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where does he stand?

darktrickster101

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
52
1. where do you believe charizard stands on the tier list?
2. do you see him becoming competitively viable?
3. do you believe he can handle his bad matchups well enough to have a reasonable chance of winning?
Discuss.
 

RadianB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
223
1. I still think he's the best heavy weight character in the game. Mid Tier atm but can move up to high.
2. Yes. Once more people learn to use him effectively his tournament presence should increase.
3. Yes. I don't think Charizard has any really bad match ups. A few unfavourable, most mostly even and a few favourable.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
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Wichita
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Steeler
I think he's low tier or bottom of mid, around the #30 range

He is viable enough to place top 8 at regionals.

He can definitely handle his worst matchups, you have to be ON POINT with super armor and mobility. It is a huge burden because you are basically asking to parry yourself out of stuff, and you will get ****ed if you mess up. Charizard will be helped a lot if 2 stock is standard because you just need to guess less times to win. 3 stocks is really rough... Really, if you can hang on to stocks to use rage, you can kill anyone at 100%. Charizard benefits immensely from anxious players, but I reckon as the game progresses to a safer, "campier" state, Zard will struggle even more. Any random campy ZSS or Sheik will mess Zard up real bad... I really think Zard is very vulnerable to timeouts.
 

Davregis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
182
No-customs Charizard definitely struggles with too many matchups to be viable. Characters that can outrange, combo, or kill very early tend to have good MUs against this guy-- that's way too many.

Customs Zard now has a free DP out of every combo and probably the best side-b in the game, but still has a bad time with the likes of characters who can both combo and camp ie Yoshi Sheik. I feel that in non-customs Charizard is completely unviable but in customs somewhat better. As Steeler states, his Super Armor is just too important, but missing one will get you stocked very quickly.

best heavy though. maybe dedede but
 
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Strider755

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
204
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Huntsville, AL
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Ike755
3DS FC
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1. where do you believe charizard stands on the tier list?
2. do you see him becoming competitively viable?
3. do you believe he can handle his bad matchups well enough to have a reasonable chance of winning?
Discuss.
Hmm...I think the main reason Lizardon gets such a bad rap among smashers is because of the Flare Blitz noobs. I've figured out how to make him move like a dream. To answer your questions:

1. I believe that Lizardon would stand anywhere from C+ to B+.
2. If people look past his undeserved reputation, I can see this pokemon becoming extremely viable.
3. Matchups mean nothing; it's players that win the game. A strong enough player can handle any bad matchup with any character, and charizard is no exception. Good jabs and aerial combos should be able to rack up plenty of damage, and then a properly timed flare blitz should be enough to finish them off.

As for the latest patch, flare blitz has slightly more recoil now, but I believe that it's worth an extra 1% for a stronger ^throw; the Seismic Toss actually has killing power now.
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
1,765
Location
Charific Valley
3DS FC
1289-9519-4206
1. All bias aside non-customs char would probably sit around mid tier. Customs char could definitely make it into B+ or higher.
2-3. Without customs, no. He just doesn't have the tools do deal with top tier speedsters who can abuse his weaknesses with ease. It's not impossible for char, but the amont of skill you will need to have over your opponent is... pretty rediculous. With customs, he has just enough options to beat these characters, so yes. But he will still need to be on-point.
 

Strider755

Smash Journeyman
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Ike755
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Yes, customs should help A LOT. By the way, which ones should I use? I prefer flare blitz over Dragon Rush for the killing power, but I think I can change my mind. Rock Hurl should be a good idea as well.
 

Godzillionaire

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
138
Location
Florida
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Crit-Hit
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1. Mid tier
2. Absolutely viable. Based lizard hits hard and can do great rushdowns.
3. Yes considering he doesn't have THAT many bad match ups
 

Grizzlpaw

Rawr~ ♪
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
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3DS FC
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Alright, so I've been thinking really hard about this these past few days.

For the sake of any new zard mains out there, I tried to put bias aside and give them the most realistically accurate response I could.

Buut

My inner Zard fanboy wasn't having any of that :glare:
so I've been thinking about the meta at a high level of play, and if Zard can be viable in it.

Prepare yourselves because this can get real rambly real quick

Where do you think Charizard stands on the tier list

This is the short answer to what I'm about to say. Customs off, Charizard is a solid mid tier character that takes substantial player skill and knowledge to be played effectively at a higher level of play.

Do you see him being competitively viable

Yes.

Alright, before my fellow zards come at me with blazing pitchforks let me explain.
If a character is unviable, that means that that character has absolutely zero win conditions against a good portion of the cast, especially the top teirs.

Alternatively, an unviable character might have win conditions against most characters so long as the other player plays poorly, but if the other player players flawlessly or near-flawlessly, the unvaible character will have zero chance to win.

Alright, so is charizard unviable?

An easy way to tell is to look at his worst matchup. Does charizard have a win condition against zero suit if the zero suit plays flawlessly?


The answer is no...

IF THE ZERO SUIT PLAYER IS A FLIPPING PSYCHIC

Okay sure, Zero Suit samus has all the tools in the world to deal with zard, if she the zero suit is perfectly on point, she will give us a ton of trouble because her options simply beat ours. But no amount of flawless play will allow her to pick the perfect option every time. Zero suit is a 50/50 character. She puts you in situations where you have few options to avoid a follow up attack, but she still has to guess what you're going to in order to land the next hit. If the charizard player guesses correctly and manages to avoid the follow up, he'll (hopefully) be put in a position where he can gain some momentum against the Zero Suit player.

Zard only needs a few seconds to turn the entire match around. Once he has momentum, he only needs to hit you a few times to put you into K.O. percent. Once he gets Zero Suit there, she'll have to avoid making any slip ups, or she's dead.

Alright, so how can Charizard be viable?

Easy really. Play him like a Heavy. Not like a Speedster!

Speedster characters are all about outplaying the character in front of them. They're faster, safer, and they'll combo you into oblivion if you aren't at the top of your game. Charizard can't do that, which is why some people get frustrated with him and say he's bad. He isn't bad, they're just playing him wrong.

Heavies are all about outplaying the other player! People have habits. They aren't robots, so they will make mistakes. If they don't, mistakes can be forced. Heavies are all about getting a read on the other player and exploiting that player's weaknesses.

Look at charizard. Poor dragon hardly knows what a true combo is. He's got bthrow > fair and... yeah. That.
But Frame Traps. Oh boy. He's got plenty of those.

When you play charizard your goal is to get into the other person's head, because that's where charizard gets most of his follow ups. If you land a B Throw > Fair, don't just stop there. Ask yourself, is the other player aggressive or defensive. If they're aggressive, Fast Fall after the Fair and wait for them to attack your shield. Then grab them again and get off yet another Bthrow combo. If they enemy is aggressive they're probably still trying to find some way to retaliate against you, so punsih that with a dash attack, unless they DI or jump away to safety, that's going to land and pop them into the air again. Now you just did 53% to them, and you have stage control.


Things like that are what charizard is about. Find out what kind of player the opponent is and try to exploit that. Advantages are harder to gain, so make the most of them! Most importantly, be willing to mix up your playstyle to suit both the player, and the character they choose.


(On the defensive end, knowing if your enemy is the type of player to rush directly at you, or bait out an option then punish will help you to escape combo strings and juggles.)



Do you think charizard can handle his bad matchups enough to stand a chance at winning?

Hyup. Remember that ZSS example I gave? You just have to apply something similar to every matchup. Charizard has options that let him punish players extremely hard once he catches on to whatever patterns they have. So find out what kind of player the opponent is, and use that along with whatever matchup knowlege you have to outplay the other guy and win.

Charizard doesn't have any unwinnable matchups... just hard ones.



tl;dr

Charizard is viable. He just takes work.

Unless customs are on, then spam Dragon Rush all day. That move is dum :/

:006:



:006:
 
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MagiusNecros

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
3,176
1. where do you believe charizard stands on the tier list?
2. do you see him becoming competitively viable?
3. do you believe he can handle his bad matchups well enough to have a reasonable chance of winning?
Discuss.
He will stand mid tier or wherever Bowser is for the most part. He can be viable if you play him as a bait and punish heavy character.

If you can get hard reads like a pro you can probably easily win. Or you can spam Dragon Rush all day.

Although I much prefer Blast Burn because the raw power of punishing a mistake and killing things in the 60%-80% range is great.

Since you have 3 jumps and Fly your recovery is decent enough.
 

HeavyLobster

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
2,074
NNID
HeavyLobster43
Generally lowish in customs off. He's not trash in spite of what some people are saying about him, but he's part of the mediocre muddle who do fine vs. most of the cast but get wrecked by a few high tiers and don't do much in tourney because of it. Customs on he's mid-tier, as he gains a number of fine tools to even the odds vs. the better characters in the game, and is semi-viable there. He doesn't have anything too horrible to deal with in customs on to my knowledge, and generally has a chance there, so I think in customs on he can overcome his bad MUs.
 

Handy Man

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
916
Location
SoCal
1. Charizard is a solid mid-tier.

2. Yes. Charizard has to always pay attention to what the opponent is doing, and he relies on reads and punishes for his kills. As long as you can adapt to your opponent and focus on their actions, then there's always a chance of winning. You just gotta be careful and put a lot of effort in.

3. Yes he can, as long as he parries and punishes accordingly. A few matchups like Yoshi and Zero Suit Samus are an uphill battle, but nothing is impossible and there's always a way to win.
 
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