What happened? Falco Melee to PM, buffs and nerfs

[Blazing Seraph]

So as I am sure many falco mains agree, Project M Falco feels completely different from the beloved Melee Sweet Tweet (Pun intended) that was Falco. So I have to ask, why do you think he feels so distant? >or<

 

[WinterShorts]

Well, since PM is a mod of brawl the modders can't exactly change EVERYTHING from brawl to melee that's for sure. Or maybe it's because they wanted to balance the roster in PM since Falco was one of the more powerful characters in melee.

 

[Lizalfos]

He is exactly the same, all differences are perceived in your mind. There may be some minor things related to physics, but they are working to make Falco closer to Melee if anything. I doubt we'll ever see actual changes to Falco.

P:M Falco is actually better due to the addition of small things that carry over from Brawl, but do not change how he was in Melee.
These things are...

• DACUS
• Gatling combo
• RAR
• Wavebouncing and B-reversals
• Footstools

You could ignore these things entirely and play Falco exactly the way you would in Melee, but I advise against that.

Maybe the perceived difference is due to changes in other characters, not ones in Falco.

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Well, that I understand (Marth being a prime example). But still people say he is right behind fox tier wise and use wise, while I find him significantly watered down. There are far less aggressive falcos (at least that I've seen) and I am very curious to find whether it is namely the engine changes or a completely new style of play attributed to Project M.

 

[WinterShorts]

Well, that I understand (Marth being a prime example). But still people say he is right behind fox tier wise and use wise, while I find him significantly watered down. There are far less aggressive falcos (at least that I've seen) and I am very curious to find whether it is namely the engine changes or a completely new style of play attributed to Project M.

Well apparently people like Fox's speed rather than Falco's speed sacrificed in favor of a little bit more strength. Are you sure when you say "far less aggressive falcos" you mean Falcos spamming their laser more often?

 

[Lizalfos]

For starters, there are few Falco mains that are at the level of being on stream and winning large tournaments in P:M.
Right now the metagame is jank because the game is new, but once it dies down Falco will still be High tier.
His lasers alone are strong enough to ensure him that.

The engine has been made to be 1:1 Melee, but there are some things that I've seen in gifs where in rare cases somthing may be just 1 frame off. The PMDT has always tried to make these things more like Melee and from what I've seen they have always wanted to fix it are interested in understanding the difference. It really shouldn't affect your play and I don't think I've seen any of these minor problems attributed to Falco.

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Well apparently people like Fox's speed rather than Falco's speed sacrificed in favor of a little bit more strength. Are you sure when you say "far less aggressive falcos" you mean Falcos spamming their laser more often?

The combos are watered down, and many Falcos today only play punish game. Perhaps it could be players adapting to new weights for new characters? By aggressive I mean doing more Dair->Shine->Nair->Etc.

 

[Lizalfos]

The combos are the same, you just have to combo more characters with Marth, Sheik, or Jiggs falling speeds instead of
FAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAXFAX

 

[WinterShorts]

The combos are watered down, and many Falcos today only play punish game. Perhaps it could be players adapting to new weights for new characters? By aggressive I mean doing more Dair->Shine->Nair->Etc.

It could be Falco adapting. PM isn't the exact same thing as Melee, and unlike Melee, PM has all these movesets that seem like they're far different than in a regular smash game (ex. Bowser jump-canceling out of his ground pound). PM Falco probably has more competition that's all. Now that you brought that up I just wanted to do the same.

 

[Blazing Seraph]

True. I hope more Falco players move on up to Project M, bringing their tricks and combos with them. The upcoming recovery nerfs will finally put Shiek, Squirtle, and Falco a little higher up on that beautiful tournament stage.

 

[WinterShorts]

True. I hope more Falco players move on up to Project M, bringing their tricks and combos with them. The upcoming recovery nerfs will finally put Shiek, Squirtle, and Falco a little higher up on that beautiful tournament stage.

Well, as for Falco players I've seen, or in this case fought, there's a guy named @ JDavisR (NIX) who happens to be really good with Falco. Maybe he can tell you an opinion or 2.

 

[Lizalfos]

I've seen Porkchop a lot, he seems to get good placings. Recovery nerfs definitely work to Melee veterans favors (unless you are a G&W main, sorrynotsorry).

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Thanks a lot! I will keep these things in mind and check out JDavisR. Melee vets, we need you to bring the hype further than ever!

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Glad to see some falco players progress to PM, I thought those were a dying breed lol

 

[WinterShorts]

Glad to see some falco players progress to PM, I thought those were a dying breed lol

Who knows. Maybe it's increasing. I'm starting to play Falco more than "every now and then".

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Who knows. Maybe it's increasing. I'm starting to play Falco more that "every now and then".

I smell a ditto in the future, I don't believe we've ever gone falco v falco. Should be fun

 

[WinterShorts]

I smell a ditto in the future, I don't believe we've ever gone falco v falco. Should be fun

Well.......you're Falco is probably gonna do better. You clearly have more experience whereas when I play Falco, theres a 50% chance that i actually use my shine, and the other 50% is just me spamming lasers and Dair XD

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Well.......you're Falco is probably gonna do better. You clearly have more experience whereas when I play Falco, theres a 50% chance that i actually use my shine, and the other 50% is just me spamming lasers and Dair XD

I guess I have been playing falco for 7 months now, you're right.

 

[HK_Spadez]

falco feels slower than in melee. i always thought its cause brawl model for falco is bigger in comparison to the melee falco model.

 

[Kankato]

falco feels slower than in melee. i always thought its cause brawl model for falco is bigger in comparison to the melee falco model.

Nope, they shrunk the brawl models to match melee sizes. It's all in your head.

 

[0RLY]

Falco can sh side-b immediately onstage towards the ledge and grab it backwards. You can use this to catch sloppy returns from the ledge and combo it into lhdl and do whatever you want from there.

 

[Player -0]

Nope, they shrunk the brawl models to match melee sizes. It's all in your head.

I don't believe they did this.

 

[Kankato]

I don't believe they did this.

They did. Check the size of the characters relative to battlefield & Smashville in brawl, then Project M. The PM characters are smaller.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They did. Check the size of the characters relative to battlefield & Smashville in brawl, then Project M. The PM characters are smaller.

Stages are also bigger than in Melee, I don't think they fixed character models yet.

 

[Kankato]

Stages are also bigger than in Melee, I don't think they fixed character models yet.

Which stages in particular?

 

[Rᴏb]

Stages are also bigger than in Melee, I don't think they fixed character models yet.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'm not 100% sure and only read it somewhere, but if it is true stages which were taken from Brawl also changed while for example Dreamland etc. were kept the same

 

[Taytertot]

I appreciate that many players would like to go back to the falco roots, but I feel like with PM being a mod made largely around the competitive scene, why not try to change falco so that he doesn't feel so much like a slightly slower slightly stronger version of fox. I guess I don't see the point in the repetition. For example, I enjoy the changes made to roy to make him feel more like a character more based on getting in and being aggressive where marth is more about keeping foes at a distance with the tippered moves. Yes Roy and Marth have many similarities but the moveset was changed enough to change the general strategy and mindset of the character. So why make falco another fox character?

 

[Player -0]

Falco isn't a Fox character. I feel like you haven't played the game at a deep enough level to understand the difference. Also because Melee.

 

[Taytertot]

Maybe your right. I'll watch some more falco PM matches and play him some more. It just doesn't feel like he's far off from playing the fox game.

 

[Boomhound]

Falco may be a student of the spacy style of fighting but he's still very much his own character.
Personally I prefer how he feels in PM also. The only 'nerf' he's had is the fact that the majority of the PM cast have strong recovery options, and for a character that's always been stage-control oriented and has Dair to edge-guard I don't feel like it's the endv the world for him. Falco players just have to adapt to more characters' neutral games to stay on top, the difference is that laser pressure and Dair-shine to counter approaches won't be your best option as often anymore.

 

[Phaiyte]

This thread is beyond the boundaries of what would be called ******** by any stretch of the word.

 

[robosteven]

Is Falco's up-b shorter than it was in Melee, or am I imagining things?

 

[Blazing Seraph]

Is Falco's up-b shorter than it was in Melee, or am I imagining things?

It does not retain momentum like in Melee, though I do not know the exact distance of melee's, theoretically yes, it is shorter.

 

[robosteven]

It does not retain momentum like in Melee, though I do not know the exact distance of melee's, theoretically yes, it is shorter.

Hoping they fix that, then Falco will be perfect.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Hoping they fix that, then Falco will be perfect.

needs frame 1 iframe on shine
that ish hurted

 

[Sir Tundra]

From what I'm seeing and from what I experienced Falco in melee is a lot better than he was in Project M. Sure he got all the tools he got from melee to project M as well as some of his best tools from brawl like Dacus, RaR, and gatling combo but a lot of character's have been buffed in ridiculous levels that falco can't compete. Not to mention he can get 0-death all over the place by pit and mewtwo like you're facing marth in Final destination.. But in every stage stage, can be easily gimped by the likes of mario who only has to use his cape. the list goes on and on that I could make a 4 paragraph essay on why falco suffers in project M. In general falco needs a buff for the next version which include:

Shrinking the size model... Because of falco's size in project M falco's a lot harder to control and feels way harder to combo with than in melee.

Giving him ssb4 recovery(this is for both fox and falco).. Alright now before some of you even say that falco would be OP in project M think about it for a moment.... alot of characters in Project M pretty much got there recovery buffed and are at/above melee fox's and falco's level plus they can easily be thrown around the place like your always on FD and gimp. Now in melee falco in can kill pretty easily,had ridiculous combo potential, and can only be comboed/chain grabbed at FD so it was only natural that he was going to have a terrible recovery. But that's not the case in project M as certain characters like pit, mewtwo, sonic, and diddy kong can't be comboed so easily and can punish falco pretty hard till the point that he'll just lose a stock if he messes up once. Therefore having SSB4 recovery is for the best and can make falco really good. Though I wouldn't make it have the distance of the side b as long as fox and have as long as his side b is in melee.. but have up's b distance in ssb4.


Edit: I think I might have had a huge explanation for the recovery segment compared to the size segment but still you all get my point. P.S everything else about falco is fine in project M his size and recovery are my only gripes with him in Project M

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Does the frame one invincibility removal only bother me..?

 

[robosteven]

Does the frame one invincibility removal only bother me..?

Nope, me too. It's a small thing, but I don't get why they'd nerf the spacies at all. Even with the invincibility on shine, they'd be doing just as well in tourneys as they are now, maybe slightly better, but not significantly enough that they'd be dominating everything.