Who Does the Balancing?

[Naklsonofnakkl]

Because clearly they don't understand how to do that one job they have.
I just don't understand how every patch seems to create more problems than they fix. Besides Diddy on launch, everyone else felt perfectly fine, sure some buffs and debuffs were needed here and there, but at this point to what end? I feel like the only way to enjoy Smash is to keep up with the Meta. Keeping up with a Meta in a fighting game sounds like you've already messed up in making a good fighting game.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Sakurai and a bunch of other people who were developing the game.


Also, there are a bunch of Fighting games that have had patches that make changes to the meta and are still great tbh.


Also, wait until the end of the year/ early next year.
Those will probably be the last times that there will be patches for the game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Tbh their only problem is not buffing Samus,Dedede, or Jigglypuff,and nerfing Diddy Kong again.

 

[Naklsonofnakkl]

Sakurai and a bunch of other people who were developing the game.


Also, there are a bunch of Fighting games that have had patches that make changes to the meta and are still great tbh.


Also, wait until the end of the year/ early next year.
Those will probably be the last times that there will be patches for the game.

I think that having patches in a fighting game only works when there are picks, bans and so on. If you are free to choose anyone you want, then people will tend to lean towards the stronger characters while you are stuck with a main that is clearly ignored and left to suffer amid terribly balanced characters. Being forced to change mains just to have a better chance of winning sorta seems like a flaw imo.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think that having patches in a fighting game only works when there are picks, bans and so on. If you are free to choose anyone you want, then people will tend to lean towards the stronger characters while you are stuck with a main that is clearly ignored and left to suffer amid terribly balanced characters. Being forced to change mains just to have a better chance of winning sorta seems like a flaw imo.

Ummm... no you aren't?

If you were forced to, I wouldn't be maining Ganon

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ummm... no you aren't?

If you were forced to, I wouldn't be maining Ganon

Except you appear to main Roy and Ryu.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Except you appear to main Roy and Ryu.

>Signature

 

[AreJay25]

Tbh their only problem is not buffing Samus,Dedede, or Jigglypuff,and nerfing Diddy Kong again.

... Diddy got buffed, though?

 

[Wintermelon43]

... Diddy got buffed, though?

I meant all balance patchs, not just this one.

 

[_gold_]

Solution: Main ZSS, because apparently, she never gets touched by the patches.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Solution: Main ZSS, because apparently, she never gets touched by the patches.

Version 1.1.1:

Zero Suit Samus now wears her power suit in battle

 

[Axel311]

I much prefer getting regular balance patches. Imagine how awful this game would be had it not ever been patched. Game would have died like Brawl, tournaments would be nothing but Diddy dittos. When they stop patching the game the meta will be allowed to develop fully. Then the game will get stale and become less interesting. I hope they keep patching for as long as possible.

Despite the complaining, the devs have done an excellent job balancing Diddy. He's still a high tier character, but he's no longer OP and he requires more creativity to do well with. I don't understand people that say he's been nerfed too much when he's still a top 10 character.

Like they did with Diddy's hoo hah, one thing I hope to see addressed is characters that can just do the same thing over and over and do well. Sonic for example. Run away, spin dash to upair, repeat until you win with the occasional grab is stupid. Characters like Sonic should require more creativity and have a higher learning curve. I'm not saying nerf these types of characters, just up their learning curve.

And characters that keep getting ignored is head scratching. Why have they buffed a heavy like DK every patch but not touched Dedede since launch? Why won't they buff Samus or Lucina more even though they've lived on the bottom of the tier list since launch? Why did they decide to super buff Wii Fit last patch after ignoring her more or less for 6 months?

Worst of all, why won't they nerf shiek when she has zero bad matchups, is winning everything and invalidating so many other characters from being touney viable? It's not as bad as original diddy, but sheik is running away with the meta at the moment. Sheik bodies basically every non-rush down and/or combo prone character so badly to the point where top players feel it's hopeless to play their mains against her. That's not good, she's crushing character diversity at tournaments. Look at DKwill, he stopped playing DK against good Sheik mains because it's impossible. Same reason I'm assuming Abadango would not play Pacman against top sheiks at the most recent EVO.

Ok /end sheik rant.

Lots of questions for sure. But they are making progress....there's been more positive changes than negative. The game is much more balanced than it was at launch.

 

[TalKeaton]

It's impossible to please everyone with balance patches in a game like this; inevitably, people will disagree about what "should" have been done and why. Ultimately, there are reasons behind what got changed and what didn't, and even if we knew what all of those were it'd still be hotly debated.

In short: Enjoy the game we have, appreciate the changes you like, acknowledge that we don't always have all the reasoning behind changes we don't like, and don't bash developers you've never met for not building the game around each individual player's preferences.

Smash is a solid game, and the patches help, even if I would love to see some bigger Bowser Jr. buffs.

Signed,

- The guy doing balance patches on a different game

 

[Luig]

I think they shouldn't nerf characters and just buff everybody to the top tier level. Gets less complaints than nerfing top tiers.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Sakurai is balancing the characters pretty much solely with FFAs in mind, which is seemingly why he's so opposed to buffing the heavies and nerfing the speedy rushdown top tiers. Diddy was the exception to the rule.

 

[Luig]

Yeah, powerful characters do much better in FFAs than in 1v1s.

 

[Axel311]

Sakurai is balancing the characters pretty much solely with FFAs in mind, which is seemingly why he's so opposed to buffing DDD, or any other heavyweight (save for Zard and Dong.) The Diddy nerf was the exception to the rule.

I don't know if this is true. Dong has been buffed every patch. Zard got a big buff a couple patches ago. Bowser got some buffs. Shiek has been nerfed minorly the past couple patches, and you mentioned Diddy. Sonic has gotten nerfed hard since release, his kill throw and Upsmash. Falcon keeps getting nerfed.

I think he's keeping both in mind, unfortunately. I wish he'd balance around 1v1 only. Nobody plays FFAs competitively, they're casual only for the most part. And casual folks don't care at all about balance, so what's the point in balancing for casuals? I think most players (casual and competitive) care way more about 1v1 than FFAs. Most casual players I'd say only play 1v1 for glory the vast majority of the time. Just look at tourney mode, the 1v1 for glory tournaments are 30 minute wait everytime, whereas the FFAs are pretty much no wait time ever.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I don't know if this is true. Dong has been buffed every patch. Zard got a big buff a couple patches ago. Bowser got some buffs. Shiek has been nerfed minorly the past couple patches, and you mentioned Diddy. Sonic has gotten nerfed hard since release, his kill throw and Upsmash. Falcon keeps getting nerfed.

True, but they also buffed Pikachu, Luigi and Lucas, and DDD, Lucina, WFT, and Bowjow were all nerfed in the first balance patch. If Sakurai really was keeping 1v1s in mind when balancing the game, none of these changes would've most likely happened and Sheik would've been given the Diddy treatment by now.

 

[Naklsonofnakkl]

Sakurai is balancing the characters pretty much solely with FFAs in mind, which is seemingly why he's so opposed to buffing the heavies and nerfing the speedy rushdown top tiers. Diddy was the exception to the rule.

This is a problem then. Don't buff characters with the intention of making them FFA valuable unless you give us an option to use custom characters in For Glory. FFA's are basically pleb territory (minus the new Tourney system which is practically lag heaven and meta populated). I just don't think there is a reasonable person behind the wheel of balancing patches, and given that there are still plenty of unbalanced characters, it is noticeable that some mains are just left to rot hoping one day they will get a buff or two so they can reasonably compete with higher tier characters.

I guess in my mind, the fact there are such things as 'tier characters' means there issues with balancing. All characters should be viable to fight evenly with any other character. idk, personally smash 4 just feels like unless you suck it up and deal with having to try 2x harder to win, you can't reasonably play an enjoyable character rather than a 'top tier'. That sorta mentality really bugs me. Especially if pro-players switch their mains just to fight against certain characters. Your main should be viable to fight everyone, not just be a counter pick to someone else. To what end then? At some point I end up just quick disconnecting out when I see certain characters show up in 2v2 because I know that even without skill, one accidentally hit from that character could blow me out of the arena unlike myself who plays a tech character that requires decent timing and low ping just to actually do something worthwhile.

In the end I guess it is just my problem. I should simply stop playing a character I enjoy and just deal with changing to whatever character is currently broken at the moment so I can at least have some chance of winning amid the terrible onslaught of unbalanced characters and ever-changing meta. I just wished there was a way for me to viably play a character I like without having to worry if the most recent patch made them even playable or not.

 

[Axel311]

I agree and I feel your pain. 3 big issues I see in Smash 4 in terms of balancing character types:

1) Heavies all have horrible issues with being camped and all get combo'ed to hell. All heavies need better options to deal with projectile spam and should probably live even longer than they do considering the first 50% or so is so often free to combo heavy characters. To prevent them from being OP they will still have huge hurtboxes, bad mobility and generally bad recoveries/no projectile (DDD is an exception...but his frame data is awful to compensate).

2) Projectile spammers all have horrible issues with being rushed down. All projectile users need better options to deal with rushdowns. To keep them from being OP they'll have low damage close up attacks, bad combo options.

3)Rushdown types generally body heavies and projectile spammers and have no counter but other rush down types. Should get fixed by #1 and #2.

Over homogenizing the characters is a serious concern. But if it's done right we should stay free of that. I would like to see the devs look to smooth out all 70:30 and 65:35 matchups. The whole projectile vrs. heavy vrs. rushdown design does not have those character types on even footing currently.

Heavies and projectile based character mains shouldn't have to choose between playing a huge uphill battle or switching off of their mains just because an opposing character type shows up. And at the same time heavy and projectile matchups shouldn't be free for rush down combo types.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Yeah, rushdowns really do dominate the meta hard in every Smash game. They beat the hell out of zoners/defensive characters and heavies and usually don't have a lot of trouble killing, so the only way to combat them is by maining/carrying a pocket rushdown character yourself to deal with these matchups. If you ask me, the rushdown characters should have less defensive capabilities than the others (say, weaker shield) in exchange for their insane offense. Or alternatively, make the heavies and defensive zoners stronger and/or have more defensive capability. Or maybe I'm wrong, and rushdown characters will always be top tier because it's Smash Bros and of course they are.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Sakurai is balancing the characters pretty much solely with FFAs in mind, which is seemingly why he's so opposed to buffing the heavies and nerfing the speedy rushdown top tiers. Diddy was the exception to the rule.

But they buffed Charizard......

 

[Avokha]

Well just FYI, Sakurai stated a little while back that he has a team of playtesters that he believes could place decently in tournaments, and that this team is influential to balancing. He also stated that balance is also somewhat influenced by opinions found on the internet (AKA us).

 

[Luig]

So whiny posts on subreddits actually do influence balancing?

 

[TheSuperiorOne]

Because clearly they don't understand how to do that one job they have.
I just don't understand how every patch seems to create more problems than they fix. Besides Diddy on launch, everyone else felt perfectly fine, sure some buffs and debuffs were needed here and there, but at this point to what end? I feel like the only way to enjoy Smash is to keep up with the Meta. Keeping up with a Meta in a fighting game sounds like you've already messed up in making a good fighting game.

I'll just quote Leffen for you:
"Let's just get one person to do all the nerfs. You know how we tried to make everyone equal in Brawl and it still didn't work? Let's just get one person to nerf all the characters and make them all shallow. Do that, and you'll get to keep your job for one more week."

 

[Deleted member 269706]

How do people keep forgetting that these patches aren't designed with the competitive 1v1 games in mind? When they patch the characters, its to make them more balanced in every aspect, classic mode, free for alls, teams, etc. I mean maybe Ganon and Zard arent the best in 1v1s but if they got any more buffs, how OP would they be in other modes of the game? It's like you guys forget what Smash Bros was originally intended to be...oh wait-

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

How do people keep forgetting that these patches aren't designed with the competitive 1v1 games in mind? When they patch the characters, its to make them more balanced in every aspect, classic mode, free for alls, teams, etc. I mean maybe Ganon and Zard arent the best in 1v1s but if they got any more buffs, how OP would they be in other modes of the game? It's like you guys forget what Smash Bros was originally intended to be...oh wait-

Yeah, but the way the game was originally intended is gay and boring Kappa

 

[FrankTheStud]

ZeRo seems to do fine with maining Diddy. It's not like he won Evo with 1/1/1/1 1.0.9 (pre buff, post nerf) Diddy.

This is coming from a guy who has mained Mario in this game from the code-demo, and has never recieved any buff (or nerf) by the hand of Sakurai. Sakurai goes to tournaments PERSONALLY in Japan and literally takes notes on what he sees, and changes things he believes need fixing or a change. (Hitbox troubles galore in this game).

I'm personally happy this game is being updated, because if it weren't, we'd have Pac dropping hydrants through floors, Peach unable to play on For Glory, Yoshi with 0 lag time on any moves, Meta Knight with half a sword, Wii Fit with no hitboxes, Bowserside in full effect, and no DLC stages or characters.

When you calm down, see Cranky and take his advice. He'll be waiting for you in my signature below.

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

ZeRo seems to do fine with maining Diddy. It's not like he won Evo with 1/1/1/1 1.0.9 (pre buff, post nerf) Diddy.

This is coming from a guy who has mained Mario in this game from the code-demo, and has never recieved any buff (or nerf) by the hand of Sakurai. Sakurai goes to tournaments PERSONALLY in Japan and literally takes notes on what he sees, and changes things he believes need fixing or a change. (Hitbox troubles galore in this game).

I'm personally happy this game is being updated, because if it weren't, we'd have Pac dropping hydrants through floors, Peach unable to play on For Glory, Yoshi with 0 lag time on any moves, Meta Knight with half a sword, Wii Fit with no hitboxes, Bowserside in full effect, and no DLC stages or characters.

When you calm down, see Cranky and take his advice. He'll be waiting for you in my signature below.

Very well said, as a Diddy main I was initially really pissed off about Diddy's second nerf, but after looking closer at the situation and seeing that Diddy is still quite a great character (Top 5 still in my opinion) I shut up and just put in work with nerfed diddy

 

[FrankTheStud]

Very well said, as a Diddy main I was initially really pissed off about Diddy's second nerf, but after looking closer at the situation and seeing that Diddy is still quite a great character (Top 5 still in my opinion) I shut up and just put in work with nerfed diddy

Thank you! Diddy is still a very good character. To be honest, I feel like this game has the potential to be the most balanced game in Smash history. I'm hoping that eventually there will be no "bad" characters, and just certain characters who do better than others in certain situations/matchups.

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

Thank you! Diddy is still a very good character. To be honest, I feel like this game has the potential to be the most balanced game in Smash history. I'm hoping that eventually there will be no "bad" characters, and just certain characters who do better than others in certain situations/matchups.

It probably is the most balanced Smash game, as it stands, which is pretty impressive considering roster size although I'd like for it to be more balanced
Smash 64 might be more balanced maybe? Idk I have hardly played that one, either way its still only 12 characters
Melee more balanced? Hell no
Brawl More balanced? Hell ****ing no

 

[Xzsmmc]

Clearly someone who has no idea what they're doing, because **** like this...

is utterly inexcusable.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Clearly someone who has no idea what they're doing, because **** like this...

is utterly inexcusable.

Exactly why patches are necessary. Imagine having this in the game for the next 8 years.
Also, do you know the cause of that problem? Does Luma gain the knockback scaling of the move the opponent is charging along with his own base knockback + rage?

 

[Avokha]

So whiny posts on subreddits actually do influence balancing?

I'm afraid they do But I'd think it'd take a bit more than just some Reddit posts to change game balance, the playtesters are the main advisors when it comes to balancing. In fact, it's much more likely that japanese players have a greater say in balancing, since their opinions are much more likely to reach Sakurai's ears.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I'm afraid they do But I'd think it'd take a bit more than just some Reddit posts to change game balance, the playtesters are the main advisors when it comes to balancing. In fact, it's much more likely that japanese players have a greater say in balancing, since their opinions are much more likely to reach Sakurai's ears.

We also have to trust Sakurai's game development knowledge. Nintendo hosts all sorts of tournaments, I'm sure Sakurai and his team attend many of them and take notes on things that seem fishy or incorrect. Reddit users need to be told Cranky's advice and ignored.

 

[V_T]

Clearly someone who has no idea what they're doing, because **** like this...

is utterly inexcusable.

This would never actually happen in a real game though. not saying Luma doing things during shieldbreak/ hitstun isn't stupid but that's just a benefit of being a puppet character.