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What would it take for the game to be agressive?

SirHeru

Smash Rookie
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Jan 9, 2015
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SirHeru
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Hey Forum,

I've heard countless of times now, that the game is considered "defensive" because of it's mechanics.
What are these mechanics and what would it take for the game to reward aggresive playstyles?

I look forword to hearing from you guys. :3
 

_gold_

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
3,116
Not too sure. I guess it depends on the fighter and the person's playstyle.
 

Commander Fresh

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Let's get something out of the way first; as far as pure speed goes, Smash 4 and Melee are practically on the same boat. Fall speed and dash speeds are quite similar between the two, and the area with the most noticeable discrepancy at this point would be the mid-air speed of certain characters.

With that out of the way, what Smash 4 needs are mechanics less favouring to the defensive player. Heavy emphasis on rolling can decrease the excitement of the game. When you have no better alternative than rolling to act as a safe positioning tool, the invincibility it just so happens to also provide slows fights down quite nicely. Wavedashing is an example of a positioning tool that's seen as viable alternative to rolling in part because of the speed of execution and follow-ups. However, should the wavedashing player make a mistake (such as a bad read), it was very possible for the opponent to capitalize and initiate their own attack. Rolling not only takes more time before it is effective to counter attack, but it also takes more time for the rolling player to initiate their own attack as well. The whole match suddenly turns into a roll-fest because by the time one player is able to attack, the other one has entered their own roll and become invincible, forcing the first player to roll again to approach safely (and the cycle continues for a bit).

A more obvious one would be approach options. Grabbing out of shield is too viable the way the meta has currently developed, and the lack of any workarounds to getting grabbed spells out problems for those who are too aggressive in their approach. What this means is that Smash 4 is a game that emphasises punishing more (especially with grabs when one considers just how many follow-ups Smash 4 grabs provide); players wind up doing everything but approaching to get the opponent to make a mistake. This could mean a lot of the previously mentioned roll-fest. Melee had L-Cancelling and wavedashing among other mechanics to avoid getting grabbed as easily and providing methods of fast approach. That is not to say that these mechanics need to return in Smash 4; the mechanics introduced in Brawl have its unique characteristics to make it stand out from Melee. I'd love to see a competitive smash title (that's also fun to watch) that's not just Melee or Melee 2.0. Brawl's (and by extension, Smash 4) mechanics are far from impossible to work with; there are ways we can speed the game's fights up through reworking things like ending lag or sliding in shield.
 

Lemon Girl

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Nerfing shields probably, it's too easy to Powershield and they regenerate WAY too fast
 

SirHeru

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SirHeru
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So reducing shields to force the defensive player to read attacks and punish them, rather than shielding.

Also something I just came up with. I love how in Smash 4 edge hogging (right spelling?) is removed and everyone can cling to the edge now, but only one time until his invincibility is gone. Maybe it would be a good idea to reduce the invincibility of rolling in a similiar way.
 

Clavaat

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The game is what you make of it. Shield grabs are stong, yes. A very effective strategy now is cross-ups. They can't grab you if they're facing the other direction. Very very few characters can punish directly out of shield in the other direction. Also, shields break really early. Take advantage of this.

Rolls are incredibly punishable. Face them enough, and you'll know where they end up, every time. There are many characters with moves that span the length of a roll, and will punish it after invincibility.

And, as with most fighting games, it depends on the matchup. Take Samus vs. Bowser for instance. Samus is going to want to keep Bowser as far away as possible. Bowser is going to have to time is rolls carefully and use air dodges/safe landing. This is a "defensive" matchup, but I would compare it to Ryu vs. Zangief. The same general principles apply.

If you start looking at Smash 4 as a fighting game, you'll see the similarities in how it operates, offensively and defensively. Use your head.
 

HeavyLobster

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The game isn't quite as defensive as a lot of people are making it out to be, but it does skew more to the side of defense than it does for offense. The game really wouldn't need much outside of increased shield stun and decreased shield regeneration to make it fairly balanced, as right now shield pressure isn't all that rewarding, and a lot of moves aren't as safe on block as they should be because shield stun is pretty low.
 

Solo Popo

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They can't grab you if they're facing the other direction.
This is incorrect. You can easily tilt in the other direction to turn around and grab. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. It's rather amusing.
 
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SirHeru

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And what about the "rage-effect?" I've heard many people complained, that rage would make the game defensive as well saying "It punishes you for attacking by making the enemy stronger"
What do you think?
 

Saviorr

Smash Cadet
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Jan 26, 2015
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I like that the rage affect allows for earlier kills. As a Pikachu main I have found the rage mechanic to be very useful.

There are a lot of times where I just can't get a kill and end up over 100% with only one stock left while my opponent has two stocks left. In this situation going for a gimp or combo can be dangerous because if you mess up the next hit against Pikachu will likely end the match. The rage affect allows me to actually play a little safer by being able to kill with attacks that wouldn't normally kill.


I'm actually a bit annoyed with how unbalanced shield seems to be. At a tournament I went to recently I used Pikachu. Whenever I played against someone who used a character with a bad grab such as Link, I was easily able to just sit in shield knowing no attack could hurt me and no grab could surprise me. Matches that seemed difficult at first quickly became easy as soon as I used shield more and waited to be attacked.
 

Gawain

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The biggest problem the game has is shields if you want to be specific. They are WAY too strong and the shieldstun is laughably low. Very few attacks are actually safe on shield. The next big issue is spot dodges (and rolls to a lesser degree), which are also way too fast and have way too little lag at the end. Some characters can have their entire jab series mashed out of with spots. That's ridiculous. Seriously, for some characters, spotdodging and mashing downsmash is actually considered a solid strategy (Mario, Doc). It's silly.
 
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Clavaat

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This is incorrect. You can easily tilt in the other direction to turn around and grab. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. It's rather amusing.
Then you've gone too deep. You should know how long your hitboxes are on each of your moves and make contact far enough away to not incur a grab. I can't think of any character who can shieldgrab punish off of a cross up at max length.
 
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Duck SMASH!

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As everyone else said, shield regeneration is way too quick.
I also think characters need more attacks with less landing lag so that they're SAFER (not SAFE) on shield.
Smooth lander would definitely nerf the effectiveness of shields and increase offensive capabilities in many cases. But it also disrupts the balance between offense and defense that Sm4sh tries to achieve, slanting it towards offense, just like Melee did.
 
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