When Sakurai Fails Bowser Twice??

[KromosomY]

Hi guys! I've been away from the Bowser forums since March. I had just wanted to post this up to show some Bowser's problems resulting from collision box reallocation, bad hitbox design and the dreaded SideB's deadzone.

Just demonstrating design flaws this game has. Keep in mind that Super Smash Bros. uses spherical collision boxes in place of traditionally square ones.
So what really happened here?
1. Collision Box Shuffling: 0:07
(Ness's Hurtbox pushed further back)
2. Lousy Hitbox Size & Placement: 0:08
(Smaller than Bowser's character model)
3. Lousy Hitbox Placement & Size: 0:11
(Empty gap between Bowser's Hurtbox & sideB's Hitbox)

 

[Grizzlpaw]

At least Utilt got fixed... but yeah, bowser's hitboxes could use an overhaul. It's annoying when side B literally phases through the opponent

 

[Cronoc]

Even when it comes to utilt, characters are safe if they roll into Bowser's character model. jabs, ftilt, klaw, utilt, even flame breath at extra close range all need polishing. Usmash in the video I'm alright with, it's not as concerning as the former complaints. In the meantime other characters have jabs that hit behind them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[KromosomY]

Usmash in the video I'm alright with, it's not as concerning as the former complaints.

The problem I'm pointing out isn't with the Usmash: It's the fact that Bowser gets the brunt when collision box reallocation happens. Example below:

https://youtu.be/g5m1fFK6L5k?t=118
look at what happens between 2:00-2:02 timeframe. Luigi's collision box swaps from bowser's right to left.

it also happens occasionally for bowser's bair/ftilt and when people roll/perfect pivot into bowser.

 

[Cronoc]

The problem I'm pointing out isn't with the Usmash: It's the fact that Bowser gets the brunt when collision box reallocation happens. Example below:

Ah, you mean that because the game doesn't want characters inside Bowser's character model, it slides them away from Bowser, often in a disadvantageous direction. Yeah, that is annoying too. "Collision box" threw me, I'd rather say character model. Though perhaps the first is more correct.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

When Side B wiffs and homie is right in your grab range.

 

[KromosomY]

I should have probably added a bit more into description about the gamelogic that screwed Bowser over the first couple times in. Updated that in the first post!!

 

[-TAG-]

I can agree with the Slam hitbox size and placement (complete bull when they're standing right in front of his face) but Up-Smash's second hitbox missing rarely does happen to me.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yea, your guys' character needs to be worked on seriously (frame data and hitboxes. But mostly frame data IMO). The frame data for bowser has got to be the most important thing that's holding him back.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Flying slam has an idiotic small spherical hit box that gets you the grab. His hand essentially. Which went right past Ness's body and hurtbox.

That swipe and Bowser's arm do not factor into the equation. It's dumb.

 

[Jerodak]

Friendly tip, if the point of this thread is to get the dev team to notice it and make changes, it may be more effective to present data in a way likely to inspire cooperation over antagonism.

In the off chance someone does look at it, you don't want to turn them off by appearing like another angry or bitter player. Bashing the team or director probably won't help your chances either. That aside, thanks for putting this together, maybe if there's a careful cataloging of all of Bowser's most glaring non-fundamental issues then he may get some helpful tweaks; keep up the good work.

 

[Cronoc]

J Jerodak I would be surprised if the Japanese balance patch team even knows of smashboards beyond the fact that people here try to assemble all the changes in each patch (if that). I doubt we're in much danger of putting them off.

I whiff klaws all the time, it's especially frustrating to whiff one when it would end the match. I'm alright with a Nintendo-affiliated person knowing that this frustrates me. I don't believe that anything will be done about it because ample time has passed with no action taken in numerous balance patches. What's left to us is to sympathize with each other's frustrations, which I would say is closer to what this thread is about.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

J Jerodak I would be surprised if the Japanese balance patch team even knows of smashboards beyond the fact that people here try to assemble all the changes in each patch (if that). I doubt we're in much danger of putting them off.

I believed in their ignorance of places like Smashboards, but after so many patches, I'm willing to bet they have eyes on every place people are talking about and sharing the game. An example from the most recent patch is the Diddy grab glitch. The problem was discovered with video evidence here on Smashboards. Less than 48 hours after we locked down the causes and details of the glitch, it was announced another patch was coming to fix it. That expediency is pretty suspicious from a company that supposedly "gets its data from For Glory matches".

Another example was Olimar's Order Tackle custom move having an amplifier glitch. That glitch was in the game since launch, but was removed the very next patch after somebody uploaded a video with an explanation.

Now look at Bowser's buffs. They are, Utilt, Dsmash, and Nair. We've complained plenty on these boards about all of those and how Bowser couldn't justify using them. I know I did. Utilt had too much endlag and doesn't hit in front, Dsmash launched too high to kill reasonably, and Nair was...well we complained about everything to do with Nair. I find it suspect that these bad moves were targeted so precisely. No irregular buffs to already decent moves. People use bad moves all the time in For Glory. They would have to have good sources in order to lock down what attacks need to be looked at.

 

[Cronoc]

I believed in their ignorance of places like Smashboards, but after so many patches, I'm willing to bet they have eyes on every place people are talking about and sharing the game. An example from the most recent patch is the Diddy grab glitch. The problem was discovered with video evidence here on Smashboards. Less than 48 hours after we locked down the causes and details of the glitch, it was announced another patch was coming to fix it. That expediency is pretty suspicious from a company that supposedly "gets its data from For Glory matches".

Another example was Olimar's Order Tackle custom move having an amplifier glitch. That glitch was in the game since launch, but was removed the very next patch after somebody uploaded a video with an explanation.

Now look at Bowser's buffs. They are, Utilt, Dsmash, and Nair. We've complained plenty on these boards about all of those and how Bowser couldn't justify using them. I know I did. Utilt had too much endlag and doesn't hit in front, Dsmash launched too high to kill reasonably, and Nair was...well we complained about everything to do with Nair. I find it suspect that these bad moves were targeted so precisely. No irregular buffs to already decent moves. People use bad moves all the time in For Glory. They would have to have good sources in order to lock down what attacks need to be looked at.

I agree that they aren't getting their data exclusively from online stuff. However, the most obvious reactions to glitches/exploits found by the community involved youtube videos detailing the problem, and often included twitter campaigns to make these problems known. Zero himself tried to mobilize people on twitter to reach out to Nintendo employees about the Diddy glitch. As for specific move changes, I think it's more reasonable for that to have come from Sakurai and co's interactions and testing groups with the Japanese competitive scene, and possibly tournament footage, rather than any text discussion.

If we were trying to get specific fixes for Bowser, it would seem that the best way to go about it would be to produce a youtube video compiling them all (with multiple examples of each), and publicize it as much as possible on twitter and reddit (which will feed back to twitter), hoping that it makes it's way to Nintendo's/Sakurai's attention. Each of Bowser's faults would need to be illustrated clearly and without room for debate.

Edit: actually, (surprise surprise) I like my idea here. Maybe we could make it a community effort to capture footage of various issues and compile this video. Maybe a new thread is in order. If I'm not too lazy, maybe later tonight.

 

[Zethoro]

Just make dash slash the standard side-B and we good.

 

[KromosomY]

Just make dash slash the standard side-B and we good.

That may probably hurt Bowser more than actually help. His default sideB works as a good landing lag cancel into idle state and many, many things.

It should be sufficient if the overall moveset of Bowser's hitboxes were polished.