What happened to wavedashing?

[FlamingForce]

So maybe Im just going about this entirely the wrong way but I've been unable to get out a PM wavedash that doesn't look like I'm not leaving the ground, the mechanic also feels very different from Melee, no matter how quickly I do the inputs the whole thing feels slower and much shorter and far less effective, I've been trying it out with the icies (Melee main) and Luigi, is wavedashing somehow fundamentally different in PM or am I just seeing things? I've got the technique down perfectly pat in Melee so I'm a little confused.

Also while I'm at it, is hitstun longer in this game compared to Melee, I feel like it is, certain followups seem like they could never ever happen in Melee.

 

[Y-L]

I've also noticed it is easier to WD on melee. However I find myself having a much easier time SHing (with harder characters to do it with like Fox) than in melee. Is there a reason for this?

WDing isn't really a big deal to me for characters that have decent to good WD's. I'm overall really used to it now. So it might just be a bit of getting used to it.

EDIT: I wonder if it has anything to do with the 1 frame physics delay.

 

[roman5hero]

it feels the same to me and looks the same to me. shrug

 

[GP&B]

Can't think of any reason why WDing would be easier, but SHing reads 1 additional frame after jumpsquat in Brawl/PM so a 2 frame jumpsquat like Fox's is actually 3 now (without necessarily taking longer to get off the ground).

I'm sure that's not technically accurate (pretty sure DrinkingFood's coming swing by and textdump the real reason), but I know that short hops in general are slightly easier in PM for sure.

 

[Paradoxium]

Ive also found it easier to wavedash with fox in melee, but these are 2 different games. The difficulty of wavedashing all comes down to practice

 

[Geth Drips]

For some reason, I can WD fine with the heavier and fast falling characters, but WDing with say, Zelda (my main) is a lot trickier (even though her WD is pretty meh anyway). I botch like 50% of my WDs with any floaty character, but thats probably just me. Any tips to correct this would be greatly appreciated. Can't comment much on Melee, I play it but not all that much.

 

[Guilu]

For some reason, I can WD fine with the heavier and fast falling characters, but WDing with say, Zelda (my main) is a lot trickier (even though her WD is pretty meh anyway). I botch like 50% of my WDs with any floaty character, but thats probably just me. Any tips to correct this would be greatly appreciated. Can't comment much on Melee, I play it but not all that much.

There's some time between when you hit the button and when your character actually leaves the ground, and that time varies between characters. The problem you're likely having is that you're hitting the guard button during jumpsquat because you're used to the timing for faster jumping characters.

 

[Geth Drips]

There's some time between when you hit the button and when your character actually leaves the ground, and that time varies between characters. The problem you're likely having is that you're hitting the guard button during jumpsquat because you're used to the timing for faster jumping characters.

Ahh I see, that sounds right. I did notice the timing was ever so different when using Fox for example compared to Zelda, guess I just needed to have somebody actually tell me that. Thanks!

 

[Broasty]

Seems the same to me, at least, as a Luigi main. If you do the WD right, you won't leave the ground. But you gotta be perfect on that timing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So maybe Im just going about this entirely the wrong way but I've been unable to get out a PM wavedash that doesn't look like I'm not leaving the ground, the mechanic also feels very different from Melee, no matter how quickly I do the inputs the whole thing feels slower and much shorter and far less effective, I've been trying it out with the icies (Melee main) and Luigi, is wavedashing somehow fundamentally different in PM or am I just seeing things? I've got the technique down perfectly pat in Melee so I'm a little confused.

Also while I'm at it, is hitstun longer in this game compared to Melee, I feel like it is, certain followups seem like they could never ever happen in Melee.

I thought I already explained this to you in the netplay IRC
Brawl, and thus Project M, has an unfortunate... glitch? Design? Whatever it is... that causes changes in momentum to be delayed by one frame. Other actions like animations and hatbox timings come out when they are supposed to, but momentum change a are delayed by one frame. Because of this, after you jump from a wavedash, even tho the air dodge starts the first frame you're airborne, like in Melee, the momentum from it does not. In Melee you land the same frame you would have been airborne because the air dodge's momentum makes you land back on the ground that same frame. In PM the air dodge's momentum makes you land in the second frame, making you airborne for a frame.
I tested this in frame advance, comparing Melee to PM to confirm.
Essentially the only difference is that your wavedash takes 1 frame longer to act out of. It's like if you were wavedashing as a character with a 1 frame slower jumpstart animation. The distance you gain from the wavedash is the same.

Also, hitstun in PM is identical to Melee. But more characters probably have decent follow ups on floaties because there are now more viable floaties. Plus if you're more used to Melee, you're probably more used to DIing properly for more character's attacks, whereas in PM most moves knockback angles are probably less familiar to you. On top of that, there are moves with animations designed as such to confuse your DI directions. A lot of character's throws especially, where good DI for one quick throw gives terrible DI for another quick throw, enabling the thrower to mix it up and eventually get bad DI out of the victim.

(pretty sure DrinkingFood's coming swing by and textdump the real reason)

Woah wtf
I didn't even read rest of the thread until after I posted
How did you know

 

[FlamingForce]

\

The distance you gain from the wavedash is the same.

Yeah see and thats what I just can't agree with here because every possible combination of timing and control stick angle simply doesn't seem to be giving me the distance that I'm used to, no matter what I try the whole thing is just slower and clunkier compared to Melee.

 

[MonkUnit]

Can't think of any reason why WDing would be easier, but SHing reads 1 additional frame after jumpsquat in Brawl/PM so a 2 frame jumpsquat like Fox's is actually 3 now (without necessarily taking longer to get off the ground).

I'm sure that's not technically accurate (pretty sure DrinkingFood's coming swing by and textdump the real reason), but I know that short hops in general are slightly easier in PM for sure.

Fox actually has a 3 frame jumpstart, not 2. No character has a 2 frame jumpstart.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah see and thats what I just can't agree with here because every possible combination of timing and control stick angle simply doesn't seem to be giving me the distance that I'm used to, no matter what I try the whole thing is just slower and clunkier compared to Melee.

I don't have that problem. I get the same distance.
Are you playing with Melee on widescreen but the wrong ratio? That distorts distance and makes WDs seem better than they are.
You may also be getting the wrong difference because you're focusing too much on doing it perfectly instead of relying on more-accurate muscle memory.
It's easy to find something wrong when you're looking for it. You're finding the wrong thing though. The values for friction and airdodge momentum have been ported from Melee, they could only have the same wavedash distance.

 

[Celestis]

The distance is the same, though I still feel more consistent with the distance in Melee. With Luigi, my wave dashes end p shorter more annoyingly often, but in melee that dose not really happen. Though, I know Luigi can Wave Dash just as far in PM cause I do get him to do it, just not consistently. it is annoying and stops me from using Luigi even though hes one of my favorites to use in Melee.
It only seems to effect me on Luigi, though.

But I can see Vist and such players use him no problem, so its clearly all on me why I can't do it.