of which everyone knows it to be wrong is going to do your credibility much good.
 

Firox

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#23
You know, for an attack that has 1/8 chance of getting crit, it sure as hell feels like it crits a lot more often than that. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but damn if 1/8 is too common for me. Should be 1/10 TOPS considering it can kill at 30-50% and down smash can come out frame 9.
 

Silask20

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#24
You know, for an attack that has 1/8 chance of getting crit, it sure as hell feels like it crits a lot more often than that. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but damn if 1/8 is too common for me. Should be 1/10 TOPS considering it can kill at 30-50% and down smash can come out frame 9.
I agree 100% i get crit more around 50-60% of the time but my point is he also doesn’t need it to begin with.
 
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#25
Hero is far from OP, but his RNG is just bad design. It gives him a small chance of getting broken moves on Down B, or a chance to get a shield break with a smash attack that would normally be blockable and get punished.

His smash attacks having crits because Dragon Quest has them being an RPG is also not a valid justification. Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Mother are all also RPG series but their characters don't get random crits.

The way to fix Hero is remove crits from his smash attacks and buff normals as needed. Then change Down B so that each use cycles through 4 or 5 categories with different kinds of spells so you can't spam the same one. I.E. one category would be Sizz, Sizzle, Bang and Kaboom. Then balance those about being more predictable to use, like Magic Burst not lasting so long as to make it impossible for some characters to recover.
 
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Arrei

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#26
I see the "Down B category" idea floated around a lot for Hero, and I gotta ask... Is that really what folks want? For Hero to have easier access to his deadliest moves? In my opinion, what makes Hero scary isn't simply top-decking Magic Burst at 100 MP, it's having access to a myriad of ways to kill and rack up damage using his entire kit of specials, of which his RNG-happy moves are just a piece of the overall picture. You're going to end up making it even easier for him to access his Oomph/Psyche Up combo and his deadliest projectiles, which you can't even nerf much without needing to compensate his normal kit in significant ways since the strength of his specials is the whole reason he has slow frame data and limited MP, as well as being a big part of his unique identity.

I'm not a big fan of the concept of random crits or instant kill moves despite loving Hero, but I feel as though people are so focused on the "RNG bad" angle that they're clamoring to create an even more frightening monster in its stead.
 
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#27
Hero is far from OP, but his RNG is just bad design. It gives him a small chance of getting broken moves on Down B, or a chance to get a shield break with a smash attack that would normally be blockable and get punished.

His smash attacks having crits because Dragon Quest has them being an RPG is also not a valid justification. Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Mother are all also RPG series but their characters don't get random crits.

The way to fix Hero is remove crits from his smash attacks and buff normals as needed. Then change Down B so that each use cycles through 4 or 5 categories with different kinds of spells so you can't spam the same one. I.E. one category would be Sizz, Sizzle, Bang and Kaboom. Then balance those about being more predictable to use, like Magic Burst not lasting so long as to make it impossible for some characters to recover.
You can't really spam anything from Command Selection. It already prevents anything that appeared in the last menu from showing up consecutively, like how Judge used to work. As well as preventing spells of the same family (Sizz/Sizzle, Bang/Kaboom) from showing up at once, because really, why would you ever pick the weaker version unless your mana was dry?

Arrei Arrei Salt first, viability second, questions later!
 
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#28
Is that really what folks want? For Hero to have easier access to his deadliest moves?
I said his specials would get balanced around being more predictable to use. His stronger variants of some moves could be nerfed or have their mana costs increased as needed, like Kaboom not killing at absurdly low %s, or Bounce having a reduced duration so as to not make it virtually impossible to beat Hero with a zoner.

Oomph and Psyche Up could also get changes so their combo isn't so powerful, and they'd probably be in the same category anyways, that being temporary effects/buffs. The other 2 in it would be Acceleratle and Bounce.
 
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1FC0

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#29
I think that Hero is fine as he is and I love him. Just play with with a few stocks and the randomness will balance out. People play Poker competitively and that works fine despite also having a huge randomness factor. All his vB moves are either a buff (which many characters can get for free), can be shielded and jumped, can be reacted to, or have a huge guaranteed cost for an uncertain reward. His Smashes are really hard to hit so if you get multiple CH's then you are probably just being outplayed too hard and if you lose to one CH in a best of 3 then you're about even skill and someone had to lose.

He's more luck-based than other characters but definitely nothing game breaking. He's still fine as a competitive character.
 

Arrei

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#30
I said his specials would get balanced around being more predictable to use. His stronger variants of some moves could be nerfed or have their mana costs increased as needed, like Kaboom not killing at absurdly low %s, or Bounce having a reduced duration so as to not make it virtually impossible to beat Hero with a zoner.

Oomph and Psyche Up could also get changes so their combo isn't so powerful, and they'd probably be in the same category anyways, that being temporary effects/buffs. The other 2 in it would be Acceleratle and Bounce.
I did mention that the spells being powerful is the entire crux of Hero's design at the same time so there's only so much you can weaken them. The way I see it:
- Durations can't be reduced much before salty comparisons start to get drawn between those buffs and Monado Arts which are always reliably available in exchange for lower duration, no resource cost, and a cooldown, or Deep Breathing, which similarly has a cooldown but longer duration, no cost, and no negative attributes,
- MP costs of the costliest moves can't be increased much without needing to rebalance his entire kit's current MP use and generation rate since Kaboom and Thwack already eat an entire third of his bar which he also depends on for recovery and on-stage presence,
- reducing power can't be done too much without needing to buff his normals significantly since he doesn't really have non-smash attack kill moves and setups without his spells, which ends up turning him into a scary swordie who *also* has access to buffs, projectiles, and large hitboxes.

(Now I'm not necessarily opposed to the prospect of making him a high tier swordie who also has both buffs and zoning tools but something tells me people would complain even more then...)

In this hypothetical I think he'd still have to have access to pretty busted options. At the end of the day the real threat is that he has access to 19 special moves (and Metal moves...) which he was only "allowed" to have because he couldn't rely on getting a specific one, but if he's going to have all those moves then we can't nerf them to uselessness either, right? (Except the Metal moves...)
 

1FC0

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#31
Bounce having a reduced duration so as to not make it virtually impossible to beat Hero with a zoner.
Have you ever actually tried beating a zoner with Hero? Hero does not have a particularly good matchup against zoners. To know what I mean, try fishing for bounce while projectiles are constantly flying around your head. Let's see if you can find a Samus that will stop firing missles and wait for you while you stand around like a sitting duck opening and searching through your menu 3 times just to get Bounce.
 

channel_KYX

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#32
while you stand around like a sitting duck opening and searching through your menu 3 times just to get Bounce.
He was referring to this proposal:
Then change Down B so that each use cycles through 4 or 5 categories with different kinds of spells so you can't spam the same one.
If Hero were able to cycle through his down B abilities, he could have a consistent time window when to use a certain spell, i. e. he could time everything to have a 100 % uptime on Bounce.
MSD didn't mean to nerf Bounce out of the blue in Hero's current iteration.
 
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#33
Rotating menus just sounds like a worse version of Pokemon Trainer switching. He gets well-rounded tools and a nifty dodge on each quick switch. Hero gets to stand there like an idiot flipping through lists of mostly situational moves (that are weakened in this setup to boot according to some people).
 
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#36
I did mention that the spells being powerful is the entire crux of Hero's design at the same time so there's only so much you can weaken them. The way I see it:
- Durations can't be reduced much before salty comparisons start to get drawn between those buffs and Monado Arts which are always reliably available in exchange for lower duration, no resource cost, and a cooldown, or Deep Breathing, which similarly has a cooldown but longer duration, no cost, and no negative attributes,
- MP costs of the costliest moves can't be increased much without needing to rebalance his entire kit's current MP use and generation rate since Kaboom and Thwack already eat an entire third of his bar which he also depends on for recovery and on-stage presence,
- reducing power can't be done too much without needing to buff his normals significantly since he doesn't really have non-smash attack kill moves and setups without his spells, which ends up turning him into a scary swordie who *also* has access to buffs, projectiles, and large hitboxes.

In this hypothetical I think he'd still have to have access to pretty busted options. At the end of the day the real threat is that he has access to 19 special moves (and Metal moves...) which he was only "allowed" to have because he couldn't rely on getting a specific one, but if he's going to have all those moves then we can't nerf them to uselessness either, right? (Except the Metal moves...)
I mean Oomph and Acceleratle are already pretty much just Buster without the knockback reduction and a combination of Jump and Speed. I don't think reducing their duration would make that much of a difference that they'd essentially become a copy of Monado Arts where now they're sooo different.

On Kaboom, its cost is fine, but the launch power it has is a bit ridiculous considering the hitbox is also gigantic and it sucks you in before hand. Just reduce the damage and knockback somewhat and it's fine.
As for thwack and whack, having a random chance to insta-KO is pretty dumb when it comes to trying to play the game competitively. I think those moves would need to be either removed from the spell pool altogether or reworked into something else, maybe turn them into moves that are fairly strong, but also do a ton of shield damage similar to DK's Headbutt.

As for his normals, they do need buffs. Of course they won't be as good as pure melee swordsmen, but right now they're kinda bad. Hero can have his identity of his main thing being MP and a ton of spells and decent normals at the same time. Robin's normals are much better and he also has a bunch of projectiles.
 

Arrei

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#37
By "salty comparisons" on the buff spells, I didn't mean that they're not different enough, I was referring to how shortening them would quickly make their random nature and resource cost look extremely unappealing versus the other buff moves in the game, one being saddled with a cooldown and lower durations in exchange for being freely accessible at any time on top of the nutty combo stuff, and the other boosting all attributes at once in exchange for a cooldown. They already sit at a median point of 10 seconds, longer than most Monado buffs except Buster, but shorter than Deep Breathing.

I have to wonder if the Whack spells would have fit better as being designed like Cloud's Finishing Touch, which was also supposed to be a OHKO move. Incredibly high knockback, but virtually no damage and shield pressure on top of their current slow speeds. I suppose that would make Thwack incredibly scary a lot earlier than it currently is, though the general idea is to not get hit by it if you don't have to in the first place.

Also, I dunno about comparing Hero's case with Robin's, man. Robin has decent frame data on his tilts but those pay a different price in their reach, and his ground speed and character design mean he doesn't ever want to be forced to use them anyway. Hero's price to pay for also having projectiles was in his start and end lag, which are expensive costs to pay in a fighting game to compensate for his power, but I think boosting his normals to equalize things now carries the prospect of making him effectively Lucina with spells. After all, his mobility isn't too much different from Marthcina and he has good reach on most of his moves, it's just he's currently not allowed to really get too much off of those moves on their own without his spells to back him up. Make him self-sufficient so he's now good at all or most times without relying on RNG... well, his spells still need to do something, so he becomes a terror when we add them into the fray.
 
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