When does playing against a better player become counterproductive?

[pollo20x6]

I've heard the saying go "it's better to play against good people and lose as it is the best way to get better".
And to some extent it's true. Like training with weighted clothes, when you playing someone worse, it all feels much easier.
But at the same time, I can't help but feel that by playing the same person, your adapting to that specific individuals play style.
For example, I was playing a Ness player who was giving me a harder than usual time. Normally I have no problem with Ness players, but this guy had mastered his f-airs and b-airs. However, as an overall Ness player, he sucked. He would only use his backthrow, even at low %. He just mastered those two moves which were keeping him afloat.
After playing him 8 times, I felt anymore could be counterproductive. When I could be practicing against more well-rounded players, I was doing the equivalent of working out the same muscle but ignoring the rest.
And I feel like this can be applied to any other better player. They all have their own style that, once you figure out, did it make you a better player?
Or are you now a master of beating this one particular player but overall you'd get stuck the moment a player of equal skill comes in and surprises you with something the other player with the same skill didn't do?

 

[Ussi]

Its when the other player isn't learning anything besides how to be a punching bag.

What the better player should do is use characters he isn't as good with to even the playing field while letting him play without mentally holding back. If this doesn't work, then the worse person needs to learn the basics... So then should play dittos to learn the basics at an accelerated pace.

As for playing against different playstyles, that just comes with experience and time. Make friends with a bunch of different peepz to play against different playstyles.

 

[GSM_Dren]

It becomes counterproductive when you aren't learning anything or adapting the way you play. If he kept beating you out with Fairs/Bairs, then you should have adapted with a strategy to overcome it. Saying he sucks otherwise doesn't help the fact that you keep getting caught in the Fair/Bair. Once you do find a way to beat it you can use that for later matches with the same character but different player. The next time you fight a ness that does the same tactic, voila, you already know what to do.

Hopefully these better players are giving you the incentive to step up your game and stop getting caught in the same thing over and over.

 

[AvariceX]

This game isn't fast enough to reach a point where you can't try new things and adapt no matter how much better your opponent is. It's not like Melee where you can be so much faster than your opponent that they don't even get to play and never have a chance to learn anything. Just make sure you are actually trying to learn and if you can't figure out how to deal with something just ask if they have any ideas.

 

[CrazyPerson]

Losing can be a learning experience... but at the same time so can winning and looking back at mistakes. Always hated the term good loss...

Losing is one thing... being slaughtered consistently is another. If epic smasher is to the point where he is pulling out every advanced tactic in the book, and trying to write another one in when I am just trying to implement one of them and he sweeps me stock wise all the time, and I can't get an attack off... odds are the human brain can't absorb all that is going on quickly enough to improve.

Flip side of that is if I am playing a true new comer and I dumb down my game I can't learn anything... and may turn ultra beginner play into habits into instincts which is bad.

If a player is one step ahead of me, where sometimes I can land that combo I have practiced even if I lose by one stock most of the time... chances are I am getting a tad better.

Got to find players around your skill level... problem is that isn't easy to do. I don't know to many people who own this game... I will look into any meet ups once I can, but if they are light years ahead of me I don't think it will help.

 

[dragontamer]

IMO, you should constantly lose against better players until you understand how various actions in this game are unsafe.

For example: SHFFLs in Melee for example are extremely useful and quick, but with the removal of LCancels and the introduction of severe amounts of landing lag in this game... the number of characters who can effectively SHFFL is pretty small in this game. On the other hand, certain characters (ie: Shiek, Mario, Luigi) can SH-FF very effectively with Nair at least.

Keeping track of your own attacks (which ones the better player punishes), and your opponent's attacks (which ones seem unsafe or safe), and learning what is unpunishable or punishable is the essence of getting better.

If you are not learning "what is safe" or "what is unsafe" in every single match, your mind has succumbed to despair. It is better to take a break, maybe come back in a day or two, shake it off and re-enter the learning mindset. For every player it is different, and it is strongly based on your emotions. Sometimes, I need to be told by other players that my mind gets stuck in a rut, so I trust my friends on this one.

Its not sufficient to "just" lose against opponents. You need to learn why you are losing. If your mind is in the gutter from taking too many losses, just take a break and come back when your emotions are more in check.

If your opponent is nice, you might be able to ask them about their particular strategy, or maybe if a particular attack is unpunishable or not. Otherwise, you may have to write it down and lab it out offline later. Remembering your theories (ie: a Dedede player this past week was owning me with well-timed fast-fall BAirs)... so that you can test them later in training mode is important.

IE: My theory is that a SH UAir will stuff Dedede's Bair on its startup. I lost the match, and probably will not face that opponent again for a long time. So I need to rely on my memory + training to figure it out later. My opponent did tell me that Dedede's Bair wasn't autocanceling, and that he uses it because its landing lag is nice, so these little tidbits help me out in the lab later.

 

[DunnoBro]

Playing against better players is only beneficial if you can understand why they are better. If you can't understand how to close the gap between you, you're nothing more than a sandbag, simple as that.

 

[visvim]

Learning Smash to me is about having a bunch of "little picture" moments that eventually will fill out the "big picture." If you can take what you learned from the match against this fair/bair-centric Ness and retain that knowledge going into other matches, you can continually augment your skill set. It might even be better to focus on dealing with a well executed aspect of a character's skill set rather than take on a "well-rounded" player who has perfected their entire arsenal.

Essentially, the "why" and "how" are more important than the simple fact that you won or lost.

 

[Raijinken]

It's useless if:

You're too new to grasp their techniques (more of an issue in, say, Melee, than in Smash4)
and if they also are unable to sandbag at all, or at least provide instruction and information instead of just whooping you over and over.

As long as both of those aren't simultaneously true, you'll learn a lot by playing and watching better players, provided you have decent analytical skills and can see chances for improvement.

 

[Deadzombie]

Just like the second commenter said. When you don't adapt it becomes counter productive. I've had ness's litterly whiff the most confusing things and I fall for them over and over. Out of rage. Like "oh is he gonna do PSY rocket this time? No way it's too punishable. And they do it..... Unbelievable"

 

[Sean²]

When that person mercilessly beats on you and says nothing.

Great players will want to attract more attention to the scene and tell you why you got punished/why you lost if you can't figure it out yourself. You have to do your part and adapt to the playstyle as well. It's a two way street.

 

[Ludiloco]

I play against a guy every week who has been playing competitive smash since Brawl, and he routinely can kick my butt with 90% of the cast because his fundamentals are just more developed than mine.

For perspective, I've been to two tournaments recently and finished top ten in both, lost in grand finals to the same guy in the first one.

But every week I get a little closer to taking games off of him.

 

[Sodo]

To me, it has to be kind of like a ladder. Playing someone a little better than me is beneficial, especially if I can take games off of them because it shows I'm adapting. When I'm playing someone with just better fundamentals that is going to beat me no matter what I do and they're 2 stocking me with little to no effort, that just shows that I need to practice and maybe find an opponent to apply those tactics on.