What do you guys think of Prince Pivots?

[dg-pilz-e]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjX8_hsuXtc

it's a melee tech that basically involves double jumping into the ground and creates various movement options, as well as different offensive and defensive options.

Do you guys think that this is a useful tech to learn? I've been practicing other things mostly but i'm kind of curious to see if anyone else is doing it and if it's worth learning

 

[Manaconda]

I have no idea why Prince named a tech that's been around for so long after himself. It's never had a specific name (I've heard Double Jump Land before) but it sure as hell isn't a "Prince Pivot". But whatever.

The weird movement thing is kind of cool, but when alongside dashdancing and wavedancing it doesn't add too much, especially in close quarters when dash dancing lets you turn yourself around much faster. It's still the fastest version of "wavedash down" in the game which is useful for situational intricate spacing. I can see Peach having a use for it but it looks to be more useful for faster characters like Yoshi whose movement is better and a bit harder to react to.

It gets her out of shield and on the ground the fastest. Being the basis for dsmash out of shield and dash, it sounds great but it's actually pretty slow with a hitbox coming out on frame 12 if done perfectly. I believe even MacD said on stream he thought it was too slow. You can also use it to grab out of shield behind you, also very slow but useful to keep in mind.

The only really useful things I see about it are crouch cancelling out of a dash or dash dance, turning around to attack out of a run/dash, being about to throw a turnip from your standing animation out of a run (and thus avoiding 8 million years of animation endlag), and using it to transition to wavedash --> edgehog, her fastest way to grab ledge.

It's definitely got uses, but the reason it's been known for so long but has seen relatively little use/is not discussed much is because it doesn't add THAT much to the table.

 

[ECHOnce]

Been a while since I last heard about the low float/whatever it's called. Decided to go lab up and experiment a bit, and found that you could get more optimal FC Nair pressure using the "low float." Low float can be started by either inputting a float just before you land, or by both double jumping and starting a float on the first airborne frame after jumpsquat ends. Idk it's actual name, but I'll just abbreviate it as LF for now (+LFC).

I've listed the optimal frame data for the following three below - Melee/PM FC Nair (14 frames), Melee LFC Nair (13 frames), and PM LFC Nair (12 frames). These are ordered by length, but it should be noted that the Melee LFC Nair is MUCH easier to use. I'll go into more detail as to why below the three sets of frame data, but TL;DR - Melee LFC does not require a fastfall input.

Spoiler: Optimal Melee/PM FC Nair

Frame 00: _____ (Stand/Dash/Shield)
Frame 01: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 02: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 03: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 04: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 05: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 06: _____ (Airborne)
Frame 07: (Airborne)
Frame 08: (Float)
Frame 09: _____ (FC Nair startup, FF)
Frame 10: _____ (FC Nair startup, FF)
Frame 11: _____ (FC Nair active hitbox, FF)
Frame 12: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 13: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 14: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 00: _____ (Landing lag)

*(Frame saved by PM LFC only is colored in PURPLE)
*(Frame saved by Melee AND PM LFCs is colored BLUE)
*(Float input frame colored in CYAN)
*(FC Nair input frame, FC Nair startup frames, and FC Nair active hitbox frames in ORANGE)

Spoiler: Optimal Melee LFC Nair

Frame 00: _____ (Stand/Dash/Shield)
Frame 01: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 02: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 03: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 04: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 05: _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 06: (Double jump)
Frame 07: (LF)
Frame 08: _____ (LFC Nair startup)
Frame 09: _____ (LFC Nair startup)
Frame 10: _____ (LFC Nair active hitbox)
Frame 11: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 12: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 13: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 00: _____ (Landing lag)

*(Frame saved by PM LFC is colored in PURPLE)
*(LF input frame colored in CYAN)
*(LFC Nair input frame, LFC Nair startup frames, and LFC Nair active hitbox frames in ORANGE)

Spoiler: Optimal PM LFC Nair

Frame 00: _____ (Stand/Dash/Shield)
Frame 01: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 02: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 03: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 04: _____ _____ (Jumpsquat)
Frame 05: (Jumpsquat)
Frame 06: (LF)
Frame 07: _____ (LFC Nair startup)
Frame 08: _____ (LFC Nair startup, FF)
Frame 09: _____ (LFC Nair active hitbox, FF)
Frame 10: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 11: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 12: _____ _____ (Landing lag)
Frame 00: _____ (Landing lag)

*(LF input frame colored in CYAN)
*(LFC Nair input frame, LFC Nair startup frames, and LFC Nair active hitbox frames in ORANGE)

Both Melee and PM LFCs (from a grounded character state) require a 1-frame input, but the timing is actually pretty easy to get down. Within 15min or so, I was getting 8/10 of my floats as LFs. I'm pretty sure double multishines took me at least an hour to get that comfortable. If this can be practiced into reasonable consistency - and it definitely feels like it could - this would be a quicker alternative to the "regular" optimal FC Nair.

As mentioned previously...since they have slightly different mechanics, the Melee/PM LFCs vary at two inputs:

1. In PM, if Peach is airborne and the jump button is released, inputting + on the same frame will initiate a "double jumped" float, or a float that receives (just the first frame's?) downwards momentum from the double jump. In Melee, the same input will initiate a regular float, with the double jump saved. To imitate the resulting action from PM, you have to press to double jump on one frame, and to interrupt it on the next. This is where Melee loses a frame to PM's LFC Nair.
   
   
2. In PM, Peach still has to fastfall LFC Nair for 2 frames after releasing the jump button (as opposed to 3 during "regular" FC Nair). In Melee, Peach does not have to fastfall at all; upon releasing the jump button to stop floating, she immediately enters landing lag. I initially believed this to be due to Melee and PM's SCD mechanics varying (during the first...14? frames of the airborne character state), but my knowledge on that is limited to how it leads to Melee NILs. Melee LFC still incurs 4 frames of regular landing lag, she's definitely not NILing, but I'm still pretty sure it has something to do with some other aspect of SCD.

And because Melee LFC Nair is able to skip the fastfall input, imo it's by far the easiest variation to speed up and maintain repetition with. Which is super super important - we all know how double multishines and one/two FC Nairs are kinda hard, but being able to repeat any more after that is much more difficult. And since LFCs shouldn't be thrown out in most situations - getting hit out of float without a double jump is pretty awful - I can only see it being used in repetition as shield pressure anyhow.
(EDIT: Here are what the inputs look like when lined up horizontally, for easier comparison):

Melee/PM FC: (hold) || .....................|| (release) || || (release) ||
.....Melee LFC: ...........|| (hold) || (release) || || (release)
..........PM LFC: ...........|| (hold) || (release) || || (release) ||