When is it worth it to ASC?

[HK_Spadez]

Say I get an up tilt. Is it worth it to ASC before i jump to follow up? Or is it just as fast to just jump after them.

@ Hylian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMcDTAnqe7Y

^ had a question regarding that too for example. would it not have worked if u just went dash atk -> down smash. instead of dash atk -> asc -> down smash?

Just not sure when is the proper time to ASC and when its unecessary

 

[HK_Spadez]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9k0jjIw9u4

another question is at 3:33

@ Risky does Fair- > ASC and lands. is this faster than just a shffl fair?

sorry if this already been discussed but just kinda confused on what I should do and I noticed I dont ASC enough and was wanted to check where its most beneficial before trying to get myself to do it.

 

[drsusredfish]

dash attk>dsmash works yes and dash attack >asc>dsmash works somtimes too but the the asc version gives you more options to work with to mix up the opponents reactions.

another thing people probably don't know is ASC can dodge standing grabs sometimes becauase the animation goes into the z-axis.

when you shffl you still have to l-cancel and though the lag is small with l-canceling its still there. ASC makes it so you get no landing lag becuase you are in normal fall before you hit the ground. The main thing you need to consider is the timing of your fair. If you are doing a rising fair its best to ASC. This will let you do a second aerial attack in the same jump.

Try short hop fair>asc>fair>lcancel

rising attack >asc. falling attack close to the ground > l-canceling. all his aerials pretty much follow this rule except dair.

 

[Risky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9k0jjIw9u4

another question is at 3:33

@ Risky does Fair- > ASC and lands. is this faster than just a shffl fair?

sorry if this already been discussed but just kinda confused on what I should do and I noticed I dont ASC enough and was wanted to check where its most beneficial before trying to get myself to do it.

If you're doing an aerial and don't have; a different B move planned after you land the aerial, or are not right next to the ground to L-cancel said aerial, you should ALWAYS ASC it.

If you DA -> ASC -> Dsmash instead of DA -> Dsmash, it will allow you to react better on hit/shield, and is less committal in general. You have to make sure you're on point to follow up though. Basically it's unnecessary to ASC it but not irrelevant either.

 

[HK_Spadez]

thanks for clearing it up dude. love ur lucario btw. so swag

 

[Risky]

Really? I appreciate that a lot. I haven't been playing him much lately, either lacking confidence in myself or the character in general. I'll try to make it to the SG weekly and scrap a little.

I'm glad you at least watched the match against Wolf as I was pretty excited to beat him, and he usually dumps everyone.

 

[HK_Spadez]

yeah man. i love ur neutral B and grab game. I definitely need to do those more on lucario. When i feel up to it i'll try to record some casuals or something and post it for critque

that last stock against wolf's link. the shoryuken wave land was so great.

So how come the lack in confidence of the character? Is there anything in particular that cripples lucario too hard?

 

[Risky]

I think Usmash with platforms is a huge part of his game or should be. Very easy to combo, and it can set up interesting kills like landing on the platform and killing early with a charged FP.

Crouch canceling or good OOS options beat Lucario. That, and pressure. I haven't faced that many players that have really pressured me but some matchups I feel are in the 70/30 area. Mario/Squirtle/Zelda come to mind. They're extremely hard to get into a combo and also to continue comboing due to their size/weight combination and their defensive options. But instead of working on the matchups themselves since they're so unfun for me to play I try to find other characters. A few bad matchups shouldn't dissuade me though as every character has some bad ones (actually idk if Zelda has any) so I'm not going to drop him. Nobody ever likes playing against me so that's a good sign.

MK is also very annoying.

 

[Hylian]

You guys missed the point of the ASC.

I did DA -> ASC -> DSMASH because the combo would have been impossible otherwise. The entire reason the combo is cool is because of the ASC. If you space dash attack at the shoulder than your ASC will hit your opponent cancelling out the knockback from dash attack meaning you can DA someone at 150% and still combo into dsmash. It's a guaranteed dsmash at every % and makes this combo string reliable because you don't need to worry about their DI or % because the AS just pulls them down into the dsmash. The hard part is hitting your opponent with the inside of your dash attack so that the ASC actually clips them.

 

[HK_Spadez]

Thanks for clearing that up man. Makes a lot of sense and an incredible find.

@ Hylian what do you mean "dash attack at the shoulder though?"

 

[Hylian]

Thanks for clearing that up man. Makes a lot of sense and an incredible find.

@ Hylian what do you mean "dash attack at the shoulder though?"

I just mean space your dash attack so the hitbox activates near the inside of lucarios leg rather than hitting them with the up or the active frames.

 

[Risky]

You guys missed the point of the ASC.

I did DA -> ASC -> DSMASH because the combo would have been impossible otherwise. The entire reason the combo is cool is because of the ASC. If you space dash attack at the shoulder than your ASC will hit your opponent cancelling out the knockback from dash attack meaning you can DA someone at 150% and still combo into dsmash. It's a guaranteed dsmash at every % and makes this combo string reliable because you don't need to worry about their DI or % because the AS just pulls them down into the dsmash. The hard part is hitting your opponent with the inside of your dash attack so that the ASC actually clips them.

So you're telling me if you DA -> ASC and hit them with the ASC hitbox, you can then do your 17 Frame startup Dsmash as a combo without them being able to retaliate.

 

[Hylian]

So you're telling me if you DA -> ASC and hit them with the ASC hitbox, you can then do your 17 Frame startup Dsmash as a combo without them being able to retaliate.

I am telling you this yes. It is glorious.

Edit: Also dsmash hits on frame 12 not 17 lol. Stop looking at smashboards frame threads .

 

[HK_Spadez]

then hook us up with the real frame data! =P

 

[Risky]

I am telling you this yes. It is glorious.

Edit: Also dsmash hits on frame 12 not 17 lol. Stop looking at smashboards frame threads .

I looked at it in Brawlbox, not Smashboards. I have yet to be able to have it "combo" in training mode.

 

[Zoa]

What HK_Spadez said. I've been looking for Luc frame data since 2.0. Think we could get the hook up, Hylian?

 

[HK_Spadez]

im actually having problems making it combo as well. trying it on 100% mewtwo

 

[Hylian]

I can't actually confirm it works on every character, just the ones I've tried(DK for example).

I get most of my frame data from asking people in the PMBR who are good with it. I can at some point view the frame data it's just kind of tedious so I'll do it when I have a lot of free time and make a thread maybe. Risky if you viewed it in brawlbox you probably didn't factor in FSM's if the move has any, or they are located somewhere you didn't see etc etc.

 

[ZaloMonkada]

hylian, pretty sure that its unsafe. they can act in between the asc and the down smash (it is a small window though, so its still an excellent option)

 

[Darkgun]

Started to say: "17 dsmash frames wat." Admittedly I've been using an one or two outdated threads for most of my info, but timing-wise, everything seems to line up, and if I am not mistaken, the only change to timing Lucario has received since 2.5 is the startup on Double Team

The ASC knockback stop has been something I've accidentally performed a few times, though I'll confess that I never really get a followup since I am as surprised as my opponent is when it happens. I've been thinking around grabs and easier followups out of ASC tricks like that, but dsmash? That's awesome.

On topic, I personally use ASC to reset grounded combos, particularly on faster fallers and opponents who happen to DI utilt or dtilt towards Lucario (and not be CCing, of course). Also works well if you cross-up a shielded opponent with ftilt.

Oh! While I'm thinking on it, I stumbled across it a while back and kind of pushed it off to the side, but Lucario can immediately go from ASC to shield by holding any direction and shield during the startup (Holding Up doesn't seem to work, but it may with tap jump enabled.) I didn't realize the offensive use for this until watching aMSa perform turn around grabs out of ASC.

 

[HK_Spadez]

so how many frames exactly does it take to magic series into AS and then cancel it?

 

[Darkgun]

so how many frames exactly does it take to magic series into AS and then cancel it?

ASC is 13 frames, and unless I'm mistaken, there is no difference between OHC>ASC and ASC. Though, if there is, it is a single frame in favor of Lucario. As a nice note, the hitbox for AS becomes active immediately.

 

[Risky]

Oh! While I'm thinking on it, I stumbled across it a while back and kind of pushed it off to the side, but Lucario can immediately go from ASC to shield by holding any direction and shield during the startup (Holding Up doesn't seem to work, but it may with tap jump enabled.) I didn't realize the offensive use for this until watching aMSa perform turn around grabs out of ASC.

This is pretty sick. I can see a lot of applications already, if you can Usmash immediately it seems great. Loading my game right now and gonna check it out.

@ Hylian Yeah probably. I'm not sure how to parse all of the data I'm seeing yet as BrawlBox can be pretty awkward. Mostly using it to check hitbox sizes and iframes on stuff.

I imagine these combos actually would work on a lot of cast as long as they don't have a fast enough option to punish it, the window to do so isn't that large and they have to be ready to do it (or mashing). So basically a Shine or a fast Nair.

 

[HK_Spadez]

ASC is 13 frames, and unless I'm mistaken, there is no difference between OHC>ASC and ASC. Though, if there is, it is a single frame in favor of Lucario. As a nice note, the hitbox for AS becomes active immediately.

if asc is 13 frames. is it really worth it.. for example... to fair -> asc -> fair? or just fair fair.

 

[Zoa]

Huh. I saw DrinkingFood mention ASC is nine frames. Is that ASC in a magic series, or just by itself?

 

[ZaloMonkada]

if asc is 13 frames. is it really worth it.. for example... to fair -> asc -> fair? or just fair fair.

It definitely is. You can shorthop double fair if you asc, but you can't if you don't.

 

[HK_Spadez]

It definitely is. You can shorthop double fair if you asc, but you can't if you don't.

makes a lot of sense when u put it that way lol