What happends if a tournament match is finished with a Ganon/Bowsercide?

[Dr. Krumm]

Both players are down on their last stock and Bowser or Ganondorf finish the game with a suicide, taking the opponent with them.

Who wins? Does the rules clearify what happends in this scenario?

 

[Rood]

I heard that Bowser/Ganon would win. Not sure if that's true but I remember reading it somewhere.

 

[Gifts]

It can vary from tournament to tournament.

For example the last tournament I attended stated.

Brawl Ruleset:
* 3 stock, 8:00 minute timer
* Items OFF and NONE
* Meta Knight’s infinite dimensional cape tactic is banned. All other infinites and chain grabs are legal.
* The Ledge Grab Limit is 35 for all characters. If a game goes to time and one player exceeds the Ledge Grab Limit, they automatically lose the game. If both players exceed the Ledge Grab Limit, then this rule is ignored.
* If the Ledge Grab Limit does not declare one player the winner, the winner will be declared by what the game says in all situations, except for when players are presented with sudden death:
** If a game goes to time, the player who has less percentage wins.
** If the match ends with both players dying at the same time coincidentally, or if time ran out with both players at equal percent, a 1 stock 3:00 minute rematch will be played on the same stage with a Ledge Grab Limit of 15 for all characters.
* The act of stalling is banned: intentionally making the game unplayable such as becoming invisible, continuing infinites, chain grabs, or uninterrupted moves past 300%, and reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you.
* Dave's Stupid Rule: You cannot counterpick any stage you have won on in a set unless agreed upon by the opponent.

However there have been some tournaments that also state who ever initiated the the move that made both players die at the same time wins.

If you are attending a tournament check with the Tournament Organizer first, it should also be listed under "Brawl Rules" in the original post of the tournament thread.

 

[Ghostbone]

If it goes to sudden death, a rematch is played (1 stock 3 minutes usually)
If it goes to the results screen, whoever the results say wins is the victor.

 

[-LzR-]

In Finland the guy who performs the suicide kill wins. I think that's perfectly fair though it's not what the game says.

 

[Ghostbone]

In Finland the guy who performs the suicide kill wins. I think that's perfectly fair though it's not what the game says.

It's not really "fair", they didn't earn the victory.
It's like saying that if Jiggs lands a rest in the game she wins just because we think she deserves the victory. (maybe not that extreme, lets say that the opponent must suicide if jiggs lands a rest and it doesn't kill, just because we think that would be fair for jiggs.

Another analogy would be if snake blows him and the opponent up with a C4 or something, they die off the top and Snake dies off the side, why would you give Snake the victory?

 

[Gifts]

It's not really "fair", they didn't earn the victory.
It's like saying that if Jiggs lands a rest in the game she wins just because we think she deserves the victory. (maybe not that extreme, lets say that the opponent must suicide if jiggs lands a rest and it doesn't kill, just because we think that would be fair for jiggs.

Another analogy would be if snake blows him and the opponent up with a C4 or something, they die off the top and Snake dies off the side, why would you give Snake the victory?

Actually those are VERY bad analogy's. Please don't use Red Herring's as a basis of your counter argument. Jigglypuff isn't using a move to suicide herself and the opponent. And snake's C4 is DI able. You may use a counter argument and state that you can mash out of a DDD-side or a Kirby-side, and that is true but it is VERY visible if you do so, even near the blast zone.

It is honestly perfectly logical for the one who initiated the DDD/Kirby-side or the Ganon-side get's the win. However, as I stated, it is always up to the TO in the end since they are running the tournament.

 

[Ghostbone]

Actually those are VERY bad analogy's. Please don't use Red Herring's as a basis of your counter argument. Jigglypuff isn't using a move to suicide herself and the opponent. And snake's C4 is DI able. You may use a counter argument and state that you can mash out of a DDD-side or a Kirby-side, and that is true but it is VERY visible if you do so, even near the blast zone.

Why do suicide moves get special treatment.
I don't see the logical reason.
What's the difference between a game being tied due to a suicide move or a game being tied due to a double KO.
"Snake's C4 is DI able" right before you say that DDD and Kirby-cide's are mashable? What's the difference? Why doesn't Snake earn his victory when he "suicides himself and the opponent" by using grenades/C4s/Mines?

You're creating a new victory condition for the game of "If someone suicides with the opponent using a command grab, they win"
Why are command grabs special? Why do they deserve victory even though the game doesn't give it to them? What's the difference between them and double KO's or suicide gimps or really anything else in the game?
It's like me creating a rule that if someone completes 3 taunts they win.
The victory screen doesn't show me as winning, the game doesn't recognise that as a victory condition, so logically that would be a stupid rule yea? Same with giving the initiator of a suicide command grab the win.

It is honestly perfectly logical for the one who initiated the DDD/Kirby-side or the Ganon-side get's the win.

How is it logical? The game explicitly makes it a draw when DDD/Kirby get inhalecides, and the game explicitly makes Ganon lose when he gets a Ganon-cide against certain characters, or a draw against other characters. (afaik, though my memory is hazy, and ports might have some effect on it too that i can't remember, and it also might have to do with where ganon actually grabs the opponent)
Why should suiciding with the opponent be a victory condition, and not other random stuff in the game that doesn't actually lead to victory, like resting, or getting suicidal gimp kills where you die first, or some random advanced tech that's difficult. There's no logical reason to it, especially since it's something the game resolves itself in a different way already (usually a tie, Bowser wins in certain predictable scenarios while Ganon loses in certain scenarios).

However, as I stated, it is always up to the TO in the end since they are running the tournament.

/the TO can do anything technically.

 

[BSP]

I would go with the game's ruling. Sudden death= use sudden death rules.

 

[DLA]

I've both won and lost tournament sets because of differing Ganoncide rules. I'm a strong believer that Ganon should always win after a Ganoncide--which TOs choose as their rule more often than not--but you should make sure you know the rules before entering a tournament. It's usually listed as a clause in the ruleset.

 

[Gifts]

Why do suicide moves get special treatment.
I don't see the logical reason.
What's the difference between a game being tied due to a suicide move or a game being tied due to a double KO.
"Snake's C4 is DI able" right before you say that DDD and Kirby-cide's are mashable? What's the difference? Why doesn't Snake earn his victory when he "suicides himself and the opponent" by using grenades/C4s/Mines?

You're creating a new victory condition for the game of "If someone suicides with the opponent using a command grab, they win"
Why are command grabs special? Why do they deserve victory even though the game doesn't give it to them? What's the difference between them and double KO's or suicide gimps or really anything else in the game?
It's like me creating a rule that if someone completes 3 taunts they win.
The victory screen doesn't show me as winning, the game doesn't recognise that as a victory condition, so logically that would be a stupid rule yea? Same with giving the initiator of a suicide command grab the win.

How is it logical? The game explicitly makes it a draw when DDD/Kirby get inhalecides, and the game explicitly makes Ganon lose when he gets a Ganon-cide against certain characters, or a draw against other characters. (afaik, though my memory is hazy, and ports might have some effect on it too that i can't remember, and it also might have to do with where ganon actually grabs the opponent)
Why should suiciding with the opponent be a victory condition, and not other random stuff in the game that doesn't actually lead to victory, like resting, or getting suicidal gimp kills where you die first, or some random advanced tech that's difficult. There's no logical reason to it, especially since it's something the game resolves itself in a different way already (usually a tie, Bowser wins in certain predictable scenarios while Ganon loses in certain scenarios).


/the TO can do anything technically.

I can't honestly take your post seriously when you post **** like this...

It's like me creating a rule that if someone completes 3 taunts they win.

It makes your argument look like **** and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Once again, it is up to the TO's discretion on this ruling and it should be stated clearly in the Original Post of the tournament thread.

 

[Ghostbone]

I can't honestly take your post seriously when you post **** like this...


It makes your argument look like **** and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You're not actually making any counter-argument here, yet you're complaining that others aren't adding to the discussion?

Once again, it is up to the TO's discretion on this ruling and it should be stated clearly in the Original Post of the tournament thread.

Of course.

 

[Gifts]

You're not actually making any counter-argument here, yet you're complaining that others aren't adding to the discussion?


Of course.

? I'm not complaining that others aren't adding anything to the discussion. I stated that analogies like "3 taunts you win" and "jigglypuff landing a rest should mean the opponent should suicide" aren't the focus of this discussion and you are making them the center of the discussion. To tell you the truth I did have a long winded response to your post typed up and decided to not post it because you can not grasp to the fact that all this thread was asking is a simple question, the question was answered in multiple forms because there is no correct ruling for it because it varies from TO to TO. Yet you want to debate on if a Snake commits a double suicide and dies first he should be awarded the win? Only because I told you that your analogies was bad? LOL man get the **** out of here.

 

[salaboB]

Another analogy would be if snake blows him and the opponent up with a C4 or something, they die off the top and Snake dies off the side, why would you give Snake the victory?

A better problem case: If Snake blows himself and the opponent off the top, but one falls in the front and one falls in the back.

That being said, including that ganoncide results by the game vary based on which character he's doing it to argue strongly that a fixed rule is needed (You shouldn't get a free win against a ganoncide if you're one character but not another, in both cases Ganon landed the attack)

 

[metalmonstar]

It is up to the TO to decide how they will rule it. In truth there is not right answer. In a purest sense how the game decides is how the results are. So likely the suicider would lose unless it went to sudden death in which the TO would have you play a one stock overtime round. Though how often will a match really end with suicide at same percentage? Also going for the game determines who wins side is the, "Know your character argument." You should know simply by maining those characters that your suicide will cause a loss. On the other hand giving the win to those characters make sense because they initiated the last attack and their opponent was hit by it, IE the initiator controls the outcome of the match.

In my opinion I lean towards letting the game decide.

 

[TriforceOSM]

Why are command grabs special? Why do they deserve victory even though the game doesn't give it to them? What's the difference between them and double KO's or suicide gimps or really anything else in the game?

I know this topic is probably already finished but I'd like to clarify why this rule is justified and isn't an unfair advantage. The comparisons that you provided are more accidents or unnecessary risks that could be avoided.

For example, why would you C4 yourself and your opponent? Probably to b-air or u-air your opponent after the blast if it was intentional, but otherwise, it'd be completely accidental. And even if you did C4 to suicide kill your opponent, you still have a chance of living. It can't be considered a guaranteed suicide kill because you can DI the blast to survive it.

When Ganondorf, Kirby, DDD, or Bowser do a suicide kill, it's not guaranteed unless they KILL THEMSELVES. Ganon and Bowser have no choice in the matter, but DDD & Kirby can choose to opt out of theirs. This guaranteed death, if you take the risk to do this, is why it's justified.