What does the reappearance hitbox being moved to frame 2 and it being transcendent do for us?

[Sardonyx]

I expected Zelda to be improved at least slightly but we got that instead, so I guess we should discuss the change.

 

[Prynne]

Countering Teleburn (now teleslash for whatever reason) has become another 2 step process. Rather than 1. Shield, and then 2.Punish, it now goes something like...

Step 1:
Throw out active hitbox to beat teleburn

Step 2:
Watch Zelda cry

 

[Downdraft]

Countering Teleburn (now teleslash for whatever reason) has become another 2 step process. Rather than 1. Shield, and then 2.Punish, it now goes something like...

Step 1:
Throw out active hitbox to beat teleburn

Step 2:
Watch Zelda cry

Shh, we must not divulge that secret to the public lest we suffer more agony with the character.

 

[Mentor]

Now that I've cooled off from zelda having another nerf, my reaction is "eh". It means we'll need more of an emphasis on mind games & spacing & timing the tele-cancels better. Also, you can still just teleport into the opponent, you just can't use it as often. D-smash/shield overrides the up-b damage anyway so personally it doesn't change my game that much.

Can someone clarify what they mean by unclankable? Is that good or bad for us? Does that mean our hitbox is unclakable ie we always win or we always lose?

Also, what do you mean by transcendent? Do you mean transparent, as in zelda can now be seen while teleporting?

 

[Sardonyx]

Now that I've cooled off from zelda having another nerf, my reaction is "eh". It means we'll need more of an emphasis on mind games & spacing & timing the tele-cancels better. Also, you can still just teleport into the opponent, you just can't use it as often. D-smash/shield overrides the up-b damage anyway so personally it doesn't change my game that much.

Can someone clarify what they mean by unclankable? Is that good or bad for us? Does that mean our hitbox is unclakable ie we always win or we always lose?

Also, what do you mean by transcendent? Do you mean transparent, as in zelda can now be seen while teleporting?

We'll lose much more often now. If they throw out a hitbox when we reappear, it won't clank and we'll just get hit instead. Transcendent means it won't clank iirc.

Honestly this is such a useless and stupid change it's ridiculous.

 

[Arcalyth]

I read "unclankable" and thought it was better

But frame 2, yeah, didn't think about that one. Here's the thing though, you can still condition your opponent to throw out an attack which is potentially an even greater commitment than shielding. It adds a 3rd layer to her teleslash/teleshort mixup. Now you have to beat shield and attack, not just shield. Which can be beneficial. Punish the endlag of their attack, or punish shield as normal.

ALSO, if the opponent mistimes their attack (you can condition this with teleshort), they get hit by transcendent teleslash and you get a free followup.

I think this change actually adds depth to the character, and in a place where she is weak. It makes tele(burn) weaker, but makes teleshort stronger.

 

[Mentor]

@ Arcalyth Holy crap, you made me just realize something. The frame delay will mean the character will be in hit stun 1 frame later, meaning follow ups will be a tiny bit easier. I'd still counter this is a net nerf though. The ease of countering has fallen to the opponent's favor relative to zelda, and now that the opponent is aware of this change, the opponent should/will rarely shield when zelda starts up her teleport, as there is now no benefit to doing so as opposed to d/f-smash. Yes, you can condition and counter the attacks, but the better options are still to rarely shield & just wait it out. I'll admit this logic is a bit theoretical, so perhaps there's some good conditioning techniques I'm not aware of that can bait a shield/attack.

If unclankable meant near top priority, then ya this change would be a net buff. Like I said, it really shouldn't change your game very much unless you heavily use the ending hitbox.

Having said all that, there really should be a thread listing conditioning techniques w/ various attacks...

 

[justanull]

Transcendent means the attack hitbox passes through other hitboxes rather than trying to clank. Zelda's teleport ending now loses to every attack should it be out when she arrives.

Though maybe now that she's even more strictly bad than she was before, they'll buff her.

 

[Arcalyth]

She only loses if the hitbox is active on the same frame that she reappears. Otherwise she wins due to transcendent priority.

If the opponent mistimes their attack late, you win. Early and you teleshort and punish their endlag. If they throw out moves to preemptively cover your teleslash, then cancel and punish. If you get hit by a perfectly timed counterattack or you teleport into a lingering hitbox, then you were too predictable or deserved to get hit. Seems fair to me, and overall a buff to her approach game which she desperately needed.

Edit: sorry, let me flesh that out more. They can perfect counterattack which is obviously the best option for the opponent (good, rewards aggression from the opponent). This is where it seems everyone in this thread stops looking, and calls it a nerf. If you are consistently getting hit out of your teleslash, you are being too predictable. Vary the timing/angle/cancel. Once you do that, refer to the above. They mistime their attack and get punished.

Risk:Reward is pretty 50/50 in that regard. If they're confident that you'll teleport into their hitbox, they'll attack. If they're unconfident, it's much safer to just shield. If they shield, you get all of the usual counterplay from <3.6F.

Overall these changes add more depth to Zelda's ability to approach as well as the opponent's counterplay to approach. You can't really qualify that under the lens of "buff" v "nerf" but overall it's a good step for PM as a game and Zelda as a character.

 

[Rizner]

She only loses if the hitbox is active on the same frame that she reappears. Otherwise she wins due to transcendent priority.

If the opponent mistimes their attack late, you win. Early and you teleshort and punish their endlag. If they throw out moves to preemptively cover your teleslash, then cancel and punish. If you get hit by a perfectly timed counterattack or you teleport into a lingering hitbox, then you were too predictable or deserved to get hit. Seems fair to me, and overall a buff to her approach game which she desperately needed.

Edit: sorry, let me flesh that out more. They can perfect counterattack which is obviously the best option for the opponent (good, rewards aggression from the opponent). This is where it seems everyone in this thread stops looking, and calls it a nerf. If you are consistently getting hit out of your teleslash, you are being too predictable. Vary the timing/angle/cancel. Once you do that, refer to the above. They mistime their attack and get punished.

Risk:Reward is pretty 50/50 in that regard. If they're confident that you'll teleport into their hitbox, they'll attack. If they're unconfident, it's much safer to just shield. If they shield, you get all of the usual counterplay from <3.6F.

Overall these changes add more depth to Zelda's ability to approach as well as the opponent's counterplay to approach. You can't really qualify that under the lens of "buff" v "nerf" but overall it's a good step for PM as a game and Zelda as a character.

I'm not saying it's in a bad place now, but how do your options grow from this? Before you had the chance to clank if you were read, and still had the shorten to beat existing hitboxes and your attack hit them if nothing existed. Now you lose trades that are already out but there isn't something new which makes this better at all. I see it as a nerf, even if it is deserved or makes sense or anything like that

 

[otheusrex]

the transcendent vs clank thing is a nerf

 

[Zerudahime]

It is worse in every single way.
Just another nerf to a character that doesnt need it.
stop theory crafting how it can be considered good, because it isnt.

 

[Arcalyth]

I don't understand how transcendence is worse than clanking?

 

[ECHOnce]

I don't understand how transcendence is worse than clanking?

We've been buffed in terms of priority, but it's technically worse option-wise. We've now lost the option of teleporting into an active hitbox. That served the purpose of teleporting in and punishing them out of clang before they could react, or teleporting in and having the clang as a backup if you get hit unexpectedly by a hitbox (one that's weak enough to clang with FW2).

But...is it really that big of a deal? It was a suboptimal mixup option. I sincerely hope none of us were FW2ing so often that this change is gonna affect how we play. I mean...come on lol. Tele-cancel --> whiff punish is applicable in most of the same scenarios, and is far safer. The only time FW2 was actually safe was when they were definitely still in hitstun and they DI'ed far horizontally, and they just happened to end up in one of the two grounded teleport lengths. And in that scenario, nothing has changed.

 

[Rizner]

We've been buffed in terms of priority, but it's technically worse option-wise. We've now lost the option of teleporting into an active hitbox. That served the purpose of teleporting in and punishing them out of clang before they could react, or teleporting in and having the clang as a backup if you get hit unexpectedly by a hitbox (one that's weak enough to clang with FW2).

But...is it really that big of a deal? It was a suboptimal mixup option. I sincerely hope none of us were FW2ing so often that this change is gonna affect how we play. I mean...come on lol. Tele-cancel --> whiff punish is applicable in most of the same scenarios, and is far safer. The only time FW2 was actually safe was when they were definitely still in hitstun and they DI'ed far horizontally, and they just happened to end up in one of the two grounded teleport lengths. And in that scenario, nothing has changed.

It's not going to change how the character is played, but objectively it is worse overall. Even if it was an accidental clank that'd happen once every 4 sets you play, it has an effect however minimal.

Is it a big change? Not really. Is it a change? Yes. Is it worse? Yes. Much worse? No, not really. But even if we chose a bad option or accidentally went to a place where this would happen, it has a worse result.

I don't understand how transcendence is worse than clanking?

Imagine playing a Zelda ditto. You teleport into me and I dsmash on the correct frame. Previously, this would clank and we'd be close to eachother but nobody would be hit. Scramble happens, but we're for the sake of argument in a close-quarters neutral game.
Now, the FW2 would hit me, and the dsmash would hit you. I'll take that trade any day - you're doing minimal damage to me, minimal knockback. If you were recovering, you're now going to be thrown pretty far and possibly killed. You're also taking more damage.
It isn't necessarily a huge change because in the previous situation we aren't really playing for that option to happen. It does happen sometimes, but it isn't a goal - it's more of a backup on an option that they read our action but messed up a punish. Now it's just going to be a net loss trade in almost all options, unless the opponent tries to trade with a bad move or something goofy happens (I'm imagining like a jab to punish us, we're at 0% and they're at 70%. We'd probably be ok with that exchange)

 

[DrinkingFood]

if they are throwing out hitboxes to stop your telecancel... you can just telecancel early and punish the whiff lol
they could have always done this with aerials anyways- aerials typically interact with grounded moves/specials like transcendant moves anyways. The only difference is now they can do it with grounded moves too, which tend to not be active/lingering moves that you can just "throw out a hitbox" with well, like a sex kick would. This change doesn't really affect much, as they would have to be hard-reading when you are going to end your teleport and hit that location with a tilt/another quick move, which typically have less than a handful of active frames (inb4 GnW lol)

 

[Rizner]

if they are throwing out hitboxes to stop your telecancel... you can just telecancel early and punish the whiff lol
they could have always done this with aerials anyways- aerials typically interact with grounded moves/specials like transcendant moves anyways. The only difference is now they can do it with grounded moves too, which tend to not be active/lingering moves that you can just "throw out a hitbox" with well, like a sex kick would. This change doesn't really affect much, as they would have to be hard-reading when you are going to end your teleport and hit that location with a tilt/another quick move, which typically have less than a handful of active frames (inb4 GnW lol)

You always could do that, though. Right now it seems many don't see this as a nerf at all, but objectively it's straight up worse than before. Also this happens to me (or did happen to me) semi regularly, but to be fair there are like 6 GnW players in Cincinnati.
But it's also not a huge guessing game from them on timing - go to max range, time a good hitbox without tons of ending lag, and you're set. If I cancel early and dash to punish, your move should be over and you're safe. If I go full length, your hitbox gets me

 

[Sardonyx]

People will do mental acrobatics in order to justify nerfs to Zelda and not call them nerfs. She is vulnerable where she wasn't before and she can't clank with the reappearance, which means she will lost most trades. If they throw out a move, you have to cancel it near them and not get hit and land an attack and hopefully not get hit in the process.

If you try to punish with grab, that's 20 frames.
Dtilt - 17 frames
Jab - 23 frames

If they guess where you're going to be, they can just throw out a non laggy move or a meaty move and hit you out of cancel and teleport if they time it correctly.

The fact that it isn't a big deal and that's the problem. Why change that in the first place? It's such a small thing to change on a character that doesn't need anymore nerfs. It's honestly baffling.

 

[Rizner]

People will do mental acrobatics in order to justify nerfs to Zelda and not call them nerfs. She is vulnerable where she wasn't before and she can't clank with the reappearance, which means she will lost most trades. If they throw out a move, you have to cancel it near them and not get hit and land an attack and hopefully not get hit in the process.

If you try to punish with grab, that's 20 frames.
Dtilt - 17 frames
Jab - 23 frames

If they guess where you're going to be, they can just throw out a non laggy move or a meaty move and hit you out of cancel and teleport if they time it correctly.

The fact that it isn't a big deal and that's the problem. Why change that in the first place? It's such a small thing to change on a character that doesn't need anymore nerfs. It's honestly baffling.

To be honest I do understand it - it shifts the burden from being perfect on punish if you have a good read vs Zelda to be more on Zelda to not mess up. Not ideal for me as a Zelda, but I get it.
Having said that, Zelda has some pretty big issues which I would have liked to see addressed, and instead this was their area of focus on her going into the full release of 3.6 - feels like they didn't have much focus on her as a character overall

 

[Arcalyth]

There's still the long-standing question of how to address Zelda's issues without breaking her or drastically changing her kit. Any suggestions?

Edit: Hopeful that a discussion about REASONABLE changes will actually incite change at a future version. We did it over at the Sheik boards to get 3.5 throws back. Reasonable design changes are certainly worth of some amount of attention?

 

[4tlas]

Now, does transcendent mean it automatically beats all hitboxes it was going to collide with, or does it mean that it IGNORES all of those hitboxes? Because if its ignore, then I think this is a net nerf since grounded attacks will now trade. The few ways in which this is an improvement are a) hitting 1 frame later means hitstun lasts 1 frame later and b) super strong attacks (over 12% dmg) will now trade instead of beating teleslash. Oh I suppose c) Farore's Wind making a slash makes MUCH more sense than a burn.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Gonna throw this back into the pool and see how it swims. Zelda

 

[Prynne]

Now, does transcendent mean it automatically beats all hitboxes it was going to collide with, or does it mean that it IGNORES all of those hitboxes? Because if its ignore, then I think this is a net nerf since grounded attacks will now trade. The few ways in which this is an improvement are a) hitting 1 frame later means hitstun lasts 1 frame later and b) super strong attacks (over 12% dmg) will now trade instead of beating teleslash. Oh I suppose c) Farore's Wind making a slash makes MUCH more sense than a burn.

Transcendent hitboxes do not clank with other hitboxes, meaning that they pass through them. Most of Zelda's moves already possess this property.

 

[4tlas]

Transcendent hitboxes do not clank with other hitboxes, meaning that they pass through them. Most of Zelda's moves already possess this property.

They do? I thought only ftilt and Nayrus did. And you mean they ignore other hitboxes, so those pass through Zelda's as well, right?

 

[noobftw]

Zelda's uptilt as well I believe is transcendant and maybe up air.
Also it's interesting why they did it. I guess the idea of throwing out a hitbox at the end of the teleport and even though the opponent read the option they still lose.
Although I can see this being more of an issue against people with disjoints when they edgeguard us. We try to teleport above the stage to catch them off guard. But the marth/ike throws out an fsmash and they win the trade and kill us.
I don't think it affects the neutral as much as it affects other people edgeguarding us.

 

[ZombieBran]

People will do mental acrobatics in order to justify nerfs to Zelda and not call them nerfs.

I would sig this if I still actually played PM.

This is a petty nerf. It's indeed baffling and just another slap in the face.

 

[Prynne]

They do? I thought only ftilt and Nayrus did. And you mean they ignore other hitboxes, so those pass through Zelda's as well, right?

A lot of her moves have Transcendent priority.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data-3-6.339419/

In the charts, under the category that is titled "Clang," many of them read "False." These hitboxes have transcendent priority.

Edit: However, whether transcendent priority is good or bad is neither here nor there. It generally works well on Zelda, at least in the instances of her normals.

Edit 2: In the instance of the Farore's wind reappearance hitbox, it is most certainly bad.

 

[Sardonyx]

There's still the long-standing question of how to address Zelda's issues without breaking her or drastically changing her kit. Any suggestions?

Edit: Hopeful that a discussion about REASONABLE changes will actually incite change at a future version. We did it over at the Sheik boards to get 3.5 throws back. Reasonable design changes are certainly worth of some amount of attention?

I honestly don't know how to fix her issues without breaking her. I just have some ideas for some QoL stuff really.

1. Rework the priorities on her kicks so that the hip hitbox has the highest priority and the sweetspot is the second highest (stolen from @ Prynne )
2. Return the linking hit to usmash so the opponents can't fall out at all
3. Give dins it's old maneuverability back (adjustments to how it grows overtime and speed stuff would have to be implemented)

It just really feels like they don't care for zelda as a character at this point, just how people complain when they fight against her.

 

[4tlas]

I honestly don't know how to fix her issues without breaking her. I just have some ideas for some QoL stuff really.

1. Rework the priorities on her kicks so that the hip hitbox has the highest priority and the sweetspot is the second highest (stolen from @ Prynne )
2. Return the linking hit to usmash so the opponents can't fall out at all
3. Give dins it's old maneuverability back (adjustments to how it grows overtime and speed stuff would have to be implemented)

It just really feels like they don't care for zelda as a character at this point, just how people complain when they fight against her.

1 is already true I believe, 2 I think is intended, 3 I think would be oppressively good with the return mechanic.

She has at least a few bad options against almost everything, which I think is good design. The only scenario in which she has pretty much no option is approaching a wall since she has no sudden burst movement. Making dash attack go a little further is probably enough to make this acceptably bad instead of atrocious.

 

[Prynne]

1 is already true I believe, 2 I think is intended, 3 I think would be oppressively good with the return mechanic.

She has at least a few bad options against almost everything, which I think is good design. The only scenario in which she has pretty much no option is approaching a wall since she has no sudden burst movement. Making dash attack go a little further is probably enough to make this acceptably bad instead of atrocious.

1. It isn't.
2. I bet it is.
3. Probably wouldn't be.

 

[noobftw]

What I would do is change her jab back to 3.0 or at least make is 6 frames.Give her dtilt more knockback or hitstun so we can follow up on it more often. Make her wavedash or dash length a little longer to make us move a little better. And give her a second projectile or change din's somehow. I'd definitely would want telesnap back although I get why they took it out.
I would love to have one of the old dins along with the current din's. 3 gives absolute stage control and 1 din's is pretty poor for zelda so having two would be something I would like. Have the current side b and maybe change her down b to throw out one of the old 3.0 dins. That way we can control space better but still have bad options when pressured which is defined in a zoner type character.
I would possibly make her fthrow and dthrow like sheik's by making the dthrow faster so it's a better DI mix up so you can get more follow ups on throws.
With these changes she has a better neutral and can zone better without taking hits for throwing out a din's from halfway across the stage. She still has her flaw of being bad against disjointed characters. But won't be dash dance camped as easily anymore since there are two dins to alleviate that.

 

[Sardonyx]

1 is already true I believe, 2 I think is intended, 3 I think would be oppressively good with the return mechanic.

She has at least a few bad options against almost everything, which I think is good design. The only scenario in which she has pretty much no option is approaching a wall since she has no sudden burst movement. Making dash attack go a little further is probably enough to make this acceptably bad instead of atrocious.

Pretty much the sweetspot doesn't have priority over the hit boxes on her body, hence why if you hit with her toe now, instead of a critical heel, you get a flub

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I apologize if somebody already mentioned this point but I haven't see it yet. Where this change is really going to hurt Zelda is when she is recovering from below the stage. Since she can't truly sweetspot currently (when coming up) the opponent is going to be able to throw out a hitbox and get a free hit. Before the opponent's attack options were a bit more limited as they had to worry about what would work against that ending hitbox (type of move, damage, spacing, etc.) Now they can literally throw out any move of their choosing to punish Zelda.
I would be curious as to the reasoning behind this change. Let's compare how her Up B functions with other Up B moves. The invincibility during movement is almost completely unique to her with the exception of Mewtwo and a few other characters. Putting those differences aside, most Up Bs have an active hitbox and hurtbox at the same time. Standard methods to beat those moves include overpowering the hitbox (when possible), spacing a move that hits their hurtbox while keeping yours safe, or trading. With this change Zelda's Up B no longer follows this system either. I know general homogenization has been a recent theme for the PMDT so it is interesting that this change doesn't seem to follow that trend (as far as I can tell lol). Perhaps the change was made to reward the opponent for successfully predicting when the invincibility ends.

 

[4tlas]

Pretty much the sweetspot doesn't have priority over the hit boxes on her body, hence why if you hit with her toe now, instead of a critical heel, you get a flub

1. It isn't.
2. I bet it is.
3. Probably wouldn't be.

Since 3.5, there are 3 hitboxes on her lightning kick: hip, knee, and toe. Hip has highest priority, then toe, then knee. In 3.02 there were 4 hitboxes: hip, knee, toe, supersweet. Supersweet was highest, then hip, then toe, then knee. I distinctly remember having this discussion with Magus because I started flubbing all of the old critical heels due to the supersweet not existing to beat out the hip anymore, so large characters (like Bowser) cause deep kicks to flub instead of sweetspot.

I am pretty sure this is true, but it is possible I am remembering incorrectly or the data was wrong in the first place. I will try and find the post if necessary.

As for Dins maneuverability plus return being overwhelming, it would give an awful lot of control over where the return would occur. While I think the maneuverability would be fine further away from Zelda (making this move more offensive), I think giving it 3.02 maneuverability will make it an incredibly strong defensive option which PMDT seems to want to avoid.

I apologize if somebody already mentioned this point but I haven't see it yet. Where this change is really going to hurt Zelda is when she is recovering from below the stage. Since she can't truly sweetspot currently (when coming up) the opponent is going to be able to throw out a hitbox and get a free hit. Before the opponent's attack options were a bit more limited as they had to worry about what would work against that ending hitbox (type of move, damage, spacing, etc.) Now they can literally throw out any move of their choosing to punish Zelda.
I would be curious as to the reasoning behind this change. Let's compare how her Up B functions with other Up B moves. The invincibility during movement is almost completely unique to her with the exception of Mewtwo and a few other characters. Putting those differences aside, most Up Bs have an active hitbox and hurtbox at the same time. Standard methods to beat those moves include overpowering the hitbox (when possible), spacing a move that hits their hurtbox while keeping yours safe, or trading. With this change Zelda's Up B no longer follows this system either. I know general homogenization has been a recent theme for the PMDT so it is interesting that this change doesn't seem to follow that trend (as far as I can tell lol).

You can sweetspot by cancelling your upB at the proper height, so I don't think this change matters much there. I'm trying to think of a scenario in which being transcendent is a buff, but the only one I can think of is that now a 12+% attack will trade instead of beat out Zelda, and that is so marginal that I don't think that outweighs frame 2 causing all clanks to be trades. Happy its slash effect though.

 

[Prynne]

Since 3.5, there are 3 hitboxes on her lightning kick: hip, knee, and toe. Hip has highest priority, then toe, then knee. In 3.02 there were 4 hitboxes: hip, knee, toe, supersweet. Supersweet was highest, then hip, then toe, then knee. I distinctly remember having this discussion with Magus because I started flubbing all of the old critical heels due to the supersweet not existing to beat out the hip anymore, so large characters (like Bowser) cause deep kicks to flub instead of sweetspot.

Currently, priority on Lightning kicks is arranged as follows:

0 - innermost hip hitbox (highest priority) *not the sweetspot
1 - knee hitbox (second highest priority) *also not the sweetspot
2 - Foot hitbox (lowest priority) *Lightning kick

If you land with any hitbox other than the foot hitbox at any point when the move is out, it will flub.

I apologize if somebody already mentioned this point but I haven't see it yet. Where this change is really going to hurt Zelda is when she is recovering from below the stage. Since she can't truly sweetspot currently (when coming up) the opponent is going to be able to throw out a hitbox and get a free hit. Before the opponent's attack options were a bit more limited as they had to worry about what would work against that ending hitbox (type of move, damage, spacing, etc.) Now they can literally throw out any move of their choosing to punish Zelda.
I would be curious as to the reasoning behind this change. Let's compare how her Up B functions with other Up B moves. The invincibility during movement is almost completely unique to her with the exception of Mewtwo and a few other characters. Putting those differences aside, most Up Bs have an active hitbox and hurtbox at the same time. Standard methods to beat those moves include overpowering the hitbox (when possible), spacing a move that hits their hurtbox while keeping yours safe, or trading. With this change Zelda's Up B no longer follows this system either. I know general homogenization has been a recent theme for the PMDT so it is interesting that this change doesn't seem to follow that trend (as far as I can tell lol).

Oh hey! I've been wondering where you were. I know, it's strange, isn't it?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Since 3.5, there are 3 hitboxes on her lightning kick: hip, knee, and toe. Hip has highest priority, then toe, then knee. In 3.02 there were 4 hitboxes: hip, knee, toe, supersweet. Supersweet was highest, then hip, then toe, then knee. I distinctly remember having this discussion with Magus because I started flubbing all of the old critical heels due to the supersweet not existing to beat out the hip anymore, so large characters (like Bowser) cause deep kicks to flub instead of sweetspot.

I am pretty sure this is true, but it is possible I am remembering incorrectly or the data was wrong in the first place. I will try and find the post if necessary.

As for Dins maneuverability plus return being overwhelming, it would give an awful lot of control over where the return would occur. While I think the maneuverability would be fine further away from Zelda (making this move more offensive), I think giving it 3.02 maneuverability will make it an incredibly strong defensive option which PMDT seems to want to avoid.



You can sweetspot by cancelling your upB at the proper height, so I don't think this change matters much there. I'm trying to think of a scenario in which being transcendent is a buff, but the only one I can think of is that now a 12+% attack will trade instead of beat out Zelda, and that is so marginal that I don't think that outweighs frame 2 causing all clanks to be trades. Happy its slash effect though.

A bunch of us tried testing this awhile ago and we found it is extremely difficult if not impossible to truly sweetspot the ledge with the b cancel option. There are also moves that hit below the stage level and those will not be able to be avoided. Imo I think we will see this play out in a big way once people become aware of it but time will tell.

 

[Sardonyx]

It's honestly just feels like a salt related change. I could understand the changes from 3.02 -> 3.5 easily, but this one is literally just ?????

 

[4tlas]

Currently, priority on Lightning kicks is arranged as follows:

0 - innermost hip hitbox (highest priority) *not the sweetspot
1 - knee hitbox (second highest priority) *also not the sweetspot
2 - Foot hitbox (lowest priority) *Lightning kick

If you land with any hitbox other than the foot hitbox at any point when the move is out, it will flub.

How are you getting this data? I will try and go find the post Magus made in the meantime. It is also entirely possible I completely misread it somehow.

 

[4tlas]

Currently, priority on Lightning kicks is arranged as follows:

0 - innermost hip hitbox (highest priority) *not the sweetspot
1 - knee hitbox (second highest priority) *also not the sweetspot
2 - Foot hitbox (lowest priority) *Lightning kick

If you land with any hitbox other than the foot hitbox at any point when the move is out, it will flub.

Found it, and you were correct. This explains SO much. I've copypasted the post without quoting so Magus doesn't get silly notifications.


"Good opportunity to explain the kick differences I suppose:

Top is 3.02 and bottom 3.5. The green/blue middle sized ones on the body all have the same damage/KB, the tiny red one on the toe on 3.02 is the supersweetspot, and the largest yellow/orange on the toe on 3.02/3.5 are the 'melee' sweetspots. The initial 'melee' hitbox is stronger in 3.5 and roughly similar to melee kick's KB, with f-air keeping the slightly lower trajectory it's always had in PM to be a little more effective than melee f-air and b-air being pretty much the same KB as melee.

When multiple hitboxes connect on something at the same time the one that gets used depends on their priority, which is just the ID number used on the hitbox (lower ID = more priority).
3.02: Blue > Red > Green> Yellow
-Supersweet: Connect Red without connecting with Blue
-Sweet(-): Connect Yellow without connecting with any other hitbox
-Flub: Connect any part of Blue, or connect Green without connecting with Red

3.5: Blue > Green > Orange
-Sweet(+): Connect Orange without connecting with Blue/Green
-Flub: Connect any part of Blue/Green"