What do you think of aerial throws?

[BAMF]

I was just thinking it would be cool and convienient if you could grab and throw from the air. similar to grabing items when jumping you would use the Z button then just pick a direction to throw in.
Some characters like the larger ones could have like a kamakazie pile driver where they grab the opponent and dive towards the ground taking the enemy with them. I just thought this could be one thing to really reveloutionize the game play like when they added air dodge and sidestep in ssbm.

 

[bluekitsune13]

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I'm not sure how it would work though, and it might end up being too cheap where you can grab on to your opponent and then fall to your doom off the stage.

 

[NukeA6]

It could happen seeing how they're trying to improve aerial combat.

 

[Jigglymaster]

That would be the end of homerun contest. Unless they assign the midair catch to a different button.

 

[Rash]

The more options the better! I would love for aerial combat to become more complex and strategic; allowing a "grab" or "throw" move would do well to expand gameplay possibilities.

It'd also be nice if each character had its own unique mid-air execution of throws.

 

[MewMewKachooTwo]

You shouldn't be able to jump afterwards. As if you'd used your third jump.

 

[plasmawisp6633]

thats an awsome idea. it would create a new level to combos. It would be just like Kirby's Aerial Suplex Moves from Kirby Superstar.

 

[Yalow]

Yeah it would be fun, mainly for catching my cousin when she runs away when I fight her. It would be cool, like Rash said, if everyone had a different kind of throw. Kirby could suck someone up then spit them towards the ground. Mario could stomp on them in mid-air, Doctor Mario could shove a pill down their throat or something, lol.

 

[BeansDooma]

I can imagine jumping up, snagging your opponent midair, then spiking him into the ground for MASSIVE DAMAGE.

Or even spiking them to their doom off the ledge.

Nice idea.

 

[FoulQ]

It has its potential. However, I think it might be going a little too far from the roots of SSB(M) in that the air has never been nearly as crucial as the ground play. Also, I think it would be too easy to exploit the aerial grab unless the gamemakers spent a lot of time fixing up certain things. As one guy said (sorry I forgot his name), it might make it all the more easier to grab someone and have them fall to their death. Also, you might be able to shff(l) these aerial throws, which would make them dangerously strong in my opinion. You couldn't shieldgrab with aerial throws so it would seem to be a purely offensive manuever. However, on the other hand, the idea of aerial throws is an interesting concept, that, if implemented right, would revolutionize the way SSB is played, and add a whole new dynamic to the gameplay. So, personally, I could go either way on the topic.

 

[FooTemps]

... Aerial grab exists already. AND ONLY BOWSER CAN USE IT!

boozer = top teir!

ninja edit: Okay, now for my serious comment. As a couple people mentioned, aerial grabs would become pretty much a defense breaker. If air grabs/throws exist, shieldgrabbing would be obsolete. You could essientially jump in on your opponent and there'd be nothing he could do against you except wavedash backwards until you corner him. Air grabs would be way too abusable and would screw up the mechanics of the game.

 

[JLoc]

anything can be abuse so adding air grab shouldn't much a big deal imo. Its adding more depth why wouldn't you want that? I say yes to air grab and why not add in air shielding as well. This can help against those huge *** special.

 

[Sudai]

I say no to airgrabs because it would ruin a large aspect of Kirby and Jiggly's play. For those of you that don't know, thier best edge guard is jumping out over the abyss and tapping the opponent further and further out. With AirGrabs that would be negated and instead of just killing them, you kill yourself too because they'd airgrab and just fall.

 

[JLoc]

well thats there fault for trying to edge guard. if they're going to abuse the air grab(which they will) find a way counter the air grab either by dodging or able to recover at the right time. And what I mean by that is able to stop(or slow down) your self in midair (almost like dbz Budokai 3 with the ring out).

 

[FoulQ]

anything can be abuse so adding air grab shouldn't much a big deal imo. Its adding more depth why wouldn't you want that? I say yes to air grab and why not add in air shielding as well. This can help against those huge *** special.

Things can be "abuse," but not to the extent that airgrabbing could be. Things that can be abused in SSBM are usually limited to one character as well, such as waveshining. I don't think just shoving on new mechanics neccessarily adds more depth, because it would make the game unbalanced because aerial grabs would be extremely overpowered unless made amazingly well by the game makers. Air Shield? Please, airdodging is *sort of* an airshield already, and considering how you can't float in midair, airshieldgrabbing would be sort of difficult to pull off, I think. Air shielding just sounds dumb to me, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

What else might help against those specials is going to the item menu and turning them off.

 

[the problem]

naw i would like it cause yea it can be abused easly and the fact that some people use Z instead of A in air

 

[JLoc]

Things can be "abuse," but not to the extent that airgrabbing could be. Things that can be abused in SSBM are usually limited to one character as well, such as waveshining. I don't think just shoving on new mechanics neccessarily adds more depth, because it would make the game unbalanced because aerial grabs would be extremely overpowered unless made amazingly well by the game makers. Air Shield? Please, airdodging is *sort of* an airshield already, and considering how you can't float in midair, airshieldgrabbing would be sort of difficult to pull off, I think. Air shielding just sounds dumb to me, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.

What else might help against those specials is going to the item menu and turning them off.

Um, dodging is not the same as i can call it " air shielding" cause when you Dodge, you're invulnerable for 1 or maybe 2 sec and then you fall helplessly . as for air shielding(or a better saying air blocking ), You can block with the shield up while your going down in the air (kinda similar fox/falco but without the reflection) or just a acutally air block with out the shield you would just be open in your back side. It would be the same way you would input blockin on the ground.. I don't know how that would be difficult.

Air grabs can be very weaken so that it can be easier to get out of it. Or what I said in the other post able.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I say yes to air grabbing. But like above me said they would be overly abused, so weakwn them yes. Plus only a left or right throw should be availiable for AGs because
1. With a down AG a jiggly or kirby (or a suicidal person) could AG you as you are coming back to the stage.
2. An up AG could be abused by a 2.v.2 fight in which a teamate could go to their falling comrade and throw him up to the stage or near it.
So AGs yes, but weak and only <>

 

[odinm4gick]

Two things: Only Bowser can grab in the air and only DK can pick up and pile drive other characters, now why? CUZ THEY ARE BIG BICHES!!

 

[FoulQ]

Um, dodging is not the same as i can call it " air shielding" cause when you Dodge, you're invulnerable for 1 or maybe 2 sec and then you fall helplessly . as for air shielding(or a better saying air blocking ), You can block with the shield up while your going down in the air (kinda similar fox/falco but without the reflection) or just a acutally air block with out the shield you would just be open in your back side. It would be the same way you would input blockin on the ground.. I don't know how that would be difficult.

Air grabs can be very weaken so that it can be easier to get out of it. Or what I said in the other post able.

I think you missed out where I said it was *sort of* like it, considering how airdodging allows you to evade attacks for a few seconds, and shielding in the air wouldn't last much longer. To me it seems it would just be an improved airdodge with a different animation. I don't quite understand what you mean be "can be very weaken," but I'm guessing you refer to chainthrow airgrabs or something, because you said it would be easier to get out of? If you still had another jump or something, or when you grab you get your jumps back, you could just grab somebody to infinity off the screen, but I doubt that would be in the game. I still go with my theory that air grabs would be too good (most likely, anyway), because of their extreme versatility and the fact that every character would have them. I wouldn't mind if they improved Bowser's crappy airgrabbing to a level of importance in making it crucial to his gameplay, but adding this to every character might make other approaches seem pointless.

Sometimes it is kind of hard to understand what it is you are trying to say as well.

Edit: Also, I agree with the above poster about DK and Bowser

 

[FooTemps]

Alright... FoulQ and I both are trying to argue that air grabbing will be far to difficult to counter and defend against. Here is the reasoning set up through a scenario.

Two people are fighting, lets say Falco and Marth, on FD. Falco approaches Marth with SHL (short hop laser), and Marth choses to spot dodge. This puts Marth in a pinch because of the spot dodge delay. Falco runs in and SHFFLCs his N-air at Marth.
Marth now has 3 or 4 choices to defend against Falco:
1. Shield
2. Counter
3. Try and poke at Falco
4. Make space

Now moves that Falco can do against Marth's defense WITHOUT Air grab:
1. keep shfflc'ing/shine
2. do an empty shfflc and punish Marth
3. Jump over the d-tilt and proceed to punish
4. chase/regroup

Now moves that Falco can do against Marth's defense WITH Air grab:
1. Air grab/shine/shfflc more
2. Air grab/empty shfflc and punish
3. Air grab/ go over poke and punish
4. chase/regroup

As you can see, Falco has far more offensive options than Marth has defensive options. This would make the fight naturally unfair and unbalanced.

Scenario 2:
Marth vs Fox on FD. Marth gets fox into a chain grab.

Fox's options:
1. DI and hope Marth misses and tech
2. Hope to get a second jump and then drop in with a d-air/ run away
3. there is no hope!

Marth's options WITHOUT air grabs:
1. don't mess up and tipper fox
2. meet him with a u-air and out range him
3. chain grab + tipper to death combo

Marth's options WITH air grabs:
1. air grab to set up spacing for shfflc f-air or tipper f-smash/ don't mess up
2. wavedash backwards jump into Fox and air grab/ meet him with u-air and air grab him after hitting him with the u-air
3. chain grab + tipper to death combo or some new form of chain air grab + tipper to death combo

I could go on and on with this...

From the examples (yes, I know there are holes in them), you can see that offensive options are doubled while defensive options are cut in half. The only way to allow air grabbing is to allow a new form of defense to counter air grab.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

It should work in a way that's not really cheap:

When you grab someone, they can counter it during the first X frames (only air grabs) since you can't exactly do a sidestep in the air when you need your third jump to get back (counter would be the Z button, I guess, ala meteor cancel).
You can only throw left, right, and up.
Breaking out of air grabs would be easier than land grabs so that unless you grabbed and immediatly threw the person, the grab would fail if they whacked the control stick back and forth as usual (to avoid grab and falls).
Grabbing someone and then falling to the ground would make you lose hold of them (so you can't air grab grounded opponents and must play strategically to bounce them or catch them during SHFFL's, etc.)

 

[FooTemps]

It should work in a way that's not really cheap:

When you grab someone, they can counter it during the first X frames (only air grabs) since you can't exactly do a sidestep in the air when you need your third jump to get back (counter would be the Z button, I guess).
You can only throw left, right, and up.
Breaking out of air grabs would be easier than land grabs so that unless you grabbed and immediatly threw the person, the grab would fail if they whacked the control stick back and forth as usual (to avoid grab and falls).

That still isn't a fair enough solution.

As I said, (PRE GRAB) offensive options double while defensive options stay the same (/PRE GRAB). Post grab counters still give you damage. Whether it be from an immediate throw (which I would do in the case of continuing my chain grab/combo) or from breaking grab, you still get damage. Getting thrown will give you a ton more damage while breaking the grab will give you like 2%

Limiting throw directions doesn't do anything either. If you notice, chain throws can be done in multiple directions. It just depends on the timing for each character, and with so many characters, there is bound to be a character with Chain Air Grabs or Chain Ground to Air Grabs or Chain Air to Ground Grabs, etc.

 

[_the_sandman_]

I think only bulky characters should be able to throw in the air. Simply because they have the raw power to bend the rules of gameplay.

 

[JLoc]

I think you missed out where I said it was *sort of* like it, considering how airdodging allows you to evade attacks for a few seconds, and shielding in the air wouldn't last much longer. To me it seems it would just be an improved airdodge with a different animation. I don't quite understand what you mean be "can be very weaken," but I'm guessing you refer to chainthrow airgrabs or something, because you said it would be easier to get out of? If you still had another jump or something, or when you grab you get your jumps back, you could just grab somebody to infinity off the screen, but I doubt that would be in the game. I still go with my theory that air grabs would be too good (most likely, anyway), because of their extreme versatility and the fact that every character would have them. I wouldn't mind if they improved Bowser's crappy airgrabbing to a level of importance in making it crucial to his gameplay, but adding this to every character might make other approaches seem pointless.

Sometimes it is kind of hard to understand what it is you are trying to say as well.

Edit: Also, I agree with the above poster about DK and Bowser

Oh i know you said "sort of like" I'm still going to explain myself.

the only thing similar between air block and air dodging is that they're done in the air the timing can be very different. If your high in the air, you can air block all the way down you ground as for air dodging... your falling not able to do anything.


They already said that they were going to improve on the air combat, so why wouldn't they add air grabs? If they weaken throws by making the damage of the air throw very low or finding a way to stop yourself in mid air(again I bring up Dbz Budokai if any of guys ever any other type of fighting game). Or maybe reversal but I pretty sure a lot people would think that would be too much.

I do the see the reason of the above poster that explained(Footemps) how it would get abuse and such. If the developer(s) thinks about putting in the air grab and see those could be a big issue,I believe they'll try their best make it balance.

 

[BigRick]

Brawl doesn't need an airgrab feature, because there is no air shielding.

If they add air shielding, then you have the right to put an airgrab move in the game. But then you shouldn't be able to grab a grounded opponent.

 

[JLoc]

The only reason why I said airshielding or air blocking is because I'm trying to think of what else they can do to improve in ariel combat. combo are a given , air grabs and/or dodge grabs. The other I'm sure not going to be in there parrying, air dashing and reversal cause that doesn't seem too smash like.

 

[TDub301]

I think air grabs are a good idea and you should be able to throw in all directions with them. So what if people use them to KO, that's the point of the game. It should be balanced somehow, though. I let the developers worry about that, but it would be good to have air throws in my opinion.

 

[ImDaTroof]

If you throw down in the air though it would have to be like kirby's F-throw and B-throw where the person can break out of it.

 

[TDub301]

I agree, the character being thrown should be able to break out of it if they're quick enough. It should be easier to break out of an air throw than a ground throw, too. So that way it wouldn't be such a strategic advantage for an offensive player.

 

[Ryu777]

They will make the aerial play better by making it more like ssb64, crazy combos. but they should be harder than they were to do in ssb64. only Bowseer and Felix (hes gonna make it!) shpould be able to airgrab

 

[FoulQ]

Oh i know you said "sort of like" I'm still going to explain myself.

the only thing similar between air block and air dodging is that they're done in the air the timing can be very different. If your high in the air, you can air block all the way down you ground as for air dodging... your falling not able to do anything.

That's true. :\
Stil, the basis of the argument, if airgrabbing should be done or not, does not have neccessary relevance to airblocking because you can grab somebody who is shielding.

They already said that they were going to improve on the air combat, so why wouldn't they add air grabs?

I think me and FooTemps have explained this enough.

If they weaken throws by making the damage of the air throw very low or finding a way to stop yourself in mid air(again I bring up Dbz Budokai if any of guys ever any other type of fighting game). Or maybe reversal but I pretty sure a lot people would think that would be too much.

Exactly. Airgrabbing and how to counter the airgab should not become the sole first idea in people's minds when approaching or being approached.

I do the see the reason of the above poster that explained(Footemps) how it would get abuse and such. If the developer(s) thinks about putting in the air grab and see those could be a big issue,I believe they'll try their best make it balance.

Unfortunately, developers aren't perfect, and there is a high possibility, especially something of this caliber, to become extremely overpowered.

And if you want to make it underpowered to the extent of Bowser's sideB...well...I really don't think everyone should have Bowser's sideB, or a variation of it.

 

[JLoc]

Well the best that can be said is we have to wait and see. If we can gets some clip on a bit of gameplay, we might see wether or not the air grab is in.

 

[TDub301]

I know that I want at least some new attacks in gameplay. Air throws would be a good addition if they balance it right. They've done well with the other things, for the most part, so I'd put my faith in thinking that they can implement those in a good way as well. How many new techniques could they add? Air throws is a pretty logical next step. But as long as they add some new things then I'll be fine with it, I don't want to play melee with new characters and boards, I want more than that and we're entitled to more if it's on a new generation of hardware.

 

[Tinman]

Air throws are good but the ammount of time you have to hold them would be very short, to prevent kamikaze, air shielding is no, because all combos could easily be stopped, air dodging doesn't allow that, and the game would change to who can use the strongest moves than who can set up the wildest combos.

 

[THK]

I like the idea of air grabs, but without any "drivers", or maybe one or two chars with poor grab range could have it.

I'm just thinking of too many suicide spike opportunities.

 

[TDub301]

Well, think of it this way, say you've been fighting and you got a high percentage. You're almost done, but your opponent knocks you off the board and you're trying to make it back. He goes out to grab you either to finish you off or suicide KO you. Now, say the air grab is easy to get out of and on top of that, if someone air grabs you and you get out of it, you get your second jump back again. In that case, it would give you an advantage if you're quick enough to get out of the grab. So it depends on quick reflexes and skill for air grabs, that way it would be balanced and would add another element into gameplay. If it happened that way, in theory, people could keep battling in the air trying to air grab each other, if they got their second jump back after breaking out of an air grab, two really good smashers could keep going back in forth, sort of like in Dragonball GT for PS1 when you meteor smash each other.

 

[FooTemps]

Well, think of it this way, say you've been fighting and you got a high percentage. You're almost done, but your opponent knocks you off the board and you're trying to make it back. He goes out to grab you either to finish you off or suicide KO you. Now, say the air grab is easy to get out of and on top of that, if someone air grabs you and you get out of it, you get your second jump back again. In that case, it would give you an advantage if you're quick enough to get out of the grab. So it depends on quick reflexes and skill for air grabs, that way it would be balanced and would add another element into gameplay. If it happened that way, in theory, people could keep battling in the air trying to air grab each other, if they got their second jump back after breaking out of an air grab, two really good smashers could keep going back in forth, sort of like in Dragonball GT for PS1 when you meteor smash each other.

... or one player could totally dominate in the air and end it with a powerful f-air.

 

[IcEdUp414]

Airgrabbing, Nah its not worth it. Most of the fighting in SSB(M) goes with being able to combo in multiple shuffled attacks before killing the person. If airgrabs were made it'd totally cancel out shuffling since one shuffle in the air and you'd grab the person before he can attempt a second. Airgrabbing would ruin SSB. Period.

 

[Q Klilx]

If I could briefly expand this idea...

Someone mentioned that after an air grab, you'll be vulnerable in the same way you are after a triple jump, meaning you can't do anything unless "snapped out of it" or landed. Now, this will already make air grabs a bit trickier to use since the thrown opponent could recover and pummel you.

Someone also mentioned not allowing a downward air throw. This is a smart move because too many combos would come out of it. I do not believe air throws should be open to left, right, and up. I do not believe they should be open to up at all. If air grabs are to work to a fairer extent ("fairer" meaning this isn't full-proof), they should be limited to one direction, and rationally, the opposite would be good. A forward air throw would be too similar to a forward aerial, and an upward air throw would just be dumb.

If the character were to grab, then swing around and release the opponent, the aerial throws could be made to be less broken. The idea of getting out of an air grab, however...

Press a button, perhaps A, if you want to break an air grab. This is similar to breaking a grab in Tekken. If you press A in time, the air grab will be countered and suddenly you will have a split second of priority to strike back. This priority time, of course, is debateable.

As for the throw itself, like I said, it's basically a backwards throw. After it, your character will be in a slump until landing or attack, and your opponent will be busy flying away whatever distance is suitable for their damage. The throw, of course, will not be as powerful as a ground throw since the character lacks the ability to put leg power into the move.

Using this idea, or something similar, the air grab would prevent cheesy combos resulting from downward throws, suicides, kamikazes, edge guards via air grabs (read: forward air grabs), and would discourage players from abusing it due to the aftereffect of using the move. This is the best I can come up with, and really, if it can't be tweaked to work, I highly doubt air grabs would be a good addition to Brawl.