What should be buffed in the patch for Palutena?

[Lakuto]

So I saw a lot of people complaining about some of Palutena's move. This thread is all about what could the next patch do to buff Palutena overall.

Be sure to be "somewhat realistic" about your predictions and/or to make your point for each of them.

Maybe there won't be any buff for her (I'm ok whatever happens) but, on the Wii Fit Trainer forum, they started a thread just like this one week or so before the patch and almost all of the prediction were true! Moreover, there were more buffs than expected. So let's cross fingers together.

I'll start with only one thing:
- I wish Ftilt could have less endlag (and 1-3 frames less startup). I mean, gosh, this move as more FAF than her Fsmash.

 

[PHP]

If I could buff one move it would definitely be forward tilt, Seriously there's no reason to ever use this move over F-Smash. The worst part is the BKB and KBG doesn't work at all with the move. It lacks hit boxes, it's much too slow for a tilt, and it's easily punishable even if you hit the damn move. I think changing her forward tilt from frame 17 > 11 and make
it a multi-hit move like nair (11% damage total) and give the last hit more BKB and less ending lag so it actually has utility. Any other buff imo would be a bonus. I identical to her Nair FAF 68 > 55,

More BKB and counter frames activation 9 > 7, FAF (attack) 75 > 55, sour spot removed

Let the tip of down tilt lower so it can hit opponents on the ledge

Landing lag on Nair 20 > 15 and make it capable of putting the opponent in tumble state ( that requires teching )

FAF on down smash 72 > 68, HB active 17 > 15-16 increase windbox range and BKB to match F-Smash, extend the hitbox horizontally so it matches the animation and so the tip of the wings have a hitbox

Make the projectiles on AR come out faster 30-36-42 > 15-21-27 FAF 68 > 54, BKB 20 > 40 KBG 42 > 50

Reflect more BKB 10 > 30 FAF 56 > 40, longer barrier duration

Up b slightly more invincibility 16-31 > 11 > 31, FAF 67 > 50

Increase back throw KBG 70 > 100 Sakurai angle > 51°

Decrease Dash attack FAF 52 > 45 Damage 9% > 10%

Slightly faster air movement

Jab activation 8 > 7 FAF 26 > 19

Up throw KBG 60 > 80, Damage output 8% > 10%

Forward smash HB active 18-19 > 15-16, FAF 67 > 57, increase size of hitboxes by several units

Down tilt HB active 14-24 > 10-20

Up tilt FAF 68 > 40

wpwood @AeroLink_the_SoulMaster @TheRealPalutena I think I went a little overboard...

 

[Hydde]

nah man, u are right

all those moves u listed need dear mprovement...specially her forward tilt and that ugly useless counter

 

[wpwood]

I'm glad you addressed the issue of FAF and start up. That's all I want for now. (Frame 4 jab *fingers crossed*). Although a movement buff would be great, but RIP b/c lightweight and the game isn't balanced solely around 1v1 default.

 

[PHP]

I'm glad you addressed the issue of FAF and start up. That's all I want for now. (Frame 4 jab *fingers crossed*). Although a movement buff would be great, but RIP b/c lightweight and the game isn't balanced solely around 1v1 default.

Her jab would be broken if it was frame 4 lol

 

[Merfect]

PHP's list is good. Another thing I'd like is a bit less endlag on Utilt just so it's a bit less punishable.

 

[Claxus]

B-Air having increased knockback to KO a good bit earlier.

Either Forward or Down Smash should become a stronger KO move... or at least have them match the wings as a hitbox.

F-Air should have a sweetspot? Doesn't the game even say Palutena's F-Air has a stronger sweetspot? Not on KO levels of sweetspot, but just a tiny boost to knockback and damage... but the most useful thing about it would be extra shieldstun.

F-Tilt needs some overhaul... what was suggested above sounds good.

Without entirely changing Palutena's playstyle, I think those small changes would help her a lot. She ultimately lacks KO options, and safe attacks for footsies.

 

[Lakuto]

B-Air having increased knockback to KO a good bit earlier.

I think Bair is good. Increasing knockback would be too much considering the move has invicibility frames. Plus, it would be safer on shield. Imo, would be too much...

 

[Claxus]

I think Bair is good. Increasing knockback would be too much considering the move has invicibility frames. Plus, it would be safer on shield. Imo, would be too much...

You're probably right. I forgot about how it's already decent against shields... But Palutena is seriously lacking in horizontal KO power. Enemies live to 160%+ easily if you don't gimp them (or hit them really close to an edge), U-Air, or can get a good Smash Attack read. Even her Forward and Down Smashes are really weak for how slow and laggy they are overall.

I get her B-Air has amazing priority (and a guard point), but many other characters have really good KO B-Airs in their own ways. Palutena's has good properties, but it still requires a good amount of effort to hit with since its range is pretty small. I dunno, there could be another way to go about it, I just think she needs a more decent way to KO horizontally. There's something wrong with a character that can only KO before 120% with U-Air or reads, when she's below average in practically every way.

 

[Dinoman96]

You're probably right. I forgot about how it's already decent against shields... But Palutena is seriously lacking in horizontal KO power. Enemies live to 160%+ easily if you don't gimp them (or hit them really close to an edge), U-Air, or can get a good Smash Attack read. Even her Forward and Down Smashes are really weak for how slow and laggy they are overall.

I get her B-Air has amazing priority (and a guard point), but many other characters have really good KO B-Airs in their own ways. Palutena's has good properties, but it still requires a good amount of effort to hit with since its range is pretty small. I dunno, there could be another way to go about it, I just think she needs a more decent way to KO horizontally. There's something wrong with a character that can only KO before 120% with U-Air or reads, when she's below average in practically every way.

The problem is, considering she's built around using customs, making her back air kill way earlier would be outrageous in conjunction with Super Speed, considering the hitbox on it lets her follow up with a b-air. It'd just give her yet another crazy and instantaneous kill-confirm, which she already has with Lightweight and even Super Speed (SS -> Up Air or Up Smash)

 

[MzNetta]

top 5 wants from the balance patch:

5. Swap Counter with SS or even Celestial Firework in the default moveset. At the very least, fix it, Jesus.
4. A few more active frames for her Dair Spike.
3. Improved frame data on F-tilt and U-tilt. I'll take anything.
2. Less startup OR ending lag on F Smash and D Smash. Punishing both ends is just overcompensating and can be fixed.
1. Just ONE aerial that auto-cancels. I would prefer Bair but I will also accept Nair or Fair.

I have a theory that Sakurai is waiting until the very last balance patch to buff Palutena considerably and then never have to deal with it again.

 

[wpwood]

top 5 wants from the balance patch:

5. Swap Counter with SS or even Celestial Firework in the default moveset. At the very least, fix it, Jesus.
4. A few more active frames for her Dair Spike.
3. Improved frame data on F-tilt and U-tilt. I'll take anything.
2. Less startup OR ending lag on F Smash and D Smash. Punishing both ends is just overcompensating and can be fixed.
1. Just ONE aerial that auto-cancels. I would prefer Bair but I will also accept Nair or Fair.

I have a theory that Sakurai is waiting until the very last balance patch to buff Palutena considerably and then never have to deal with it again.

FYI Palutena has frame advantage when landing nair. Meaning dragging an opponent down with nair into the stage will allow Palutena to act first before the opponent. So it's sort of an auto-cancel. Works best on fast fallers and somewhat on floaties.

 

[Duplighost]

F-tilt needs much more range and hitboxes... you guys have pretty much covered that though. If I had to add anything else, I would allow this move to be angled, much like Mario can angle his f-tilt upward, normally, or downward. Palutena's f-tilt would be great for edge guarding (if angled) while she is standing on the ledge to stop characters like Fox, Mario, and Cloud from recovering.

Perhaps the same for u-tilt? While u-tilt is being used we could be able to move it slightly left and right, potentially stopping more characters from approaching in the air. Just a thought.

Reflect's "pushing" property should stay active the entire duration it is active. To clarify, an opponent can normally run right through Reflect while it's out, but if it were to push players back the entire time it was out there, it'd be even better for ledge guarding and more.

Hmm... everything else has been talked about. Just to emphasize, her awful Counter is seriously lacking. Either make it come out faster to stop combos, or make it do much more damage.

 

[PHP]

I've added a few things to the list for the following moves:

• Forward smash
• Down smash
• Counter
• Down tilt
• Up throw
• Jab
• Up b

Please read carefully

 

[Eisal]

The only thing I can think of myself is less delay overall on her attacks, everything is so easily punishable.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

FYI Palutena has frame advantage when landing nair. Meaning dragging an opponent down with nair into the stage will allow Palutena to act first before the opponent. So it's sort of an auto-cancel. Works best on fast fallers and somewhat on floaties.

Depends on where your opponent is when you land. lf they were caught in the top of the nair, l'm sure you've got a safe follow-up. lf they're below, it's way less safe.

 

[C3CC]

FIX COUNTER, for God's sake. Her Counter is useless. It has ZERO KO power.

Also decrease the absurd ending lag of her Smash moves. It's ridiculous how open she is after she uses one.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread and sorry if my english isn't on point sometimes.
Framesource is this Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/palutena-data-research-repository.416799/#post-20862804

My personal bufflist for Palutena:

Jab: The hitbox comes out 2 frames faster so that it hits on frame 6 and not frame 8. The FAF is now 24frames and not 26frames. If i'm not mistaken this should ensure the grab after the jab even against fast jabs like falcon's.

Palutenas Jab is really great. It has range and leads to grabs but it's a frame8 jab and that just sucks.


Ftilt: In my personal opinion the ftilt is beyond help so my only change to this would be a few frames less endlag.

Utilt: Utilt should come out 1-2 Frames faster and make it so that it true combos into upair in really low percents like 0-15%

Dtilt: The dtilt should come out 3 frames earlier and i suggest a angle change so that it knocks the opponent above Palutena.
It should combo in low percents into utilt for a dtilt->Utilt->upair combo that would be nice for damage racking. Her only real Combos revolves around grab but it's somewhat lacking in the damage output.

It doesn't kill unless in high percents on the ledge so why not make it a combotool like ike's dtilt?

Fsmash:
Let it come out 4 frames earlier and let it have like 10frames less endlag+slightly stronger Windbox

Dsmash:
The Dsmash has no real use so the only change i would make is that the angle on the whole dsmash is the same like that on the tip.

Upsmash:
This is without a doubt her best smash.
It should come out 5 frames earlier+the light has a hitbox the moment it comes out. I hate it when i'm kicked in the face and my opponent goes right through the light unharmed+like fsmash 10frames or so less endlag.

Dash-Attack:
Just give it slightly more KBG.

Fair:
The fair is fine

Bair:
1% more damage

Upair:
Like 12Frames less landing lag. The Landing lag for it is ridiculous.

Dair:
Much less endlag in the air it's ridiculous again! It's a nice move but the FAF is so damn long that it's not really nice and will likely kill you if you accidentelly fastfall with it.

Nair:
It should come out on Frame3 so that it cann act as combobreaker or a "get-off-me"-Move.

Neutralb:
Should have less endlag and sligthly more range.

Sideb:
Make the pushback effect stronger or let it function like Pit's Orbitar so that no one can get through.
It comes out 1 frame faster.

Upb:
Just let her snap the ledge safely. It's too easy to intercept with spikes, bair's and long lasting hitboxes. Somehow she can get hit before snapping the ledge and the only 2 frames vulnerability....if you know what i mean.

Downb:
Her counter is to damn slow for how bad it is. Let it come out 3-4 frames faster.

Backthrow:
Slightly increased KBG so that it kills slightly earlier.

Downthrow:
The angle should be changed so that Nair or upair is true. In higher percents like 80-90% fair or Bair should still be true but not necessary upair.

I don't have something to say to other throws.

 

[PHP]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread and sorry if my english isn't on point sometimes.
Framesource is this Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/palutena-data-research-repository.416799/#post-20862804

My personal bufflist for Palutena:

Jab: The hitbox comes out 2 frames faster so that it hits on frame 6 and not frame 8. The FAF is now 24frames and not 26frames. If i'm not mistaken this should ensure the grab after the jab even against fast jabs like falcon's.

Palutenas Jab is really great. It has range and leads to grabs but it's a frame8 jab and that just sucks.


Ftilt: In my personal opinion the ftilt is beyond help so my only change to this would be a few frames less endlag.

Utilt: Utilt should come out 1-2 Frames faster and make it so that it true combos into upair in really low percents like 0-15%

Dtilt: The dtilt should come out 3 frames earlier and i suggest a angle change so that it knocks the opponent above Palutena.
It should combo in low percents into utilt for a dtilt->Utilt->upair combo that would be nice for damage racking. Her only real Combos revolves around grab but it's somewhat lacking in the damage output.

It doesn't kill unless in high percents on the ledge so why not make it a combotool like ike's dtilt?

Fsmash:
Let it come out 4 frames earlier and let it have like 10frames less endlag+slightly stronger Windbox

Dsmash:
The Dsmash has no real use so the only change i would make is that the angle on the whole dsmash is the same like that on the tip.

Upsmash:
This is without a doubt her best smash.
It should come out 5 frames earlier+the light has a hitbox the moment it comes out. I hate it when i'm kicked in the face and my opponent goes right through the light unharmed+like fsmash 10frames or so less endlag.

Dash-Attack:
Just give it slightly more KBG.

Fair:
The fair is fine

Bair:
1% more damage

Upair:
Like 12Frames less landing lag. The Landing lag for it is ridiculous.

Dair:
Much less endlag in the air it's ridiculous again! It's a nice move but the FAF is so damn long that it's not really nice and will likely kill you if you accidentelly fastfall with it.

Nair:
It should come out on Frame3 so that it cann act as combobreaker or a "get-off-me"-Move.

Neutralb:
Should have less endlag and sligthly more range.

Sideb:
Make the pushback effect stronger or let it function like Pit's Orbitar so that no one can get through.
It comes out 1 frame faster.

Upb:
Just let her snap the ledge safely. It's too easy to intercept with spikes, bair's and long lasting hitboxes. Somehow she can get hit before snapping the ledge and the only 2 frames vulnerability....if you know what i mean.

Downb:
Her counter is to damn slow for how bad it is. Let it come out 3-4 frames faster.

Backthrow:
Slightly increased KBG so that it kills slightly earlier.

Downthrow:
The angle should be changed so that Nair or upair is true. In higher percents like 80-90% fair or Bair should still be true but not necessary upair.

I don't have something to say to other throws.

I like your list more than mine tbh. In my list I buffed her too much. The only 3 things I don't agree with is up smash, down tilt, and down smash. Up smash has so much lag is so it doesn't combo after down throw at 80-90% which makes it a little broken. Down tilt is a last resort kill move that works effectively as a safe read at the ledge and the sour spot already pops opponents upward into up air and forward air, but it's only possible to hit off ledge vulnerability. And down smash needs less end lag. Other than that it's perfect.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

PHP

This with upsmash makes sense sadly i have to agree with you. The idea with dtilt sounded pretty good in my head i guess this comes down to preference and the dsmash....i just don't use it so i don't really care hehe.

It's nice to hear that you mostly agree with my list.

 

[_Darkpit_]

Dear Palutena mainer, dear Palutena players!

Sorry to post this but I need all of you.I think you all know of the counter problem with Lady Palutena. Thats why I prepared a video for you! I would develope more videos like that. Because of the counter bug its impossible to counter against the opponent. That can't be true!!!! In my opinion we should team upI My suggestion is that we write to Nintendo e-mails. What do you think?

Here is my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kvWQmtvw9I

You can spread it in Youtube, Facebook, Miiverse (Palutena >SUPPORT< Community). I'm online to tell you that. I need all of you to reach this aim. Bayonetta was nerfed (edited) too!


Do you agree? Another suggestions?