Which changes would you add to 1.0.8 Ike?

[san.]

This is more of a mental note for my thoughts on Ike's current moves. I think Ike is pretty good now and only needs a few tweaks to some rather underwhelming moves.


Needed changes: You can pretty much play at high level and never use any of these moves.

Dsmash: At 13 frames, it's slow, short, and difficult to hit with, but it's strong. I think it needs 2-3 of the following:

• 3 frames faster startup. Most dsmashes come out fast, but are pretty punishable if blocked
  
• Add many more lingering frames to both hits
• Increase the hitbox size and make it hit below a bit better.
  
• Decrease end lag
• Add an even more horizontal angle

Dsmash needs a lot of changes for it to be a viable option in more situations. It's just way too difficult to hit with it. It can even be much faster with a slight damage decrease. This will make it good at the edge.

Usmash: For the slowest upsmash in the game (or 2nd now that Lucas is out), 17 damage is on the weak side. The sourspot also activates at bad times. It's also pretty unsafe now that it doesn't slide people off platforms. Upsmash needs 2-3 of these:

• Remove the sourspot, let it hit airborne opponents
  
• Increase damage 17%->19%, slightly reduce knockback
• Reduce end lag / IASA
• Improved startup (would rather have the other changes)
• Add bonus shield damage

Usmash is pretty alright when it hits, but the sourspot really screws with its trapping ability. It's too slow to catch someone by surprise, too.

Fsmash: The sweetspot is indeed strong, but it has so many sourspots that it doesn't even matter most of the time. So many fsmashes outranges this attack that it's pretty funny as well

• Remove the sourspots, at least the one at max distance
• Improve startup by a few frames
• Improve IASA by a few frames
• Add bonus shield damage

There were times where a partially charged fsmash couldn't kill over 100 on medium-weight characters. The sourspots just make this a weak move most of the time. It doesn't need to kill at 30% either, so it doesn't need an increase on the sweetspot.

Aether:
I think aether would be a little too strong/gimmicky if we were able to grab it by the reverse edge. I think these changes would help:

• Decrease startup by 4-5 frames for all versions
  
• Increase horizontal movement, around 75-100% more distance
  
• Decrease endlag
• Add a small shockwave hit at the end that deals low %.

It would be nice to have some followup potential if someone is actually hit by this laggy move onstage. Aether did not transition with the quicker cast very well. It's good that this move is spikable, too.

Counter:
It was recently buffed, but still pales in comparison to the likes of Roy's. At least 2 of the following

• Improve startup to 6 frames for all versions. Increase the duration by 2 frames so it lasts until the same time period.
  
• Improve counter multiplier by 0.1x for all versions
  
• Improve minimum % by 1 for all versions

This will make it a good counter, but still not the best by far. It will be slightly faster than all of his aerials.

Quick Draw:
This was also buffed so it can actually hit and recover more easily, but the reward is still garbage:

• Revert damage back to Brawl: +3% on default. +2% on close combat. +4% on unyielding blade
• Less ending lag and self hitlag from the sword slash
• Decrease charge time, but have a time limit for how long quick draw can be held.

This will allow quick draw to be more offensive and decrease stalling. Indefinite hold is dumb on attacks like this and Sonic's spindash. I think that removing freefall may make it too good, but that's an option as well if you want to make Ike one of the best in the game.

These won't change his viability very much, since they're just making niche moves usable in more situations and giving him some quality of life improvements. It's nothing like bair's or fair's buffs. Everything else is pretty good already.

Also, for ALL HEAVIES:
Jump squat: 7(and 6)->5 frames.
7 frame jump squats are dumb and make heavies feel very clunky for no reason. There are already characters with 3 frame jump squats.


Making good moves even better (nitpicking, these aren't really needed at all):

Jab1: 4->3 frames, Brawl IASA frames to shield
Jab3: 5 damage -> 7 damage. Less endlag. All sword hits should be relatively powerful.
Utilt: Slightly less endlag. You can just air dodge into the ground and punish it lol. It should at least revert to neutral in that situation.
Uair: Either +1% damage or add a 13-14% sweestpot during the middle of the attack
Bair: Much better IASA frames in the air. It is as laggy as dair in the air.
Dair: Give it a tiny sourspot that lasts a few frames. Doesn't need a massive one, but one that makes sense for the animation.
Nair: Faster startup by 2 frames. It doesn't have as much of a range advantage in this game as before.
Eruption(and furious eruption): Uncharged damage +3%. Keep the maximum damage the same.
Standing grab: Disable halting all momentum when initiating.

Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, Jab2, dash attack, throws: Perfect.

 

[Mario766]

Definitely jab 1 frame 3 and F-Smash/U Smash changes.

Aether reverse ledge grab is a dream for me that I would love to see but isn't necessary. Dair needs something that lingers to make up for the pitiful spike box it has. The hitbox is now right around the tip of the blade to spike. It used to be a really high risk high reward spike in Brawl, now it's almost useless.

I also wouldn't mind if they made down throw into a better kill option with slightly better KBG. Up throw is preferred right now for combos anyways, they could give down throw better KBG and it would only help Ike.

 

[Routa]

If you ask me Unyielding Blade needs somekind of buff. I mean it is worthless atm. They could remove the freefall state only from Unyielding Blade (I think it would put it in the same lvl as Quick Draw and Close Combat), so it could be useful.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Expanding on my post from another topic:

1) Aether Reverse Ledge Grab. Because Mario's cape is a jerk.

-I don't think it would be too much if Ike could do this. It also particularly important for Aether Dive: that thing should be our go to for recovery, but its not. Its a pain to deal with if you end up under the stage, largely for this reason. Its a weird, unneeded nerf.

2) Jab 1 Frame 3. Or Frame 2, balance it out by reducing Jab 3 knockback if you must.

-Ike really needs his fast CQC option back. So many characters with fast Dtilts or the like. If we can't have the canceling goodness from Brawl, at least let us have the speed.

3) Speed up Dsmash's hits. Lower base knockback to even it out if you must, not like its a kill move we use.

-I just want this thing to be a good anti-roll move. Speed up both hits, add lingering hitboxes maybe. It doesn't need to be a kill move at the same time, I just want it to be a good "get off me" move.

4) Add lingering frames to Dair, make the meteor box the entire sword instead of the tip

-Fairly self evident. Dair got nerfed to pieces between Brawl and SSB4. Improved landing lag helps a bit, but its still not a good move.

--- Above is important, below is just nice to have ---

5) Add more lingering frames to Uair. Like 1-2 at the start.

-I feel it should catch airdodges better. 1-2 frames at the start would also mean more reliable comboing.

6) More active Counter frames

-Self evident.

7) Reduced time on Quick Draw between stopping and swinging, add 1-2% more damage

-Its pretty good when its CQC right now, but default QD could use some love. CQC would get the damage buff, QD and UB would get the frame data buffs as well. Don't feel that it needs less recovery, we shouldn't be comboing after it. I think it should be a valid tech chase option though.

8) Add a larger hitbox to the back hit of Usmash.

-Usmash needs something for sure. I remember it having a much larger hitbox in the back during Brawl, which is something I miss. Maybe remove the sourspot difference + add a few lingering frames to the move. If its going to be that laggy, it should be pretty great once it gets moving. Another interesting potential buff would be to have Ike's hurtbox lowered even more, letting it be a better anti-air option.

9) Give us back Eruption's super armour

-Self explanatory.

10) Let Unyielding Blade have super armour while charging in the air

-So close to being a valid custom move option. This one small change would help a lot and let it be usable for certain match ups, particularly when using Aether Drive as well.

 

[Xuan Wu]

You really covered everything that would further benefit Ike without him becoming too over-centralizing. I could not have said them better myself. The balancing team definitely needs to see this.

Anyway, for me...

+ F-air damage output: 12% --> 13%

The 1.0.4. update was able to restore B-air to its former glory. Is a 1% damage increase to a slower aerial too much to ask?

+ U-air damage output: 11% --> 12%

It did 14% in SSBB, but I think a 3% damage reduction is a bit too much.

+ D-air damage output raised from 15% to 16% upon successful connection of the meteor hitbox, or give back its weaker lingering hitboxes. (nitpicking)

Wasn't Roy designed to be the character whose attributes in speed and power establish a sort of medium to those of Marth's and Ike's? Then why does Roy's D-air also inflict 15% when sweet-spotted? Ragnell is huge in comparison lol!

+ Slightly increased range on F-smash, along with faster start-up and the weak hitbox removed.

I remember seeing a gif floating around here that shows Falcon's F-smash out-ranging Ike's, which doesn't make any sense. Ike has a freaking sword!

+ Weak hitbox removed on U-smash.

U-smash is amazing as a frame trap; however, it really feels like a slap to the face when foes are surviving it past 120% due to that dang sour-spot.

+ Counter damage multiplier: 1.2x --> 1.25x

The knockback buff from an earlier patch was nice, but for a character of Ike's design you would at least think it should inflict more damage than Marth's and Lucina's. Roy's Counter has a damage multiplier of 1.35x, and that is even more powerful than Shulk's.

+ Jab combo damage output: 11% --> 12% (possibly nitpicking)

Going from 16% in SSBB along with no more cancellability is a huge deal. It still bothers me how Shulk shares a very similar animation for his Jab combo but is stronger than Ike's despite the former being much scrawnier in appearance lol.

My wishlist hasn't changed too much, but I have recently began to tire of the sour-spots in Ike's smashes. I do not understand why he even has them to begin with. They are much better suited to the designs of Marth and Roy.

^-^

 

[Linkmario00]

What I'd really like to see are faster smashes. They're so slow they're not even good for hard reads and they're not so powerful (Look at Ganondorf smashes for example, faster and more powerful). Another good thing would be Aether reverse ledge grab, but maybe that would make our edgeguarding as good as Shiek's. Also a faster jab would be greatly appreciated. But at the end Ike is now a pretty solid character even without these things, so I'll not complain if he'll remain unchanged in future patchel

 

[Maik93]

All of these changes sound already good...
What I would like:

Quick Draw - important
Remove the freefall after usage in the air. I mean we have decide how we are going to recover when we are launched and with that Change would make our recovery much more unpredictable. Btw why do Ryu/Fox/Falco have that and we don't?

Aether - important
Some more super armor Frames would be appreciated, maybe during the whole time Ike is moving upwards.
And something to resist push-boxes.

Eruption - nice to have
Make super armor come out a bit earlier, I don't think uncharged Eruption should have it but maybe 1/3 or 1/2 charged.

Counter - nice to have
I would like faster Startup but don't cut it's ending - basically what san already said

Nair - important
Make it come out faster so we actually have a chance to escape juggles.

Uair - nice to have
More lingering hitboxes so that if your opponent doesn't dodge it perfectly he'll get hit.

Dair - semi-important
Give it back it's brawl state in terms of hitboxes. I work way to hard for my spikes...

Utilt - nice to have
1-2 Frames faster so it becames a better kill Option

Usmash - important
Remove sourspots and increase shield damage

Fsmash - important
Remove tipper sourspot and increase shield damage and push -safe on shield maybe XD-

Dsmash - important
Faster but cut it's power

Throws - nice to have
Maybe make Dthrow kill a bit earlier -the rest do what they are supposed to-

I'm happy with:
Jab1-3, Ftilt, Dtilt, Fair, Bair, Dash Attack -so good-, grabs,

 

[doom dragon 105]

I am surprised to not hear anyone mention his grab range. It's pretty awful and if it got buffed it would make the experience so much more enjoyable

 

[Mario766]

It's only his standing grab that is the problem. Everything else has pretty good range.

 

[Arrei]

We've already received more buffs than I imagined we'd get, so at this point the only things I really want is something to make Dair and Dsmash useful. Now that dash attack actually has use as a chase and kill move, Dsmash alone remains as the move with no discernible use, while Dair just... remains bad. So for Dair, I'd like something I said previously to happen, for it to receive either much quicker startup to compensate for its puny hitbox, to extend the spike hitbox to the entire blade, or to get its lingering hitboxes back, so it can at least do something effectively. For Dsmash, I'd keep it as is but increase its reach, but that's quite unlikely so I'd be cool with it being adjusted to just work like Marth's, lowering its damage but vastly speeding it up. That back hit is just way too slow. Of course, the best scenario would be to get one like Dedede's, a reasonably quick disjointed swipe on both sides at once.


As for Quick Draw going into helplessness, I'd actually like something different. I'm of the mind that Ike's recovery doesn't need to be so totally strong when a lot of characters have no or extremely poor horizontal recoveries. So then what of Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm? Well, it actually vexes me very much that those don't send them into free fall when characters like poor old Captain Falcon barely go anywhere with their side Bs and end up in free fall for the trouble, but at the same time I don't really want to see Captain Falcon charging from the edge of the screen to the ledge with a giant Raptor Boost, so... nerf Fox and Falco! Make their side specials send them into free fall again just like they did before Sm4sh. For how fast those recoveries are with absolutely no charge time, unpunishable endlag and how far they go, who the bloody hell decided to make them even more overpowered with no free fall?

 

[Maik93]

If I may add one more Thing:
Make an offstage aether kill the enemy first aka. aethercide
That would give us the needed respect offstage

 

[Trueblade]

Standing grab buff and sourspot removal on fsmash and usmash is all I'd want aside from sword beams on every move.

I'm not so sure about Aether killing first. I can see some people throwing a fit over that.

 

[AN(M)ist]

The main thing I want removed is those senseless front frames little above and below ike's quickdraw. Or maybe make ike able to angle his qd swing so he has a better chance of hitting those areas.

 

[Starfall11]

I feel asking to buff U-smash is a bit greedy to be honest guys. It has annoying sour spots that would be nice to buff, but it's still one of Ike's best kill tools. And I would argue, one of the best U-smashes in the game. Although painfully slow, it kills fairly easy with rage. And it catches rolls extremely well. It's a tool you have to read with though. Definitely not reactable. I think it's fine as is, except possibly sour spots.

I would love it if we could jump out of quickdraw like Ike in Project M (For those who have played it). It would make Ike's mobility absolutely insane and probably make him one of the best characters in the game. At least avoid the auto-fall out of QD, and let us jump after it like Fox and Falco's phantasms.

Ike's bair is insane, asking for it to be buffed is also greedy. I think his other aerials could use some very slight buffs. Especially his fair, the sour spots and spike hitbox make no sense on that move.

Personally, D-smash is awful. Probably one of the worst d-smashes in the entire game. I kid you not. I have hated Ike's D-smash forever. If it was one hit instead of two and had less endlag it would be more practical. It is a move that almost never used at high level play. Not even at mid-level play. It could use some huge buffs or it will never be used, period.

 

[Arrei]

One of the first things freshly hatched Ikes learn, with eggshell still on their rippling biceps, is to never Dsmash.

 

[LordShade67]

One of the first things freshly hatched Ikes learn, with eggshell still on their rippling biceps, is to never Dsmash.

Unless it's PM Ike DSmash. That one's actually useful.

 

[Starfall11]

PM Ike D-smash is still not that great. On a high level it is still rarely used. Watch Ally, Metroid, Strong Bad, etc. You see it almost never to be honest.

 

[LordShade67]

PM Ike D-smash is still not that great. On a high level it is still rarely used. Watch Ally, Metroid, Strong Bad, etc. You see it almost never to be honest.

Well, I mean in the fact that you only have to swing behind you if you WANT, unlike Brawl/Smash 4 Ike. Even so, I still forget it exists. *shrug*

 

[Mario766]

PM Ike D-Smash is match-up specific.

 

[Xuan Wu]

With F-tilt weakened, I think there may now actually be a use for D-smash. ^-^

We could use it as punish tool on the ground. Before 1.0.8. there was very little reason to use it since the damage output and knockback for the first hit was the same as F-tilt. Now, D-smash KOs noticeably faster than F-tilt, which means we still have a 14% move for horizontal KOs. It is also helpful that the first hit comes out decently quick. I just wish the knockback had a more horizontal trajectory, similar to the second hit of Link's D-smash.

F-tilt being faster now makes it even better for spacing on the ground.

 

[Mario766]

You can do an instant dash attack for better kill power.

 

[Arrei]

I'm also fairly sure Ftilt still possesses better kill capacity than Dsmash's front hit. Not to mention Ftilt reaches farther and is so much less punishable because using Dsmash is almost equivalent to using Fsmash behind you. And Utilt is still faster than Dsmash, reaches almost the same distance, is less punishable, deals the same damage on the sweetspot, has lingering frames, and kills easier.

 

[Xuan Wu]

You can do an instant dash attack for better kill power.

True. That would definitely be useful at mid-range. But what if I am trying to punish opponents' mistakes when they happen to be very close to me? Yes, I can use Dash Attack, but by doing so I would either run right through them or hit with the weaker hitbox.

I'm also fairly sure Ftilt still possesses better kill capacity than Dsmash's front hit. Not to mention Ftilt reaches farther and is so much less punishable because using Dsmash is almost equivalent to using Fsmash behind you. And Utilt is still faster than Dsmash, reaches the same distance, is less punishable, deals the same damage on the sweetspot, has lingering frames, and kills earlier.

Yes, Ike has several moves that overshadow D-smash. U-smash, most notably, due to better damage, knockback, and range.

F-tilt is still a good kill move, but I am not sure if I agree with F-tilt killing better than D-smash. I was testing both F-tilt and D-smash in Training Mode just now and I killed Marth with the first hit of D-smash at the third square from the ledge in Coliseum (omega) when he was at 100%; I was unable to get F-tilt to kill at the same spot. I do agree, however, that D-smash is lacking in range, compared to it. And F-tilt still has a better knockback angle.

^-^

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, you're right, Dsmash's first hit does possess some good knockback - practically equal to Bair's. Kills Mario around 19% earlier at the edge compared to Ftilt, around 8% earlier than dash attack.

Still... so punishable.

 

[Mario766]

It'd be something you use extremely rarely. Most of the time when you'd be in those situations your main instinct is to F-Tilt. Training against those thoughts to get the most optimal punish is how you get better at the game.

 

[I4mNoHero]

Honestly the recent patch has been good to Ike. All Ike needs now is a quick-draw cancel with no falling animation if missed. That would be golden.

 

[PyroTakun]

The only real changes I want are for D-Air to get it's lingering hitbox back and for QD to not leave us helpless when Fox/ Falco get to Side-B into Up-B for free.

 

[Silver Forte]

D-air should be reverted to brawl level, lingering hitbox and the whole sword is a meteor.
F-smash needs somethin, its too weak for how slow it is, give it super armor or somethin, more kill power.
more lingering frames for u-air would be useful, be easier to catch dodgers with that.
It'd also be nice if jab was given the brawl damage and speed.
D-smash would be better if you could only do the first hit like in PM. As of right now its too slow for rollers and the only real use it has in punishing oos.

 

[Starfall11]

All we need is Brawl Dair, and no helpless on QD and we're set. Let's not be greedy my friends. I have no sympathy for greed.

 

[Routa]

All we need is Brawl Dair, and no helpless on QD and we're set. Let's not be greedy my friends. I have no sympathy for greed.

#JustIkeThings

 

[Sol0ke]

Brawl Dair and no helpless quick draw seems to be the most wanted.
And I agree, Brawl Dair would be so helpful.

 

[Dr. Bread]

I'd make it so that you can act out of quickdraw instead of attacking every time... but that probably wont happen until the next smash game.

I'd also probably make it so that n-air had less landing lag so you could use it like shulk's n-air.

 

[Romans]

I just want a more active dair and larger standing grab range. That's it.

 

[Mario766]

Up Smash should be returned to Brawl level, where the backswing has stronger damage.