What to do in the neutral game with Fox?

[ItzzJak]

hey again guys.
So I feel like my neutral game with Fox is pretty jank so I was wondering if y'all could give me some tips or advice on what to do. At the moment all I'm doing is empty hops and throwing out a lot of back airs. I also do some foxtrot cancels here and there but is there anything else I should be doing?
Thanks a bunch to whoever replies.

 

[leesinger]

Fox's neutral b is great for racking up damage on enemies from a distance. It forces melee charachters to come engage you. You can then anticipate whether they want to grab you or dash attack you, etc and punish accordingly. Fox has a great neurtral game for that reason and also because he is so fast. I'd wager he has the best dash attack in the game. I usually try to condition people with dash attacks and then go in for grabs. Depending on DI you can get the f-air to up- air string, or if they airdodge a reverse back air will do the trick.

 

[tears in rain]

B-Airs and empty hops are a great way to passive aggressively play the game, especially when used correctly. Fox's strongest neutral moves are his Nair and Jabs. Did you know that, if you're quick enough, you can: Jab x 2 > short hop > n-air > fast fall > Jab x 2 ect - and they won't be able to touch you? If they shield your jabs, ect; then you didn't do it correctly. Jab x 2 > short hop > d-air > fast fall > jab > turn around and up-tilt is another way of wracking % while keeping your opponent frame trapped.

 

[luke_atyeo]

B-Airs and empty hops are a great way to passive aggressively play the game, especially when used correctly. Fox's strongest neutral moves are his Nair and Jabs. Did you know that, if you're quick enough, you can short hop > nair > fast fall > jab opponent - and they won't be able to touch you? If they shield your jabs, ect; then you didn't do it correctly. Jab x 2 > short hop > d-air > fast fall > jab > turn around and uptilt is another way of wracking % while keeping your opponent frame trapped.

oi, lets get this a bit more fleshed out.

short hop nair fast fall jab works on the opponent when?
not while they are shielding?
are you saying it works if the nair hits them? it couldnt frame trap their shield surely?
how late are you throwing out the nair?

"Jab x 2 > short hop > d-air > fast fall > jab > turn around and uptilt is another way of wracking % while keeping your opponent frame trapped"

does this work on shield too? on hit? like wheres the frame trap?

 

[tears in rain]

oi, lets get this a bit more fleshed out.

short hop nair fast fall jab works on the opponent when? at any percentage.

not while they are shielding? If they are shielding, you can't start the combo, of course. Before you do anything, you need to hit confirm with the start of said combo, which is the Jab. How to: A,A(Quickly) > did they shield it? No? > short hop > nair > fast fall. You should be doing the act of punching > jumping > landing, in the space of a second - just do it as fast as you can.

are you saying it works if the nair hits them? it couldnt frame trap their shield surely? to an extent it does frame trap them in their shield, but only if they aren't skilled enough to get out of it once they shield an attack.

how late are you throwing out the nair? nair must come out straight away, same with d-air. I use Y and A for short hopping nairs - I essentially just drag my thumb down over both Y and A quickly, and then fast fall it.

"Jab x 2 > short hop > d-air > fast fall > jab > turn around and uptilt is another way of wracking % while keeping your opponent frame trapped"

does this work on shield too? on hit? like wheres the frame trap? Pretty much everything in Fox's attacking kit synergies with itself. This one is generally harder to do in my opinion; the key to doing it successfully is learning the timing of Jab Locking - it is done by a very precise double tap (sets) of the A button. Failing to jab the enemy fast enough yields no frame trap, minus 50 points. Wait too long to start the next set of Jab Lock and you'll go into a full jab animation.

After learning to do that, you can move onto alternating between other attacks between your Jab Lock sets. Example: Jab x 2 > Jab x 2 > turn around Up-Tilt > turn around Jab x 2 > ?anything?

Remember to stay with your opponent as you're Jab Locking them as much as you can; move with them. D-Air needs to be stick buffered as well (unsure if name is correct? can't remember) = mash c-stick down right after you jump.

 

[luke_atyeo]

so you're telling me, if I fastfall nair onto their shield and get a jab out on the right frame, my nair cant be shield grabbed?
since when did this wizardry exist?

 

[tears in rain]

Ah, okay, I can see why there is confusion; I messed up the example You need to Jab Lock first. If they're at a lower percentage then you want to start with 3 sets of Jab Locks (A>A, A>A, A>A) and then n-air > ect. It doesn't have to be three, but to guarantee the n-air will hit you want to be very close to the opponent. and most of the time 3 sets of Jab Locks will do the job fine because of the fact that the Jabbing slowly moves you forward. Low percent = you want to ideally be on top of them.

At later percentages (depending on character) the timing for the Jab Lock becomes more lenient, or at least the opponent's hit stun is so high that it allows you to alternate with slower jabs as a mix up.

my nair cant be shield grabbed?
since when did this wizardry exist?

Actually, yes; sort of. Shield grabbing a n-air is prettyyyyyy hardd man - I don't see many people doing it. Prerequisite being that you have to be a distance away from your opponent and not on top of them; you want to glance them with the tip of your boot.

 

[luke_atyeo]

oh that, thats just spacing the nair properly, if you space it right and fade away during it most characters cant shield grab it, and if they try they whiff and get fsmashed in the face for their trouble, thats become such a staple of my game that players in my area have learnt to just sit in shield and wait for the fsmash and punish it, so I've had to learn to quickly mix up with a running grab instead of an fsmash.

but doing an nair right on top of them will get you grabbed everytime if you dont cross them up.

but yeah, I was confused because if its not a frame trap in neutral or on shield, then I dont get it.
What situations would you want to do this over just doing the jab lock repeatedly for damage, I guess characters that slowly fade out of it meaning you cant do it forever?

Ah, okay, I can see why there is confusion; I messed up the example You need to Jab Lock first. If they're at a lower percentage then you want to start with 3 sets of Jab Locks (A>A, A>A, A>A) and then n-air > ect. It doesn't have to be three, but to guarantee the n-air will hit you want to be very close to the opponent. and most of the time 3 sets of Jab Locks will do the job fine because of the fact that the Jabbing slowly moves you forward. Low percent = you want to ideally be on top of them.

is this on hit or on shield?

 

[tears in rain]

No, you can Nair on top of them and Jab them before they can shield if you're quick enough - please don't say you can't do this because this is how I play the game and I have numerous recording to serve as proof if necessary.

And no, it's not a frame trap if they shield - if they do anything after one of your attacks then you've dropped the frame trap.

Jab Lock does fade out, even at low percents; if you start at 0% they will move over you by 30ish%. D-Air is a safe way to build more damage. It builds damage quicker than using only Jab Locks. Switching up is required to avoid moves becoming stale.

 

[luke_atyeo]

No, you can Nair on top of them and Jab them before they can shield if you're quick enough - please don't say you can't do this because this is how I play the game and I have numerous recording to serve as proof if necessary.

nah thats not what I meant, you cant drop an nair right on top of them whilst they are already shielding, they have a chance to shield grab you if you do that.
Please tell me I am wrong because that would be an incredible tool for neutral game.


I feel like we are both somehow missing what the other is trying to convey :<

 

[elmike]

No, you can Nair on top of them and Jab them before they can shield if you're quick enough - please don't say you can't do this because this is how I play the game and I have numerous recording to serve as proof if necessary.

I would really like to see those videos! It could be very helpful for the community!

 

[tears in rain]

nah thats not what I meant, you cant drop an nair right on top of them whilst they are already shielding, they have a chance to shield grab you if you do that.
Please tell me I am wrong because that would be an incredible tool for neutral game.


I feel like we are both somehow missing what the other is trying to convey :<

Ok, I agree with what you're saying. If you're right on top of them and they're shielding, then doing any attack would be fruitless. However, like we both have said in this thread; you cake poke their shield with nair if you space yourself well - and yea, hopefully this solves the confusion Thanks for the questions, by the way.

@ elmike , I've been in the lab with PP, with the advent of being able to upload replays to youtube, it's been made a lot easier; maybe soon~
If I find a good example of what you want then I'll upload a mini clip here.

 

[Legato]

I strongly suggest you watch megafox. He has the best neutral game I have seen so far imo. Mostly space Nair well and you are on your way to success.

Megafox usually tries to get behind opponents which is a great idea, cross up Nair or Bair can be really good if used well. Pivot grab also is good for punishing landings. Good luck!